Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

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Carolyn Yeager
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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:34 am)

Ilikerealhistory wrote:
Eric Hunt wrote:From his memoirs, All Rivers Run to the Sea.

IMG_3855.JPG


Carolyn Yeager wrote:What I do want to know is the date of this picture. He's already going bald. And give us more information about it, if you can. Thanks.



The picture says: "Shortly after the war, ..." My guess would be the Sinai War in 1956. I doubt it would be later than the 1950's


There is a picture of EW in 1954 on the Welcome blog at http://www.eliewieseltattoo.com/blog
You can click on it to enlarge it somewhat. You see how young he looks. The picture "after the war" could not be only several years later, meaning it couldn't be 1956.
In Jewish history there are no coincidences ... Elie Wiesel
Learn more at http://eliewieseltattoo.com

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Cloud » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:09 am)

If he dies before he is exposed, he will have defeated the Revisionists (because once he is dead, he cannot be brought to justice and punished).
Last edited by Cloud on Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:13 am)

The photo could even be the early 70's since the Sinai Peninsula was in Israel's control then.

The original photo (being high quality) could be an incredible document that he doesn't have a tattoo.

It's amazing how many of these prominent survivors have connections to the Israeli military. One example: Samuel Willenberg's book "Surviving Treblinka" was first published by the Israeli military.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Balsamo » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:50 pm)

Here is a picture of Elie Wiesel in 1965*
Image

As for the war, it should definitely be the 6 days war...1967, Dayan was minister of defense...so the titel of "Dayan"s chief of staff" fit...

So my definitive answer is 1967...

In case the photo does not appear
http://www1.alliancefr.com/~zmanim/images/wiesel1

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:50 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Here is a picture of Elie Wiesel in 1965*
Image

As for the war, it should definitely be the 6 days war...1967, Dayan was minister of defense...so the titel of "Dayan"s chief of staff" fit...

So my definitive answer is 1967...

In case the photo does not appear
http://www1.alliancefr.com/~zmanim/images/wiesel1


Are you joking?
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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Balsamo » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:50 pm)

Well...so sorry, really...i copy a link to a picture...And there's the Rhino...funny though...

It was really not on purpose...
Elie Wielsel haircut from 65-66 match the one of the photo...Dayan was minister of defense, so Bar on could have been his chief of Staff...67 is a year of war...so i concluded that the best was to join all of those who proposed the date 1967, mas o menos...

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:00 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Well...so sorry, really...i copy a link to a picture...And there's the Rhino...funny though...

It was really not on purpose...
Elie Wielsel haircut from 65-66 match the one of the photo...Dayan was minister of defense, so Bar on could have been his chief of Staff...67 is a year of war...so i concluded that the best was to join all of those who proposed the date 1967, mas o menos...


Balsamo,
You said on another thread that you were an academic and a historian. You are obviously not. Tell me, does Elie Wiesel have a French accent, as people say? How did he get to speak with a French accent if he didn't arrive in France until he was almost 17 years old?

He spoke Yiddish before he went to France, and claims he wrote the long version of what became "Night" in Yiddish, before it was translated into French. Yet when he met Miklos Gruner in Sweden in '86 or so, he told Gruner he could not speak Yiddish or Hungarian, so they spoke in English. How do you explain that?
In Jewish history there are no coincidences ... Elie Wiesel
Learn more at http://eliewieseltattoo.com

Auschwitz: The Underground Guided Tour http://carolynyeager.net/auschwitz-unde ... uided-tour

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby pictorex » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:59 am)

The date of the photograph can be established with a fair degree of accuracy. "During 1956 Colonel Bar-On served as the personal assistant of General Moshe Dayan, the Chief of Staff of the Israel Defence Forces" according to this reference:
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/history_workshop_journal/v062/62.1bar-on.html
If it was taken "shortly after the war" the date would have been in early November 1956.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Balsamo » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:31 pm)

Carolyn Yeager wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Well...so sorry, really...i copy a link to a picture...And there's the Rhino...funny though...

It was really not on purpose...
Elie Wielsel haircut from 65-66 match the one of the photo...Dayan was minister of defense, so Bar on could have been his chief of Staff...67 is a year of war...so i concluded that the best was to join all of those who proposed the date 1967, mas o menos...


