Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby twila » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon May 07, 2012 9:41 am)

Carolyn Yeager:

I just listened to a 2009 radio interview with Elie Wiesel... His voice is so unpleasant that I feel sorry for those who have to listen to him for any length of time.


I was thinking about this last night. He is one of the most repulsive people I have ever seen. Watching the video of him was "unpleasant" to say the least.

I would describe my feeling as... as if I'm sensing something evil.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby twila » 7 years 5 months ago (Mon May 07, 2012 9:54 am)

snorkel:

Just for interest sake. I am convinced there was no systematic tattooing of Auschwitz inmates.


My opinion on this can hardly be called authoratative, but that is my gut feeling as well.

Something aint right here.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby borjastick » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu May 10, 2012 2:30 am)

Are you saying that some inmates were tattooed and some were not? I wonder why this would be so. Would some be tattooed to mark them as different for work or location purposes. What is the feeling here? Or perhaps there are plenty of Jews who self tattoed so as to give themselves 'credibility' after the event, and perhaps a stronger case for compensation.
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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby The Warden » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu May 10, 2012 9:09 am)

There's no reason to "deny" the act of tattooing. In fact, the fact they did tattoo the inmates goes against the very claim that people were just loaded on trains, sent to the camps, and put to death upon arrival. The tattooing, along with the disinfection and/or removal and burning of clothing, the removal of hair, the medical treatment provided, the orchestra, the camp's own currency, are all part of a "convergence of evidence' which tears apart the "death camp" allegations.

Of course they were tattooed. They were keeping track of the inmates that were alive and well within the camps.
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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Zulu » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu May 10, 2012 11:14 am)

The Warden wrote:
Of course they were tattooed. They were keeping track of the inmates that were alive and well within the camps.

It seems paradoxical that tattoos are actually a proof that those survivors were not destined to the "gas chambers" while often they exhibit them to a credule audience as a proof for the existence of murder gassing. A number tattooed, if authentic, proves that a person was registered in a camp and all the related story is traceable at ATS.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby twila » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu May 10, 2012 7:07 pm)

borjastick:

Are you saying that some inmates were tattooed and some were not?


What I said was:

snorkel:

Just for interest sake. I am convinced there was no systematic tattooing of Auschwitz inmates.


My opinion on this can hardly be called authoratative, but that is my gut feeling as well.

Something aint right here.


Check this out: http://www.cwporter.com/tattoo1.htm


The Warden:

There's no reason to "deny" the act of tattooing. In fact, the fact they did tattoo the inmates goes against the very claim that people were just loaded on trains, sent to the camps, and put to death upon arrival. The tattooing, along with the disinfection and/or removal and burning of clothing, the removal of hair, the medical treatment provided, the orchestra, the camp's own currency, are all part of a "convergence of evidence' which tears apart the "death camp" allegations.

Of course they were tattooed. They were keeping track of the inmates that were alive and well within the camps.


Warden, can you show me or draw me a Nazi "tattooing machine"?

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby The Warden » 7 years 5 months ago (Fri May 11, 2012 12:08 am)

twila wrote:Warden, can you show me or draw me a Nazi "tattooing machine"?


Of course not.

I don't see the point of denying the act of tattooing when there's no proof of death camps in the first place.
The claims of tattoos are more of an asset intact than debunked.



Can you post the link to Mr. Porter's work instead of trying to pass it off as your own from now on?

http://www.cwporter.com/tattoo1.htm
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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Zulu » 7 years 5 months ago (Fri May 11, 2012 3:45 pm)

The Warden wrote:
twila wrote:Warden, can you show me or draw me a Nazi "tattooing machine"?

Of course not.
I don't see the point of denying the act of tattooing when there's no proof of death camps in the first place.
The claims of tattoos are more of an asset intact than debunked.
Can you post the link to Mr. Porter's work instead of trying to pass it off as your own from now on?
http://www.cwporter.com/tattoo1.htm

I had never doubted before whether the survivors' tattoos were authentic or not. I always thought that it was a practical manner to identify the inmates at the nazi camps. However, after reading that Porter's page I am not that sure any more especially after noticing that nazi documents are lacking for supporting such practice while there is nothing really "criminal" on it. Tattoos are exhibited by survivors as a proof they were treated like animals by the SS among other allegations which were mostly proved to be false or largely exaggerated.

I tried to search something consistent on that topic. First, I noticed 3 citations related with the practice of tattoing in the IMT proceedings at Nuremberg.

