Continuation of "A simple question": Hungarian Jews

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Shermana
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Continuation of "A simple question": Hungarian Jews

Postby Shermana » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:03 pm)

Similar question: Please explain the Holocaust Denier position on Hungarian Jewish population numbers between 1939-1946. Works and authors requested for research. I am trying to be completely objective here, thank you.

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Re: Continuation of "A simple question": Hungarian Jews

Postby proxyserver » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:15 am)

Shermana wrote:Similar question: Please explain the Holocaust Denier position on Hungarian Jewish population numbers between 1939-1946. Works and authors requested for research. I am trying to be completely objective here, thank you.


This is what Sanning has to say:

Jewish population at the end of 1939 400,000

deduct
Fallen Jews in military labour force 27,500
Missing as Soviet prisoners-of-war 25,000
Deported East by the Soviets in 1945 40,000
Negative net birth rate during the war 20,000
Hungarian refugees in Rumania 6,000
Conversions to Christian faiths 10,000 = 129,000

Remainder 271,000
Purported "survivors" April 1946 200,000

"Missing" Hungarian Jews 71,000

The "exterminationists" claim that about half a million Hungarian Jews were exterminated, so it is unlikely that the 71,000 were deliberately exterminated, but were lost in the fog of war in many ways. Also, Shermana, if you are using the term "denier", please ensure that it is in inverted commas, otherwise you are being very derogatory, just as I put the term "exterminationist" in inverted commas. Sanning, of course, goes into great detail explaining all this. Do you think that you could save a lot of trouble obtaning his book ( http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Easte ... 0939484110 ) Shermana, and you can then compare it to all the "exterminationist" books, some of which you surely would have read.

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Re: Continuation of "A simple question": Hungarian Jews

Postby SevenUp » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:56 am)

proxyserver wrote:
Shermana wrote:Similar question: Please explain the Holocaust Denier position on Hungarian Jewish population numbers between 1939-1946. Works and authors requested for research. I am trying to be completely objective here, thank you.


This is what Sanning has to say:

Jewish population at the end of 1939 400,000

deduct
Fallen Jews in military labour force 27,500
Missing as Soviet prisoners-of-war 25,000
Deported East by the Soviets in 1945 40,000
Negative net birth rate during the war 20,000
Hungarian refugees in Rumania 6,000
Conversions to Christian faiths 10,000 = 129,000

Remainder 271,000
Purported "survivors" April 1946 200,000

"Missing" Hungarian Jews 71,000

The "exterminationists" claim that about half a million Hungarian Jews were exterminated, so it is unlikely that the 71,000 were deliberately exterminated, but were lost in the fog of war in many ways. Also, Shermana, if you are using the term "denier", please ensure that it is in inverted commas, otherwise you are being very derogatory, just as I put the term "exterminationist" in inverted commas. Sanning, of course, goes into great detail explaining all this. Do you think that you could save a lot of trouble obtaning his book ( http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Easte ... 0939484110 ) Shermana, and you can then compare it to all the "exterminationist" books, some of which you surely would have read.


I know nothing about this subject, but I did just google up an article by Butz that addresses the Hungarian Jews, at

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n4p19_Butz.html

where he gives his position on the question and contrasts it with that of Jurgen Graf. Both accept that a large number (Graf 400,000, Butz less than that but unspecified) were deported by the Germans. What does Sanning have to say on the number deported by the Nazis?

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Re: Continuation of "A simple question": Hungarian Jews

Postby Pappy Yokum » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:43 am)

SevenUp wrote: What does Sanning have to say on the number deported by the Nazis?


