Help with a picture

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Hektor
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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Hektor » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:17 am)

joachim neander wrote:I know this photograph very well. I discussed the matter in much detail in my PhD dissertation. It is, of course, written in German, but available even thru amazon.com. As it is also in the stock of many public libraries, an interested reader can get it via interlibrary loan from his/her next public library.

To make it short (and omitting many details): The photograph shows part of the Boelcke-Kaserne at Nordhausen, Germany....In some of the former hangars and garages a sub-camp of CC Mittelbau was established at the end of January 1945, when the evacuation transports from Auschwitz and Gross Rosen arrived with many, many sick prisoners, unfit for work in the "Mittelbau Project," the excavation of big underground caves west of Nordhausen, intended for the deployment of an aircraft factory and an oil refinery. The sick prisoners were left there with a minimum of food, no health care, no beds (only straw on the concrete floor), no heating. All severely sick prisoners from the main camp "Dora" and the other sub-camps of Mittelbau were also sent to sub-camp Boelcke-Kaserne. The appalling living conditions made that the death rate in this camp was extremely high.
....The prisoners were prevented at gunpoint from entering the air raid shelters on the premises. A few hours after the last air raid, the SS abandoned the Boelcke Kaserne sub-camp (the evacuation of the Mittelbau camps was beginning) and left the dead and dying inmates to their fate.
...

It is not correct to assign ALL the dead to the RAF bombing. If the prisoners had been allowed to hide in air raid shelters during the air raid, if the camp authorities had cared for the ca. 600 who had survived the bombing, and if these men had not been seriously ill due to neglect and maltreatment, the overall death toll would have been significantly less.

I happen to know people from that area of Germany. And they recall quite weary prisoners marching through their village at the end of the war. They also went to that museum after the end of the "DDR" and I should add that it seems they've paddled back their on many of the allegations you made. The statement that "The prisoners were prevented at gunpoint from entering the air raid shelters" sounds a bit absurd. Not that it's physically impossible and the rest sounds rather like exaggeration of certainly deteriorating conditions at the end of the war. You did check those allegations concerning maltreatment of prisoners on the possibility, whether this is just communist propaganda, didn't you?

Finally it should be noted that the German wiki entry on Nordhausen already revised the claims concerning this picture:
Etwa 1200[2] bis 1300[3] Tote forderte die Bombardierung unter den Häftligen des Außenlagers Boelcke-Kaserne. Die Bomben detonierten auf den Lagerstraßen und in den Unterkunftsblocks.[4] Die Aufnahme zeigt das Kasernengelände mit den geborgenen Leichen.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordhausen
I assume you understand the German text.
The text clearly states that the picture shows recovered corpses after the bombing. Hence your statement "It is not correct to assign ALL the dead to the RAF bombing" is wrong as we are discussing the picture here.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:01 am)

Trying to answer to some of the Revisionist objections.
1) It is true that Germans starved, but not before Germany was occupied by the victorious powers. At Bergen-Belsen, e.g., the British found magazines full of food, and they distributed it among the liberated prisoners. The same was the case with camp Dora, where about 600 sick prisoners were left, together with prisoner doctors. Until VE day, there was enough to eat, not very much, but enough for about 70 million Germans, so there would have been also something left for a few hundred thousand CC prisoners, less than 1 per cent of the population. Famine occurred in Germany in the winter of 1945/46 and in 1946, because in spring 1945 many agricultural fields were destroyed by fighting. In addition, there were very few farmhands available in 1945/46 - German men were either dead or in captivity, and the forced laborers on the way back to their home countries. In addition, there was lack of machines and fertilizer. Therefore much land lay idle. I remember well that non-governmental organizations, e.g. the Quakers, sent food to Germany. My family received C.A.R.E. parcels from the U.S. which helped us to survive the first postwar winter.
2) There was an order from the Reich Main Security Office that CC prisoners, as well as Jews still living in Germany (those few who were protected by an "Aryan" spouse) and foreign forced laborers, were not allowed to enter air raid shelters during an air raid. They should function as a kind of "living shield" against bombing. The Allies, however, didn't care about. In some cases, the management of an armament factory allowed forced laborers/CC prisoners to seek shelter in shallow trenches (Splittergräben). But these were not very effective. So in a an air raid on the Buna factory near Auschwitz in the autumn of 1944, 38 British POWs died in a trench that was hit by a bomb. The fact that the prisoners of the Boelcke Kaserne camp were not allowed to enter the air raid shelters (and there was plenty of it, don't forget that the Boelcke Kaserne was built and for a long time used as a Luftwaffe facility) undoubtedly raised the death toll.
3) Wikipedia is not the gospel. But even if Wikipedia gives the number of bomb victims at the Boelcke Kaserne as 1,200 or 1,300, one has to ask where the difference to the over 1,900 dead who the Americans found did come from, and what made the surviving prisoners look as "corpses on leave"?
4) The responsibility for the high death toll at camp Boelcke Kaserne has to be shared between the (German) SS administration and the (British) RAF.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Hannover » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:01 pm)