2 quotations are from former Auschwitz's inmates: Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier(French, member of French Communist Party) and Severina Shmaglevskaya (Polish)

28 Jan. 46
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER:
[...]
We arrived at Auschwitz at dawn. The seals on our cars were broken, and we were driven out by blows with the butt end of a rifle, and taken to the Birkenau Camp, a section of the Auschwitz Camp. It is situated in the middle of a great plain, which was frozen in the month of January. During this part of the journey we had to drag our luggage. As we passed through the door we knew only too well how slender our chances were that we would come out again, for we had already met columns of living skeletons going to work; and as we entered we sang "The Marseillaise" to keep up our courage.

We were led to a large shed, then to the disinfecting station. There our heads were shaved and our registration numbers were tattooed on the left forearm. Then we were taken into a large room for a steam bath and a cold shower. In spite of the fact that we were naked, all this took place in the presence of SS men and women. We were then given clothing which was soiled and torn, a cotton dress and jacket of the same material. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/01-28-46.asp

Severina Shmaglevskaya
27 Feb. 46

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I hereby swear before God -- the Almighty -- that I will speak before the Tribunal nothing but the truth -- concealing nothing that is known to me -- so help me God, Amen.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Tell me, Witness, were you an internee of Oswieczim Camp?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: During what period of time were you in the camp of Oswieczim?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: From 7 October 1942 to January 1945.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Do you have any proof that you were an internee of this camp?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: I have the number which was tattooed on my arm, right here.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: That is what the Oswieczim inmates call the "visiting cards"?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: Yes.

.../

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: I noticed then a woman in the last month of pregnancy. It was obvious from her appearance. This woman, together with the others, had to walk 10 kilometers to the place of work and there she toiled the whole day, shovel in hands, digging trenches. She was already ill and she asked the German superintendent, a civilian, for permission to rest. He refused, laughed at her, and together with another SS man, started beating her. He scrutinized her work very strictly. Such was the situation of all the women who were pregnant. And only during the very last minutes were they permitted to stay away from work. The newborn children, if Jewish, were immediately put to death.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Pardon me, Witness, what do you mean by "were immediately put to death"? When was it?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: They were immediately taken away from their mother.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: When the transport arrived?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: No, I am speaking of the children who were born in the concentration camps. A few minutes after delivery the child was taken from the mother, who never saw it again. After a few days the mother had to return to work. In 1942 there were no special blocks in the camp for the children. At the beginning of 1943, when they started to tattoo the internees, the children born in the concentration camps were also branded. The number was tattooed on their legs.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Why on the leg?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: Because the child is very small and there was not enough room on their tiny arms for the number, which contained five digits. The children did not have special numbers but bore the same numbers as the grown-ups; that is to say, they were given serial numbers. The children were placed in a special block and after a few weeks, sometimes after a month, they were taken away from the camp.

.../
MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Selection was made by the doctors?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: Not always by doctors; sometimes by SS men.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: And doctors with them?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: Yes, sometimes, by doctors, too. During such a sorting, the youngest and the healthiest Jewish women in very small numbers entered the camp. Women carrying children in their arms or in carriages, or those who had larger children, were sent into the crematory together with their children. The children were separated from their parents in front of the crematory and were led separately into gas chambers.

At that time, when the greatest number of Jews were exterminated in the gas chambers, an order was issued that the children were to be thrown into the crematory ovens or the crematory ditches without previous asphyxiation with gas.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: How should we understand that? Were they thrown into the ovens alive or were they killed by other means before they were burned?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: The children were thrown in alive. Their cries could be heard all over the camp. It is hard to say how many there were.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Nevertheless, there was some reason why this was done. Was it because the gas chambers were overworked?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: It is very difficult to answer this question. We don't know whether they wanted to economize on the gas or whether there was no room in the gas chambers.

I should also add that it is impossible to determine the number of these children -- like that of the Jews -- because they were driven directly to the crematory, were not registered, were not tattooed, and very often were not even counted. We, the internees, often tried to ascertain the number of people who perished in gas chambers; but our estimates of the number of children executed could only be based on the number of children's prams which were brought to the storerooms. Sometimes there were hundreds of these carriages, but sometimes they sent thousands.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: In one day?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: Not always the same. There were days when the gas chambers worked from early morning until late at night.

I should also like to tell you about the children -- and their number is large -- who were interned in concentration camps. At the beginning of 1943 Polish children from Zamoishevna arrived at the concentration camp with their parents. At the same time Russian children from territories occupied by the Germans began to arrive. The Jewish children were added to these. In smaller numbers, one could also meet Italian children in the concentration camp. The conditions were as difficult for the children as for adults; perhaps even more onerous. These children didn't receive any parcels because there was no one to send them. Red Cross packages never reached the internees. In 1944 a great number of Italian and French children arrived at the concentration camp. All these children suffered from skin diseases, lymphatic boils, and malnutrition; they were badly clad, often without shoes, and had no possibility of washing themselves.