Sanning has quite a bit to say about the Hungarian Jews. [Pages 138 - 144] Hungary, like Poland, went through territorial changes during the war. Sanning reviews the figure of 400,000 for the number of Jews deported by the Germans during May-July 1944. Most of these were from the area around Budapest. An additional 60,000 were purportedly deported by foot to Germany for labor in October 1944 after the Horthy government was arrested and replaced by the Nazis. These are the typical numbers put forward in Holocaust literature.
On the other hand, Sanning states that there are documents which conflict with these numbers. There were negotiations between the Germans and Zionist organizations which prevented much of the planned deportation of Jews from Hungary in the spring and summer of 1944.
As for deportations of Jews from Hungary by the Germans during the war, Sanning puts forward his estimate on page 141: 100,000. This includes Jews living in areas acquired by Hungary after 1930. He calls it "Greater Hungary." The number deported from 1930 Hungarian territory is put at 55,000.
When Sanning presents his summary where he concludes 71,000 Jews were missing. It is unclear to me whether he is referring to 1930 Hungary or 1941 Hungary. I think he means 1930 Hungary because he starts with a population of 400,000 rather than 725,000.
Since his estimates for population reduction of Hungarian Jews do not include the 55,000 he estimates were deported, then the 71,000 "missing" Jews would include those the Nazis deported. "Missing" in this case would not necessarily mean dead. They could be refugees, or displaced persons, living elsewhere in 1946.

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Re: Continuation of "A simple question": Hungarian Jews

Postby proxyserver » 9 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:14 pm)

Pappy Yokum wrote:
SevenUp wrote: What does Sanning have to say on the number deported by the Nazis?


Sanning has quite a bit to say about the Hungarian Jews. [Pages 138 - 144] Hungary, like Poland, went through territorial changes during the war. Sanning reviews the figure of 400,000 for the number of Jews deported by the Germans during May-July 1944. Most of these were from the area around Budapest. An additional 60,000 were purportedly deported by foot to Germany for labor in October 1944 after the Horthy government was arrested and replaced by the Nazis. These are the typical numbers put forward in Holocaust literature.
On the other hand, Sanning states that there are documents which conflict with these numbers. There were negotiations between the Germans and Zionist organizations which prevented much of the planned deportation of Jews from Hungary in the spring and summer of 1944.
As for deportations of Jews from Hungary by the Germans during the war, Sanning puts forward his estimate on page 141: 100,000. This includes Jews living in areas acquired by Hungary after 1930. He calls it "Greater Hungary." The number deported from 1930 Hungarian territory is put at 55,000.
When Sanning presents his summary where he concludes 71,000 Jews were missing. It is unclear to me whether he is referring to 1930 Hungary or 1941 Hungary. I think he means 1930 Hungary because he starts with a population of 400,000 rather than 725,000.
Since his estimates for population reduction of Hungarian Jews do not include the 55,000 he estimates were deported, then the 71,000 "missing" Jews would include those the Nazis deported. "Missing" in this case would not necessarily mean dead. They could be refugees, or displaced persons, living elsewhere in 1946.


Sanning does say that about 100,000 Jews were deported to Germany from Greater Hungary, and the fact is that at the end of the war about 40,000 of these were stopped by the Communists at the border and deported to the Soviet Union, so I suppose that had something to do with the "missing" 71,000, as, of course, it was customary for Jews released from captivity to take advantage of the Displaced Persons' camps in Germany to seek to go overseas for a new life, and the Hungarian Jews would have been no different. Since I have had to deal with Sanning's book, in relation to these posts I have noticed something interesting in the fact that Sanning to a certain effect relies on the information form Gerald Reitlinger's "The Final Solution" ( http://www.amazon.com/Final-Solution-At ... ewpoints=1 ), in which, of course, although it is an "exterminationist" text, Sanning finds much information which contradicts the conventional "exterminationist" account today, so perhaps it will be necessary to get a copy, as I have tended to disregard it in the past in favour of Hilberg.

Now what about Shermana, therefore, has he learnt what he wanted to know about Hungary, or is there further information about Hungary he wants?