Balsamo,
You said on another thread that you were an academic and a historian. You are obviously not. Tell me, does Elie Wiesel have a French accent, as people say? How did he get to speak with a French accent if he didn't arrive in France until he was almost 17 years old?

He spoke Yiddish before he went to France, and claims he wrote the long version of what became "Night" in Yiddish, before it was translated into French. Yet when he met Miklos Gruner in Sweden in '86 or so, he told Gruner he could not speak Yiddish or Hungarian, so they spoke in English. How do you explain that?



You keep surprising me, Carolyn. You ability to evaluate an individual biography out of nothing is a gift for sure.
Anyway, i don't understand why you are so rude, considering that you wanted to know the date of the picture. With the few elements at disposal, 1967 seemed the best choice (you and other picked it up as well, if i remember)
What we are doing here googling for information, not practising historical researches...

Pictorex, as you say, Bar on was chief of staff asistant, not chief of staff in 1956...He replaced Dayan in 1958...but at that time he could not have been Dayan's chief of Staff, as Dayan left the army to do politic, and was minister of agriculture untill 64.
There is a war in 67, and Dayan was the minister of Defense, so the information "Dayan's chief of Staff" is pertinent...of course another problem is that the chief of staff in 67 is supposed to be Rabin...So, it is all pure speculation and as colonel Bar on is not quoted as having ever been Tsahal chief of Staff here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... nse_Forces though on his own wiki page, Bar on is said to become it in 58...

But hey, these informations comes from of one of Elie's book...liberties can have been taken with History...it would not be the first time he is not a reliable source...and Wiki is not eather...
56 or 67 is anyone guess.

As for Elie french accent, i don't see the link with the present picture. Feel free to explain.
Anyway, you are certainly aware that Wiesel spent 11 years in France where he did all his studies...French is a very proud idiom, it infiltrates every other ones...

Now, let me clear, i hate this guy, and as everyone who did critically read "night", i doubt he ever put a foot at Birkenau and i cannot explain his rise. His rise, by the way, is what makes me even more suspicious. Add Rosensaft on your list of suspect, as well...
Still, even proven a fake, it would not mean total victory of revisionism...as those guys are just one part of the equation...It would be a very good strike though, but there are plenty of other fakes Viet veterans...It is not enough to conclude that there was no vietnam war...
You could prove that he is only a zionist agent (if you allowed to) and illustrate how Israel is using the Holocaust to promote its politic, but that will be it. It's not meaningless, of course, but not decisive.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:28 pm)

How did he get to speak with a French accent if he didn't arrive in France until he was almost 17 years old?

Not sure of the relevance of this, but 17 is not too late to change your accent in your native language, particularly if done deliberately, say to conform to a higher status accent. If you go to a new country you will try to acquire a native accent. Good linguists will get very close.
If he lived in France and French became his everyday language, and he acquired a near-native accent in it, it is quite probable that he might have had a French accent in English, especially if he learned it in France. I've never heard him, but it's likely his accent would have elements of East Europe, Yiddish and French.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:39 pm)

Balsamo wrote:
Carolyn Yeager wrote:Balsamo,
You said on another thread that you were an academic and a historian. You are obviously not. Tell me, does Elie Wiesel have a French accent, as people say? How did he get to speak with a French accent if he didn't arrive in France until he was almost 17 years old?

He spoke Yiddish before he went to France, and claims he wrote the long version of what became "Night" in Yiddish, before it was translated into French. Yet when he met Miklos Gruner in Sweden in '86 or so, he told Gruner he could not speak Yiddish or Hungarian, so they spoke in English. How do you explain that?



You keep surprising me, Carolyn. You ability to evaluate an individual biography out of nothing is a gift for sure.
Anyway, i don't understand why you are so rude, considering that you wanted to know the date of the picture. With the few elements at disposal, 1967 seemed the best choice (you and other picked it up as well, if i remember)
What we are doing here googling for information, not practising historical researches...

Pictorex, as you say, Bar on was chief of staff asistant, not chief of staff in 1956...He replaced Dayan in 1958...but at that time he could not have been Dayan's chief of Staff, as Dayan left the army to do politic, and was minister of agriculture untill 64.
There is a war in 67, and Dayan was the minister of Defense, so the information "Dayan's chief of Staff" is pertinent...of course another problem is that the chief of staff in 67 is supposed to be Rabin...So, it is all pure speculation and as colonel Bar on is not quoted as having ever been Tsahal chief of Staff here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... nse_Forces though on his own wiki page, Bar on is said to become it in 58...