During the Warsaw uprising captured children from Warsaw were brought to the concentration camp. The youngest of the children was a little 6-year-old boy. The children were quartered in special barracks. When the systematic deportation of internees from Birkenau to the interior of Germany commenced, these children were used for heavy labor. At the same time there arrived in the concentration camps the children of Hungarian Jews, who had to work together with the children who were brought after the Warsaw uprising. These children worked with two carts which they had tonpull themselves to transport coal, iron machines, wood for floors, and other heavy things from one camp to the other. They also labored at dismantling barracks during the liquidation of the camp. These children remained in the concentration camp until the very end. In January 1945 they were evacuated and had to march to Germany on foot under conditions as difficult as those of the front, under an SS guard, without food, covering about 30 kilometers a day.

MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: During this march the children died of exhaustion?

SHMAGLEVSKAYA: I wasn't in the group where there were children, as I managed to escape on the second day after this evacuation march.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-27-46.asp


Then came a mention of tattooing by Wilhelm Keitel a German field marshal (Generalfeldmarschall) who mentioned tattoos as a possibility to identify fugitive Russian POW. However, despite he acknowledged the existence of an inquiry of the topic, he didn't know whether it resulted in some real application.

5 April 46

DR. NELTE: You know that the Prosecution have submitted an order, according to which Soviet Russian prisoners of war were to be marked by means of tattooing, so that they could be identified. Would you please make a statement on that?

KEITEL: The facts are as follows: During the summer of 1942, the Fuehrer called the Quartermaster General of the Army to headquarters for a report lasting several hours, at which the Fuehrer asked him to report on conditions in the Eastern rear army territory. I was suddenly called in and told that the Quartermaster General was saying that thousands of Russian prisoners of war were escaping every month, that they disappeared among the population, immediately discarded their uniforms, and procured civilian clothes, and could no longer be identified. I was ordered to make investigations and to devise some means of identification which would enable them to be identified even after they had put on civilian clothing. Thereupon I sent instructions to Berlin, saying that such an order should be prepared but that investigations should first be made by the international law department of the Foreign Office to find out whether such an order could be given at all; and, secondly, whether it could be carried out technically.

I should like to say that we were thinking of tattoo marks of the kind found on many seamen and bricklayers in Germany. But I heard no more about it. One day I met the Foreign Minister at headquarters and talked to him about the question. Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop knew about the inquiry submitted to the Foreign Office and considered the measure extremely questionable. That was the first news I had about the subject. I gave immediate instructions, whether personally or through the adjutant I cannot remember, that the order was not to go out. I had neither seen a draft nor had I signed anything. At any rate I gave an unmistakable order: "The order is in no circumstances to be issued." I received no further detailed information at the time. I heard nothing more about it and I was convinced that the order had not been issued.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-05-46.asp


On wikipedia we can read

A practice was established to tattoo the inmate identification numbers. Initially, in Auschwitz, the camp numbers were sewn on the clothes. With the increased death rate it became difficult to identify corpses, since clothes were removed from corpses. Therefore the medical personnel started to write the numbers on the corpses' chests with indelible ink. Difficulties increased in 1941 when Soviet POWs came in masses, and the first few thousand tattoos were applied to them. This was done with a special stamp with the numbers to be tattooed composed of needles. The tattoo was applied to the upper left part of the breast. In March 1942, the same method was used in Birkenau.

Metal stamps turned out to be impractical, and later numbers were tattoed with a single needle on the left forearm.

The tattoo was the prisoner's camp number, sometimes with a special symbol added: some Jews had a triangle, and Roma had the letter "Z" (from German Zigeuner for "Gypsy"). In May 1944, the Jewish men received the letters "A" or "B" to indicate particular series of numbers. For some unknown reason, this number series for woman never began again with the "B" series after they had reached the number limit of 20,000 for the "A" series.[1]
_____________________________________________________________________________________
1 - Franciszek Piper and Teresa Swiebocka, eds., Auschwitz: Nazi Death Camp (Oswiecim: The Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, 1996), pp. 60-61.


I found also a page which seems more documented although the lack of documents of the period is noticed. The only references on tattoing come from Polish sources: Franciszek Piper and Danuta Czech.

