Elie Wiesel's sisters

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The Warden
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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby The Warden » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:25 pm)

joachim neander wrote: At many of these camps, those left were killed afterward. This did happen, to some extent, also at Auschwitz. At Gandersheim, those who declared themselves unfit for marching were told that they were brought to a hospital in town, but they were all killed (40 men) in a wood on the road. As this did not remain unnoticed by the locals, it is well documented. So, at any rate, it was a wise decision to go with the SS on evacuation and not to stay in the camp.


The topic of this thread is long passed, but...

Are you implying that the prisoners who went with the SS instead of staying behind were somehow aware of the fate of the alleged victims mentioned? Did they have access to the locals who supposedly witnessed the event? Or even more unbelievable, did the fleeing survivors have access to these alleged documents?

This simply sounds like the rumor mill at work. You make it sound as if there was a camp newsletter passed around so the prisoners could keep up on the latest happenings in and around the camps. :roll:
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby Trude » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:53 pm)

joachim neander wrote:
Trude wrote:I understand your numbers 1 and 2, but 3 and 4 are quite unclear to me. Can you be more definite about what you mean, please? Since you haven't read Wiesel's Night, or any of his other books, you can use Zisblatt's The Fifth Diamond as an example, if need be. We have both read that. Thanks.


ad 3) I would say she sees herself mainly as a "teacher" of the kids who she lectures. Her status as victims gives her the necessary authority.
ad 4) The kids shall feel empathy with her and all Holocaust victims as well as contempt for and disgust with the perpetrators. I do not see a call for action, nor for transfer these feelings to a situation in which the kids might be, e.g. mobbing against a minority in school, or a behavior expressing racial prejudices.


What kind of nonsense is this? I ask you originally why do you think Elie Wiesel and Irene Zisblatt lie about their experiences in Auschwitz, including their "tattoos?"

You answer with: "I analyze all testimonies - not only those from camp survivors - on four levels, according to the scheme developed in the theory of communication:
1) What does the author say are "facts"?
2) What does the author say about himself?
3) How does the author see himself in relation to the addressee?
4) What does the author want that the addressee shall do?

Then you say 3 means (in relation to Zisblatt) that she sees herself mainly as a "teacher" and 4) She wants the kids to feel empathy with her and all Holocaust victims as well as contempt for and with the perpetrators.

But even though she lies baldly about those she defines as "perpetrators," she does no real harm, in your estimation, because the kids don't "mob" the students who represent the "perpetrators."

Have you answered anything? No. It's obvious you say you have not read anything of Wiesel's so that you don't have to admit he's a fabricator as you had to admit about Zisblatt upon reading her book.

There is no one, especially a Holocaust historian such as yourself, who is unaware of the Elie Wiesel story as told by himself and his PR firms. Therefore you can't hide behind, "I have never read his books." I haven't read them either, but I still know a lot about them as you do also. Why does he lie, as Zisblatt does, about so many things? You seem to be saying it is to promote the Holocaust in any way that will cause others "to feel empathy with her/him and all Holocaust victims as well as contempt for the perpetrators."

Alright. Agreed. But you find no real fault in that? They need have no scruples in how they do it? Strange fellow you are, Joachim Neander. Consider if this is all they want, why do they insist on making so much money out of it, especially Wiesel, the multi-millionaire? And why are their lies so big, as well as silly and easily refuted? Couldn't they do a better job? Are they missing some aspects of morality, or intelligence, or character? Are they the kind of people anyone should be listening to?

You give yourself no credibility with such evasive, incomplete answers. But it is very professorial.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby Trude » 9 years 5 months ago (Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:01 pm)

SevenUp wrote:
joachim neander wrote:ad 4) The kids shall feel empathy with her and all Holocaust victims as well as contempt for and disgust with the perpetrators. I do not see a call for action, nor for transfer these feelings to a situation in which the kids might be, e.g. mobbing against a minority in school, or a behavior expressing racial prejudices.


Time to wake up. The purpose of the holohoax lies is to generate support the state of Israel while it ethnically cleanses Palestine.


I think you are right. It's very simple, isn't it.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 5 months ago (Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:22 pm)

SevenUp wrote:
joachim neander wrote:Those who survived were always among those who participated in the evacuation.