But hey, these informations comes from of one of Elie's book...liberties can have been taken with History...it would not be the first time he is not a reliable source...and Wiki is not eather...
56 or 67 is anyone guess.

As for Elie french accent, i don't see the link with the present picture. Feel free to explain.
Anyway, you are certainly aware that Wiesel spent 11 years in France where he did all his studies...French is a very proud idiom, it infiltrates every other ones...

Now, let me clear, i hate this guy, and as everyone who did critically read "night", i doubt he ever put a foot at Birkenau and i cannot explain his rise. His rise, by the way, is what makes me even more suspicious. Add Rosensaft on your list of suspect, as well...
Still, even proven a fake, it would not mean total victory of revisionism...as those guys are just one part of the equation...It would be a very good strike though, but there are plenty of other fakes Viet veterans...It is not enough to conclude that there was no vietnam war...
You could prove that he is only a zionist agent (if you allowed to) and illustrate how Israel is using the Holocaust to promote its politic, but that will be it. It's not meaningless, of course, but not decisive.



Well, I see what you and others call "rude" as not liking to waste my or other's time. :-) Your presentation of history doesn't seem to be like that of an academic. However, I appreciate any real attempt by you to get the information straight.

Saying that the picture in question is '56 or '67 is "anybody's guess" is not good enough. It's certainly important to know exactly, and should be able to be determined. I haven't had time to look into it yet, but I will. I say '67 because he has to be at least 40 years old here. As others have noted, he looks quite decrepit. In 1956 he was only 28, so we're talking common sense here.

Making it clear to the world that Elie Wiesel is a fraud is not intended to bring down the entire Holocaust. Where do people get that idea? It has never been stated by me or on the website. The goal is to provide the irrefutable proof about him and force the believers to admit it. I also want to prevent Wiesel from becoming a LEGEND after his death ... to replace Jesus Christ. That is what many are after. We don't need a Jewish savior, eh? I'm also coming to see just how fully Elie symbolizes or represents the Holo in almost all it's aspects. Revealing the tissue of lies that support his "legendary life" will also expose the tissue of lies on which the Holo is built.

So there is much to gain in this challenge and I think all revisionists should look to see what they can do to help it along.

P.S. No, the French accent has nothing to do with the topic, but since you are French (you say), I thought you might have an opinion on his devotion to French. Why not Yiddish, since he's such a loyal Orthodox Jew? You say he spent 11 years in France where he did all his studies. I guess I'll have to start a thread and ask you, a French historian, about those 11 years. I want to learn.
In Jewish history there are no coincidences ... Elie Wiesel
Learn more at http://eliewieseltattoo.com

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Balsamo » 9 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:24 pm)

Well, i said that french was my language...and though one of my grandmother was indeed french, i have a belgian passport, though i was born in Germany...

Anyway, it happened that i was brave enough to have read Elie Wiesel's badly written books.
After 45, he was taken care by the "Oeuvres de Secours aux enfants" he settled in France, finish school there, and studied philosophy at the Sorbonne university in Paris. There he will become a jornalist for an Israeli paper (The Tel Aviv daily). After an interview, he will become friend with François Mauriac who wrote the foreword for "night", after having shared memories of the "dark times"...Anyway, though he became US citizen in 63 (he left France for the US in 56, sent by his newspaper, and because France would not grant him french nationality), he always felt very close to France.
(One should note that he claims to have gone to Israel in 1948, where dissapointed by the way "survivors" are considered by Israeli's, he decided to go back to France as a journalist...)
He was also a very close friend with François Mitterand (who will become president from 1981 to 1995, he will give the medal of the Legion of honour to Elie). It clashed when Wiesel discovered through a book that Mitterand protected Bousquet. Still a common book will be published "Mémoires à deux voix" by Elie Wiesel and François Mitterand.
Anyway, it is quite understandable that Wiesel lost his Yiddish and did not use it to communicate to the world. The Yiddish is quite a german inspired dialect that differs from a place to another. And as he started to write in 58, French was the obvious choice.

In the foreword of "Days" he admits that he never was very confortable with writing in english. He only learned it in 1956. He tells that all his writing, except the first, are translated by his wife Marion.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby snorkel » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:54 am)

Mordechai Bar On was the Chief of Bureau to the Israeli Defense Force's Chief of Staff in 1958.