The Evolution of Tattooing in the Auschwitz Concentration Camp Complex
By George Rosenthal, Trenton, NJ
Auschwitz Survivor, based on documents obtained from The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

For many, the blurred blue lines of a serial number on a forearm are an indelible image of the Holocaust. The tattoos of the survivors have come to symbolize the utter brutality and of the concentration camps and the attempt of the Nazis to dehumanize their victims. The tattoos are also a testament to the resilience of those who bear them. Yet despite the importance of the tattoos, as testament, symbol, and historical artifact, little scholarship has been devoted to the subject. There exist virtually no official period documents relating to the practice; what we know stems from anecdotal evidence contained in camp records and the accounts of those who were at the camps.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... toos1.html

After all that it seems that tattoing as an official SS policy is far form being well established.
What if such practice was in use among the inmates as a way to remember their ID number?
If they rudimentary tattoed their numbers themselves or by a companion by any mean available at a camp that could explain the diverse irregular graphisms and inks twhich can be seen nowadays.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby twila » 7 years 5 months ago (Fri May 11, 2012 11:27 pm)

The Warden:

Can you post the link to Mr. Porter's work instead of trying to pass it off as your own from now on?


I did post the link. What are you, blind?


Q: Warden, can you show me or draw me a Nazi "tattooing machine"?

Wardens answer:

Of course not.


I didn't think so.


Zulu:

After all that it seems that tattoing as an official SS policy is far form being well established.

What if such practice was in use among the inmates as a way to remember their ID number?


That was my thought exactly.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby borjastick » 7 years 5 months ago (Sat May 12, 2012 2:07 am)

Good work Zulu, this is turning out to be a very interesting subject matter. I, like you, always thought that every inmate was tattooed and that therefore it was a systematic process that each new inmate went through. The fact that it appears very difficult to prove this by way of papertrail or quality evidence throws this all into a different light. If it were genuine there would be a continuity and style of tattoo typeface and location on the body, surely? There would be a machine on site or maybe many machines, some of which would still survive, there would be incidental written evidence contained within other SS or soldier statements.

So we can at this stage assume that it probably wasn't part of the process and that many inmates were not tattooed at all by anyone. That also these tattoos were perhaps administered by inmates themselves. I would like to know how many by number or percentage survivors had a tattoo. All of this throws more light on the Elie Wiesel story. It is clear to me from all the pictoral evidence available that he does not have a tattoo...
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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby The Warden » 7 years 2 weeks ago (Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:56 am)

If it's a case of inmates tattooing each other, there would be no machine to be found or described. In its simplest form, tattooing can be done with one needle and a very small amount of ink. It's just a matter of getting the ink below the surface of the skin. Modern machines enable faster speeds and consistent depths of the needle, but none of this is necessary if it's just one person tapping the end of a needle dipped in ink into someone's skin. It would take forever to do a tattoo with one needle (or even a few) and it would be sloppy as all hell, but... Well... they are, aren't they? If the ink if delivered at different depths, the tattoo would appear to be thin-lined in some spots and heavier in others... Which they are. The lines would be far from straight since the process would be slow and tedious... which they are. They would be the most rudimentary tattoos ever seen... they are. It would explain why there aren't many of them to be found, but would also explain why there may be some in the first place.

Spare me any requests for a needle found in the haystack of the camp sites. Don't be ridiculous.
Keep in mind, it doesn't necessarily have to be a needle per se. It can be any sharp-tipped object made of a sturdy material. A piece of metal could've been filed down to a point and used. You get the idea though.

I'm merely pointing out the fact tattooing doesn't take much more than ink and a small amount of pressure which can be delivered by tapping the end of the needle with any object such as a stick or anything else found in everyday use.
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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Transform » 7 years 1 week ago (Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:31 pm)

Wiesel is claimed to have shown his tattoo in this new article:

He pulls back his left jacket sleeve to reveal a Nazi death camp number tattooed on his forearm as he sits comfortably in his Manhattan office for an interview.

“Usually, I don’t show it,” he says.

One of the exceptions was a 2009 visit to the Buchenwald death camp Wiesel survived, with President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel.


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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby borjastick » 7 years 1 week ago (Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:51 am)

And yet still no picture...
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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby Creox » 7 years 1 week ago (Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:45 am)

I am curious why he would take the time to explain he has a tattoo but does not like to show it? From what I've gathered the tattoo was a badge of sorts that validated what these people went through. Even though they weren't exterminated the experience was very bad for many in other ways.

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Re: Is this Elie Wiesel's Tattoo?

Postby borjastick » 7 years 1 week ago (Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:54 am)

Elie Weasel has said many things that are so whacky that one is left thinking that this man is either a complete lunatic or has a never ending penchant for meth.

Let's put it another way. You are accused of some heinous crime. You know you didn't do it. The police think, nay they are sure you did do it. You cannot prove it, then something happens and you have evidence that absolutely assures your innocence. So you wake up the next day and decide that to hide that monumental piece of evidence. Doh!

Ladies and gentlemen I give you, and you can keep him - ELIE WIESEL...
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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