What an idiotic remark. The three most famous holohoax survivors are Elie Wiesel, Otto Frank, and Primo Levi. All were in Auschwitz hospitals when the Russian army approached. Wiesel left with the Nazis and survived, Frank and Levi stayed and survived.

joachim neander wrote: As this did not remain unnoticed by the locals, it is well documented. So, at any rate, it was a wise decision to go with the SS on evacuation and not to stay in the camp.


Since it was 'noticed' by the locals, I suppose the the grave has been identified and excavated? Or not?

ad 1) Please read a text before before condemning its author. "Those who survived" clearly relates to the prisoners of the camps that were mentioned before and interviewed by me.
ad 2) Of course the mass grave was excavated (by former NSDAP members, on order of the British military commander), the victims identified (with two errors that were later corrected) and reburied at the communal cemetery.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby Trude » 9 years 5 months ago (Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:50 pm)

joachim neander wrote: As this did not remain unnoticed by the locals, it is well documented. So, at any rate, it was a wise decision to go with the SS on evacuation and not to stay in the camp.


Since it was 'noticed' by the locals, I suppose the the grave has been identified and excavated? Or not?

Please read a text before before condemning its author. "Those who survived" clearly relates to the prisoners of the camps that were mentioned before and interviewed by me.
ad 2) Of course the mass grave was excavated (by former NSDAP members, on order of the British military commander), the victims identified (with two errors that were later corrected) and reburied at the communal cemetery.

You said this took place at Gandersheim. So is this the Gandersheim in lower Saxony? And was it proven how these 40 men were killed, and by whom? Of course, we know survivors are excellent resources, aren't they, and always give truthful testimony.

Just because "former NSDAP members," whoever they were, had to excavate the grave doesn't mean NSDAP members killed the occupants of it. We need much more information from your interviews and your concluding report to accept your example as meaningful. I only found Gandersheim in a long, long list of sub-camps under Buchenwald. http://www.holocaustrevealed.org/_domai ... camps2.htm
Are these all camps ... I doubt it.

Are we to simply take your word for things? We don't want to have to go and interview all these people ourselves to find out the truth of what you say; therefore you need to provide more convincing evidence, or don't use the example.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 5 months ago (Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:47 pm)

@ Trude:
I did year-long research, in archives at Hannover, Wolfenbüttel, Goslar, Bad Grund, Osterode, Clausthal-Zellerfeld, Oderhaus, Braunlage, Selters, Munich and Jerusalem in the Gandersheim case and interviewed dozens of eyewitnesses - of course critically examining their testimonies. It is absolutely impossible for me to present all documents at a Web forum. So you must either accept my findings or go to the sources yourself and try to interpret them according to another narrative. Of course it is up to you to reject all evidence that does not fit into a possible pre-conveived scheme.

You are right insofar as Gandersheim was a sub-camp of Buchenwald, established in October 1944 as a successor of the concentration camps Mielec and Wieliczka (in SE Poland). They were evacuated before the advancing red Army, and their "Aryan" prisoners, together with the machinery for building Heinkel fighter planes, were transferred to Bad Gandersheim in the Reich's interior. The camp had about 450 inmates, most of them sent there directly from Buchenwald. As it had not a single Jewish inmate, it is widely understudied. It was liquidated in the first days of April, 1945. The prisoners were marched across the Harz mountains toward the Elbe river, from there by train via Dresden-Prague-Pilsen to Dachau. Only a small fraction arrived there shortly before the liberation of Dachau. Among them was the French writer Robert Antelme (husband of - more famous - writer Marguerite Duras). Half dead, he was found by Francois Mitterand and smuggled out of the camp (the Americans had ordered Lagersperre for fear of spreading contagious diseases). After recovering, he wrote "L'espece humaine" about his camp experience, and his wife (they later divorced) wrote about his recovering in "La douleur."

There is of course much more material in the archives of Hannover and Wolfenbüttel, especially about the death march that went through the small town in which I had been living from 1982 to 1999. In 1992/93 interviewed dozens of individuals who, as adolescents, were witnesses of the death march, along its route from Gandersheim until Quedlinburg. Numerous single and mass graves on the road were excavated immediately after the end of the war, under the direction of a French forensic commission whose scrupulous reports are accessible in the Town Archive of Goslar. It was in nearly all cases possible to identify the persons and also to establish the cause of their death: shooting in the neck.