Neander said:
At Bergen-Belsen, e.g., the British found magazines full of food, and they distributed it among the liberated prisoners. The same was the case with camp Dora, where about 600 sick prisoners were left, together with prisoner doctors. Until VE day, there was enough to eat, not very much, but enough for about 70 million Germans, so there would have been also something left for a few hundred thousand CC prisoners, less than 1 per cent of the population.
Please show us the proof. Certainly the British would have documented the 'magazines full of food while inmates starved' claim. And of course, if this were true, certainly the inmates and doctors would have helped themselves to these "magazines full of food" when the Germans left.

Neander said:
There was an order from the Reich Main Security Office that CC prisoners, as well as Jews still living in Germany (those few who were protected by an "Aryan" spouse) and foreign forced laborers, were not allowed to enter air raid shelters during an air raid. They should function as a kind of "living shield" against bombing.
What "order"? Come on Neander, show us this "order".

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:14 pm)

Dear Hannover,

there is ample scholarly literature about Bergen-Belsen, based on contemporary camp documents. Go to a good library, ask the librarian, or make a try with Google. Many documents are in the Belsen war crimes trial files, accessible at the Public Record Office, Kew, UK, or in copies at the Bergen-Belsen memorial. I used them, among other things, for my dissertation, since - as you as an expert on concentration camps for sure know - the bulk of the Mittelbau prisoners were evacuated to B-B. But I am afraid that you will say that they were either forged or coerced. Sorry, but I don't have better ones.

Re. the order prohibiting Jews, CC prisoners and forced laborers to seek shelter during Allied air raids on German cities, I would also advise you to ask a reference librarian from the next university library. They are - as far as my experience goes - all nice people and willing to help researchers.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby The Warden » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:37 pm)

I don't see how the conditions of the camp have anything to do with the photo in the OP.
The photo was taken after the RAF bombings. The bodies are those of residents.

End of story.

The rest of the hodgepodge thrown in here is moot.
I hardly think anyone should be blaming the Germans for keeping food for themselves instead of offering it to prisoners, especially while they were in the process of losing the war. And I certainly don't think anyone expected the Allies to ship food into the camps for the prisoners since they're the ones that enabled the stoppage of shipments to Germany, along with the destruction of the infrastructure which would've gotten it there in the first place. The usual problem is intent. The Germans never intended to starve anyone, however much the "Exaggerationists" would like you to believe so. Starvation was a byproduct of war. Leave it to the hoax-spreading clods to try and monopolize opportunities to spread their stranglehold on the victim industry. But I digress...
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Moderator3 » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:29 pm)

joachim neander wrote:Dear Hannover,

there is ample scholarly literature about Bergen-Belsen, based on contemporary camp documents. Go to a good library, ask the librarian, or make a try with Google. Many documents are in the Belsen war crimes trial files, accessible at the Public Record Office, Kew, UK, or in copies at the Bergen-Belsen memorial. I used them, among other things, for my dissertation, since - as you as an expert on concentration camps for sure know - the bulk of the Mittelbau prisoners were evacuated to B-B. But I am afraid that you will say that they were either forged or coerced. Sorry, but I don't have better ones.

Re. the order prohibiting Jews, CC prisoners and forced laborers to seek shelter during Allied air raids on German cities, I would also advise you to ask a reference librarian from the next university library. They are - as far as my experience goes - all nice people and willing to help researchers.