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Re: Continuation of "A simple question": Hungarian Jews

Postby Reinhard » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:40 am)

Shermana wrote:Similar question: Please explain the Holocaust Denier position on population numbers between 1939-1946. Works and authors requested for research. I am trying to be completely objective here, thank you.


i have quoted a German war-time publication concerning the Hungarian Jewish population numbers considering the territorial changes in 1938/40 here:

Hungary:
Census 1930: 445.000 (= 5,1 %) [No. 1-2/1941, p. 33]
+ territories gained from Slovakia 1938: + 80.000 [up.cit.]
+ Karpato-Ukraine (1939): + 70.000 [up.cit.]
+ Northern Transylvania (1940 from Rumania): + 150.000 [up.cit.]
= 750.000 (app.) (= 5,9 %) [up.cit.]

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=21593#p21593
And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed, if all records told the same tale, then the lie passed into history and became truth. »Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.«
Orwell 1984

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Re: Continuation of "A simple question": Hungarian Jews

Postby Reinhard » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:54 am)

Pappy Yokum wrote:As for deportations of Jews from Hungary by the Germans during the war, Sanning puts forward his estimate on page 141: 100,000. This includes Jews living in areas acquired by Hungary after 1930.


There is confirmation of that figure in a protocol of a meeting of Hitler, Göring, Saur and Milch on 6 April 1944 and in another of Speer, Saur, Kammler and Schlempp on 26 May 1944:

A few days later, on 6 April 1944, Field Marshal Milch met with Hitler, Göring and Saur in Hitler's headquarters. He asked Hitler and Saur for their agreement for the enlargement of underground A4-rocket-plant "Mittelwerk" near Nordhausen and for producing 1.000 Me 262 per month there.
Hitler even promised to give orders to Himmler to provide 100.000 Hungarian Jews as workers for this purpose. [pp. 76/77]

[...]

On this 26 May 1944 Speer and Saur had a meeting with SS-Obergruppenführer Kammler and his chief of staff, Dr. Schlempp. [...]

Speer asked a question on the workers Hitler had promised to make available on 6th April:
»What about the Hungarian Jews?«

Kammler answered: »They are on the way. At the end of this month the first transports for the underground-plants will arrive.«

Schlempp: »...Dorsch said yesterday that he will send 100.000 Jews from Hungary, 50.000 Italians, 10.000 people from factories which have been damaged by air-attack, 1.000 from Waldbröhl; then he will send people from Greiser's Gau, 4.000 Italian officers, 10.000 from South-Russia, 20.000 from Norhern Russia, i.e. together 200.000.« [p. 81]

Source: Manfred Jurleit, Strahljäger Me 262. Die Technikgeschichte, Motorbuch, Stuttgart ²1995, pp. 76/77 and 81

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?p=34794#p34794
And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed, if all records told the same tale, then the lie passed into history and became truth. »Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.«

Orwell 1984

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Re: Continuation of "A simple question": Hungarian Jews

Postby bridgebuilder » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:29 pm)

proxyserver wrote: " ... the fact is that at the end of the war about 40,000 of these were stopped by the Communists at the border and deported to the Soviet Union."

This is an interesting remark and one I would appreciate a source reference for. Stalin had hatched the "Doctors' Plot" whose aim was to unleash a pogrom against Jews. (Believers in the Jewish "hidden hand" running the Soviet Union in 1945 are in error - it is true that the Bolshevik revolution was largely, indeed, overwhelmingly, Jewish run, but in the most titanic and unremarked struggle of the twentieth century, Stalin wrested power from the Jewish Bolsheviks in the period from Lenin's death through to 1945.) Now the question is, why WOULD Stalin have had 40,000 Jews sent behind the Soviet borders? Balts were similarly deported, as were the elites of all the conquered territories and then systematically worked to death in remote camps, but these were politically opposed to Stalin, whereas Jews were largely pro-Stalin. My belief is that the "Doctors' Plot" was to be merely the second act of a play that had already commenced and that the alleged German Jewish exterminations had in fact been cynically orchestrated and executed by Stalin, and then blamed on the Germans. In short, the 40,000 deported Jews were executed in the Soviet Union, as were numberless others. I am collecting references to Jews in camps in the Soviet Union in order to support this thesis and so would appreciate an original source reference for the 40,000 figure.


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