Two guards, an SS man and a Kapo (criminal prisoner), had a trial in 1947 before a German court, accused of accomplice to murder during the death march. Each got about 4 years of prison. The judgement is published in the series "Justiz und NS-Verbrechen." It contains valuable information about the killings en route.

Two mass killings took place during the evacuation of the camp. There was first the killing of the 40 sick prisoners who declared themselves unfit for marching. As I already mentioned, locals observed the killing and informed the authorities (German!). Until something could have done, Allied troops arrived. When Gandersheim, in June 1945, came under British military rule, the (British) authorities ordered an exhumation. Present was the already mentioned French forensic commission. It was not very difficult to identify the dead according to their clothes, camp numbers and other personal items. They were, as I also already mentioned, reburied at the town's cemetery, where a monument gives their names (with two errors, that were corrected later in the books, but not on the monument). Another mass killing occurred a few days later at the Bruchberg, just before a steep ascent in the mountains. Eleven prisoners who obviously were considered too weak were killed. American soldiers who arrived a few days later found the corpses still unburied. I should still have a photograph, but do not know how to post it at CODOH (if someone were interested in it). These eleven corpses received a burial at a special cemetery near the place of their death. They were shortly thereafter exhumed a second time and identified.

I myself did not publish about Gandersheim, apart from a small paper about the killing of a Jehovah's witness near Bad Grund and a young Italian who was killed at the Bruchberg. I did not want to disturb a colleague of mine, who was also working about Gandersheim (and who was a local of this town) and was preparing her PhD thesis. As I, at that time, was investigating Dora-Mittelbau, which seemed much more interesting, I left Gandersheim. In 2000, I sent all my material to a French researcher who was about to publish a book about Gandersheim (in French, of course).

Re. the NSDAP members: Of course nobody accused them of having killed the prisoners. But someone had to do the ghastly work of excavating and reburying the corpses. As sort of punishment for their membership in the Nazi party, they were primarily selected by the occupation authorities for this work.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby Trude » 9 years 5 months ago (Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:01 pm)

joachim neander wrote:@ Trude:
I did year-long research, in archives at Hannover, Wolfenbüttel, Goslar, Bad Grund, Osterode, Clausthal-Zellerfeld, Oderhaus, Braunlage, Selters, Munich and Jerusalem in the Gandersheim case and interviewed dozens of eyewitnesses - of course critically examining their testimonies.

Numerous single and mass graves on the road were excavated immediately after the end of the war, under the direction of a French forensic commission whose scrupulous reports are accessible in the Town Archive of Goslar. It was in nearly all cases possible to identify the persons and also to establish the cause of their death: shooting in the neck.


Re. the NSDAP members: Of course nobody accused them of having killed the prisoners. But someone had to do the ghastly work of excavating and reburying the corpses. As sort of punishment for their membership in the Nazi party, they were primarily selected by the occupation authorities for this work.


Thanks for making an effort to answer my questions.

May I ask for what purpose you spent a year researching the death of a few people, if you weren't going to publish it?

How much faith should we put in a French forensic commission against Germans at the end of the war? This is why NSDAP members were forced to excavate bodies for whose death they had no responsibility.

Who has the trademark of shooting in the neck?

And if you are responsible for moving people from one place to another, and some are too weak to go on, do you leave them there to die a slow, painful death, or do you put an end to it? Up to 20,000 Germans and Croatians are buried in mass graves along an old highway near the city of Maribor in Slovenia. Less than 1200 have been dug up; the rest won't be. No one wants to take the time to do it and hold up roadbuilding projects. This is according to university professor Mitja Ferenc, who has made it his project to unearth mass gravesites. In his part of the world, they are mostly WWII German soldiers and their allies.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 5 months ago (Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:50 pm)

Trude asked:
May I ask for what purpose you spent a year researching the death of a few people, if you weren't going to publish it?
How much faith should we put in a French forensic commission against Germans at the end of the war?