Mr. Neander,
Your responses to Hannover's challenges lack confidence and are nothing less than dodging. It was you who made the claims that Hannover is questioning; you even claim to have used them in your dissertation. Unless you question their veracity, it shouldn't be difficult to produce them. Post what you believe to be evidence for your position or leave the thread. That's what the guidelines say, you agreed to them.
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Re: Help with a picture

Postby gbrecht » 9 years 7 months ago (Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:33 pm)

Joachim if you wrote your dissertation on this subject, you should be able to answer my questions.

How many could the air raid shelters at Nordhausen, specifically Boelcke-Kaserne as you said, hold?

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Hektor » 9 years 7 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:57 am)

joachim neander wrote:... At Bergen-Belsen, e.g., the British found magazines full of food, and they distributed it among the liberated prisoners. The same was the case with camp Dora, where about 600 sick prisoners were left, together with prisoner doctors. Until VE day, there was enough to eat, not very much, but enough for about 70 million Germans, so there would have been also something left for a few hundred thousand CC prisoners, less than 1 per cent of the population. ...
Now that is of course contradicting any claims that their was a policy to exterminate the prisoners via starvation or otherwise. I presume that feeding problems in 1944/45 were less a problem of quantity, but rather of distribution.

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Re: Help with a picture

Postby Malle » 9 years 7 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:03 am)

Hektor wrote:
joachim neander wrote:... At Bergen-Belsen, e.g., the British found magazines full of food, and they distributed it among the liberated prisoners. The same was the case with camp Dora, where about 600 sick prisoners were left, together with prisoner doctors. Until VE day, there was enough to eat, not very much, but enough for about 70 million Germans, so there would have been also something left for a few hundred thousand CC prisoners, less than 1 per cent of the population. ...
Now that is of course contradicting any claims that their was a policy to exterminate the prisoners via starvation or otherwise. I presume that feeding problems in 1944/45 were less a problem of quantity, but rather of distribution.


Quite correct about distribution. The Camp Commander Kramer appealed for help in a letter to Gruppenführer Richard Glücks, who was the head of the SS camp administration. Excerpts from Kramer's letter are quoted below:

If I had sufficient sleeping accommodation at my disposal, then the accommodation of the detainees who have already arrived and of those still to come would appear more possible. In addition to this question a spotted fever and typhus epidemic has now begun, which increases in extent every day. The daily mortality rate, which was still in the region of 60-70 at the beginning of February, has in the meantime attained a daily average of 250-300 and will increase still further in view of the conditions which at present prevail.


Supply. When I took over the camp, winter supplies for 1500 internees had been indented for; some had been received, but the greater part had not been delivered. This failure was due not only to difficulties of transport, but also to the fact that practically nothing is available in this area and all must be brought from outside the area [...]


For the last four days there has been no delivery [of food] from Hannover owing to interrupted communications, and I shall be compelled, if this state of affairs prevails till the end of the week, to fetch bread also by means of truck from Hannover. The trucks allotted to the local unit are in no way adequate for this work, and I am compelled to ask for at least three to four trucks and five to six trailers. When I once have here a means of towing then I can send out the trailers into the surrounding area [...] The supply question must, without fail, be cleared up in the next few days. I ask you, Gruppenführer, for an allocation of transport [...]


State of Health. The incidence of disease is very high here in proportion to the number of detainees. When you interviewed me on Dec. 1, 1944, at Oranienburg, you told me that Bergen-Belsen was to serve as a sick camp for all concentration camps in northern Germany. The number of sick has greatly increased, particularly on account of the transports of detainees that have arrived from the East in recent times -- these transports have sometimes spent eight or fourteen days in open trucks [...]


The fight against spotted fever is made extremely difficult by the lack of means of disinfection. Due to constant use, the hot-air delousing machine is now in bad working order and sometimes fails for several days [...]


A catastrophe is taking place for which no one wishes to assume responsibility [...] Gruppenführer, I can assure you that from this end everything will be done to overcome the present crisis [...]


I am now asking you for your assistance as it lies in your power. In addition to the above-mentioned points, I need here, before everything, accommodation facilities, beds, blankets, eating utensils -- all for about 20,000 internees [...] I implore your help in overcoming this situation.


This tells us that the Germans couldn’t distribute almost nothing because of the bombings from allied aircrafts.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.


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