Wikipedia refers to him as being from 1955 - 1957 "head of the History Deparatment of the General Staff" (sic). They further tell us:
From 1961 until 1963 he served as the deputy Chief Education Officer in the Education and Youth Corps, before becoming its head in 1963. He was demobilized in 1968.

Moshe Dayan was Chief of Staff from 1953 to 1958. In his auto-biography, Dayan refers to Bar On as "my Chief of Bureau" in 1956.

Dayan was Defense Minister in 1967, and his chief assistant was Zvi Zur.

So the photo must date from November, 1956, after the end of the Sinai Campaign.
Wiesel does look decrepit in this photo, given that he would have to be 28 years old at the time,.

As to the Tattoo, I can't make out anything there in the photo. The position seems off somehow.

I pulled some frames from the Soviet propaganda clip of Auschwitz in 1945, the one with the children showing their tattoos.

Just for interest sake. I am convinced there was no systematic tattooing of Auschwitz inmates. The children I believe are showing marks,
made by a pen with indelible ink, for purposes of keeping track of children too young to remember numbers.
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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:09 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Well, i said that french was my language...and though one of my grandmother was indeed french, i have a belgian passport, though i was born in Germany...

[...]
Anyway, it is quite understandable that Wiesel lost his Yiddish and did not use it to communicate to the world. The Yiddish is quite a german inspired dialect that differs from a place to another. And as he started to write in 58, French was the obvious choice.

In the foreword of "Days" he admits that he never was very confortable with writing in english. He only learned it in 1956. He tells that all his writing, except the first, are translated by his wife Marion.


Hi Balsamo and Kingfisher,

I just listened to a 2009 radio interview with Elie Wiesel and can say with conviction that he doesn't have a French accent. Some people have said that but they are just wrong. His voice is unpleasant to me; I have to force myself to listen, but he has what seems like an undefined (to my ear) eastern European/German-Yiddish accent, which is what one would expect. So that question is solved, as far as I'm concerned. His voice is so unpleasant that I feel sorry for those who have to listen to him for any length of time. His evasive manner may be part of it.
In Jewish history there are no coincidences ... Elie Wiesel
Learn more at http://eliewieseltattoo.com

Auschwitz: The Underground Guided Tour http://carolynyeager.net/auschwitz-unde ... uided-tour

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 4 months ago (Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:22 pm)

snorkel wrote:Mordechai Bar On was the Chief of Bureau to the Israeli Defense Force's Chief of Staff in 1958.

Wikipedia refers to him as being from 1955 - 1957 "head of the History Deparatment of the General Staff" (sic). They further tell us:
From 1961 until 1963 he served as the deputy Chief Education Officer in the Education and Youth Corps, before becoming its head in 1963. He was demobilized in 1968.

Moshe Dayan was Chief of Staff from 1953 to 1958. In his auto-biography, Dayan refers to Bar On as "my Chief of Bureau" in 1956.

Dayan was Defense Minister in 1967, and his chief assistant was Zvi Zur.

So the photo must date from November, 1956, after the end of the Sinai Campaign.
Wiesel does look decrepit in this photo, given that he would have to be 28 years old at the time,.

As to the Tattoo, I can't make out anything there in the photo. The position seems off somehow.

I pulled some frames from the Soviet propaganda clip of Auschwitz in 1945, the one with the children showing their tattoos.

Just for interest sake. I am convinced there was no systematic tattooing of Auschwitz inmates. The children I believe are showing marks,
made by a pen with indelible ink, for purposes of keeping track of children too young to remember numbers.


Thank you for the research, snorkel. In spite of what you found about who was who when in the IDF, I don't think it can be '56, '57 or '58. Maybe the caption is wrong ... that's a typical fault in Wiesel's books. You can't believe a word in them! It looks like we may never know exactly. But he has to be at least in his late thirties or forties ... compared to other pictures of him. I stick with that.

I agree the "tattoo" on the child doesn't look like one, but like something else written there. That's a very good picture to have, so thanks for isolating it.
In Jewish history there are no coincidences ... Elie Wiesel
Learn more at http://eliewieseltattoo.com

Auschwitz: The Underground Guided Tour http://carolynyeager.net/auschwitz-unde ... uided-tour


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