a) I thought I would do so, but as I wrote in my post before, I found out that another person was already working for her PhD thesis on the same subject. It is "decent behavior" in German university circles not to interfere in such a case. If I would have published my findings before her dissertation was accepted, we both would have gotten into trouble, she under suspicion of plagiarizing, and I would have been ostracized for violating the norms of the scholarly community. If, on the other hand, her dissertation would have appeared earlier, my paper would have been of little interest any more. So one of us had to abandon Gandersheim, and I decided to do so, first as she was farther in her research and had better contacts with the locals, second as Dora-Mittelbau, which my Doktorvater suggested, seemed to be far more interesting, not least because of my background as a trained mathematician and physicist with 8 years experience in the military. (I do not know whether everybody here knows that Dora was the underground CC where the American space heroes to be, such as Wernher von Braun, had their V2 missiles built. My background helped me much in interpreting the documents.)
b) The French commission certainly was not a group of German-huggers. On the other hand, if there is a mass grave and the victims are identified by name (the prisoners were shot in a hurry, and as they were told that they would be transferred to a hospital, they had all their clothes and meager belongings with them, so it was not difficult to identify them), it does not make a big difference whether the commission was German-friendly or not. I read the report (it was made by typewriter in only 4 copies), and it is written without a trace of emotion or accusing someone. Cool, scientific language, pictures, drawings. The aim of this commission, BTW, was not looking for evidence of crimes, but looking for dead French citizens, identifying the corpses and the cause of their death. It was important for issuing death certificates, which were important for the family, e.g. if a widow wanted to marry again, or if she and the children would receive a pension. Looks trite, but such is life, sometimes.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby nathan » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:31 am)

Dr Neander never says anything without having evidence. He remarks in passing that those who chose to stay behind at Auschwitz were killed “to some extent.” We are presumably not talking about stragglers and escapees from the “death march” itself.

The extent to which the stay-behinds were not killed is large one, at least according to standard doctrine. Wikipedia says:

“The SS command sent orders on January 17, 1945 calling for the execution of all prisoners remaining in the camp, but in the chaos of the Nazi retreat the order was never carried out. On January 17, 1945, Nazi personnel started to evacuate the facility. Nearly 60,000 prisoners were forced on a death march toward a camp in Wodzisław Śląski (German: Loslau). Those too weak or sick to walk were left behind. These remaining 7,500 prisoners were liberated by the 322nd Rifle Division of the Red Army on January 27, 1945.


The 7500 included famous memoirists, some of them less admirable than others. This number is not likely to have been overstated, though other things sound like mere Wikipedia. It is not unimagineable of course that suspected malingerers or temporarily ill might have been shot rather than left behind to work or fight for the Russians. What is the evidence for such an “extent” - and to what extent was it done fulfil some higher order?

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby SevenUp » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:04 pm)

joachim neander wrote:
In 2000, I sent all my material to a French researcher who was about to publish a book about Gandersheim (in French, of course).


Does the researcher have a name? Does the book have a title?


joachim neander wrote:

Two guards, an SS man and a Kapo (criminal prisoner), had a trial in 1947 before a German court, accused of accomplice to murder during the death march. Each got about 4 years of prison. The judgement is published in the series "Justiz und NS-Verbrechen." It contains valuable information about the killings en route.


The sentences don't seem commensurate with the crime. Were the killers in the camps identified? Were the killers on the march identified? If not, why not? Who were the victims, generally speaking?

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:28 pm)

SevenUp wrote:
joachim neander wrote:
In 2000, I sent all my material to a French researcher who was about to publish a book about Gandersheim (in French, of course).

Does the researcher have a name? Does the book have a title?
joachim neander wrote:Two guards, an SS man and a Kapo (criminal prisoner), had a trial in 1947 before a German court, accused of accomplice to murder during the death march. Each got about 4 years of prison. The judgement is published in the series "Justiz und NS-Verbrechen." It contains valuable information about the killings en route.

The sentences don't seem commensurate with the crime. Were the killers in the camps identified? Were the killers on the march identified? If not, why not? Who were the victims, generally speaking?

ad 1) a)The name is Paul Le Goupil, he is AFAIK still alive and could be contacted via Facebook.
b) I do not remember the title. When I moved to Poland, from a moderate home (>240 square meters) into a small rented flat, I gave away nearly all books that I thought I would not need any more (together with my wonderful collection of minerals) - no storage place.
b) One of the accused was an elderly SS man who had been severely wounded in the head at the front and was, for this reason, sent "home" and assigned to CC guard duty. The Kapo was a "Berufsverbrecher" (habitual criminal), sterilized for "Schwachsinn" (stupidity?). Both received mitigating circumstances. Those who did the killing were never identified and therefore never stood trial.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby SevenUp » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:40 pm)

joachim neander wrote: Those who did the killing were never identified and therefore never stood trial.


Why not? The survivors did not know the names of the guards in the camp, the guards on the march? How many were there? What about the camp records? It seems like it should have been a relatively simple matter to identify them.

Incidentally,
Paul LE GOUPIL , Gigi et Pierre TEXIER , Bad Gandersheim. THE Paul Goupil, Gigi and Pierre Texier, Bad Gandersheim. Autopsie d'un Kommando de Buchenwald , Imprimerie Turboprint, 2003. Autopsy of a Kommando Buchenwald Turboprint Printing, 2003.
Chez l'auteur, Paul LE GOUPIL - 19, rue du marais 50760 Valcanville. Author, Paul LE GOUPIL - 19, Marsh Street Valcanville 50,760.
Last edited by SevenUp on Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:43 pm)

@ nathan:
The Wiki quote gives, as is often with Wikipedia, not the most reliable information.
No order from an "SS command" demanding to kill the prisoners that were left behind has come down to us. On the other hand, there are eyewitness reports (oh I hear the Rev bells ringing!) about unidentified SS - or even Wehrmacht - platoons, entering camps Monowitz as well as Birkenau on their retreat in the period of time between the evacuation and the liberation and killing inmates there. When the Russians entered the camps on January 27, 1945, they found numerous dead prisoners (identifiable by their camp clothing) with wounds from shooting. They were buried, together with dead prisoners found in the huts, in a mass grave outside the perimeter of the main camp, altogether 650 corpses.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:44 pm)

SevenUp wrote:
joachim neander wrote: Those who did the killing were never identified and therefore never stood trial.


Why not? The survivors did not know the names of the guards in the camp, the guards on the march? How many were there? What about the camp records? It seems like it should have been a relatively simple matter to identify them.

Incidentally,
Paul LE GOUPIL , Gigi et Pierre TEXIER , Bad Gandersheim. THE Paul Goupil, Gigi and Pierre Texier, Bad Gandersheim. Autopsie d'un Kommando de Buchenwald , Imprimerie Turboprint, 2003. Autopsy of a Kommando Buchenwald Turboprint Printing, 2003.
Chez l'auteur, Paul LE GOUPIL - 19, rue du marais 50760 Valcanville. Author, Paul LE GOUPIL - 19, Marsh Street Valcanville 50,760.

Thank you very much, SevenUp, for the bibliographic note!
Re. the guards. First, contrary to the US military, German CC guards did not show their names in big letters on their uniforms. They were anonymous. Second, in the CCs it was strictly forbidden for the guards to enter the prisoner camp (Schutzhaftlager, vulgo "Stacheldrahtbereich"). So, as a rule, an ordinary prisoner could - and did - not know the names of those who guarded him. Third, the shootings of prisoners during the death marches was always carried out behind the marching column. The executioners did not want to have witnesses.
The Gandersheim crimes were investigated by German authorities, the accused stood trial before a German court, and they were tried according to German law, which neither knows retroactive sentencing nor the crime of "common design." So every accused's individual guilt under the law in force at the time of the crime had to be proven beyond all doubt, which was not very easy if you don't have witnesses who could identify a killer. And believe it or not - shooting a straggler was a crime under German law in Nazi times, too.

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Re: Elie Wiesel's sisters

Postby SevenUp » 9 years 5 months ago (Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:26 pm)

joachim neander wrote:@ nathan:
The Wiki quote gives, as is often with Wikipedia, not the most reliable information.
No order from an "SS command" demanding to kill the prisoners that were left behind has come down to us. On the other hand, there are eyewitness reports (oh I hear the Rev bells ringing!)


Good grief. You just read a lie that is broadcast by the establishment media, wiki, about a non-existent order to kill prisoners, and you hear 'Rev bells ringing'.

joachim neander wrote:When the Russians entered the camps on January 27, 1945, they found numerous dead prisoners (identifiable by their camp clothing) with wounds from shooting. They were buried, together with dead prisoners found in the huts, in a mass grave outside the perimeter of the main camp, altogether 650 corpses.


Right. When the Russians got to Babi Yar they found the ground littered with 100,000 corpses, too. Somehow they disappeared. Let's see if we can insert a photo taken when Auschwitz was liberated ....

Image


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