Chelmno

[isabelle]

Hello I'm looking for information about Chelmno

I have lots of questions

#1 how many bodies are buried in how many graves?

[Moderator3]

Isabelle,
see:
The CODOH Revisionist Library
http://www.codoh.com/index2.shtml
select:
Holocaust Revisionism
http://www.codoh.com/revision.html

Also use our forum search function for 'Chelmno', you will find plenty.

Welcome to the CODOH Revisionist Forum, Moderator 3

[isabelle]

the most common figure that i see being used is 320,000 (yad vashem)

and the number of graves that i see claimed is 5

320,000 bodies in 5 mass graves

what i would like to know now is were any human remains found in grave one

The first grave.
During the first research in the cemetery in 1986, we came across a trace of, most likely, one of the two first graves, described by District Forester Heinz May in his account. The 2003 research examined the extent of the grave. It is situated parallel to an old forest track (about 18 m towards the West) running through the clearing marked as plot II along the NW-SE line. The grave has an irregular shape; the width of the northern part can be established at 8 m and narrows by 3 meters towards the south. Its length equals 62 m. More or less in the middle, it is cut by a concrete road of the period between 1962 and 1964. Its irregular shape and relatively insignificant length in comparison with the other graves indicate that the grave was dug by hand. Under the humus, on the top of the ash layer, we found several unburned objects belonging to the victims. These are: flatware, a mirror with the image of a young woman on the back, a bottle, a toothbrush, a full box of the Nicea cream (with the inscription "Posen"). Finding small objects belonging to the victims may confirm the assumption that the grave comes from the initial period of the center operation, when, most likely, a certain number of people were buried with their clothes (January 1942). While uncovering the grave we noticed that the earth must have contained some active substances: protective rubber gloves became destroyed. Collected earth samples were examined by the Karol Marcinkowski University of Medical Sciences in Poznań, Department of Forensic Medicine. Caustic substances in the grave may provide evidence for experiments connected with liquidation of corpses. The special unit (Sonderkommando) under the command of SS Hauptsturmführer Herbert Lange, which in autumn 1941 in the Kazimierz Forest near Konin killed an undetermined group of victims by boiling them alive in pits filled with quicklime, was later transferred to the center in Chełmno at that time being established. It seems very likely that the attempts to liquidate the corpses with the use of lime were shifted to Chełmno. This method apparently did not prove successful with a significant number of bodies. In the cemetery thus far we have not come across another such place where the earth would contain active chemical substances.

what did the earth samples examined by the Karol Marcinkowski University of Medical Sciences in Poznań, Department of Forensic Medicine find?

not one mention of human remains or bones of any kind

was any human remains found in grave number one

[isabelle]

what im now understanding is "grave" # 1 is not even being called a grave

its been admitted that no human remains have ever been found in this "grave"

its being claimed that "grave" number one is "most likely" a "former" grave

is my understanding correct?

also i understand that this map

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pi ... forest.jpg

is not a map of the "graves" but a map of the memorial

the 5 "graves" shown are simply memorials "representing" the graves

is my understanding correct?

if so does anyone know where i can find a map of the "real graves" that were claimed to have been located

thank you

[isabelle]

could anyone comment on this paper

http://presentpasts.info/index.php/pp/article/view/2/2

1. The Excavations of Chełmno...

The excavations at the Rzuchów forest (Fig. 6), focused mainly on five mass graves (Pawlicka-Nowak, 2004a: 22-24, Pawlicka-Nowak, 2004b: 59-64)...

Conclusions

Of the four Nazi extermination centres very little is known archaeologically.

How can very little be known archaeologically if there were archaeological excavations?

They [the 5 graves] were filled with grey soil, burnt waste and ground human bones.

Archaeological excavations revealed that the remains of 320,000 bodies were found in 4 mass graves and "very little is known archaeologically"?

This isn't making sense at all

[isabelle]

is no information about chelmno available here

where would be the best place to find information about chelmno

what about books

what are best books to read about chelmno

thank you

[Reinhard]

@ Isabelle:

For information on Chelmno see for example Ingrid Weckert's article What Was Kulmhof/Chelmno? Questions about a controversial extermination camp:

http://vho.org/tr/2003/4/Weckert400-412.html

[Cloud]

is no information about chelmno available here

where would be the best place to find information about chelmno

what about books

what are best books to read about chelmno

thank you

According to this:

http://www.tadp.org/

there should be a Chelmno book coming out in mid 2011. But that's far into the future.

[David Baker]

Isabelle, you're not alone in your confusion. Recently, the Israeli leadership ostensibly ended all speculation about the Holocaust when they displayed a blueprint of plans for an "Extermination Camp", which included gas chambers. This was in response to claims by Iranian leaders that the Holocaust was a fraud. Here's where that blueprint story fails the smell test: Apparently, these plans were found in someone's empty apartment. This may explain why they were not 'available'..... during the Nuremberg tribunal, nor where they 'available'.... during the Zundel trial in Canada. (They are also not 'available'....for examination by revisionists.) If you understand the environment of Nuremberg during those proceedings, you will know that many witnesses were allowed to indulge the court with complete fabrications. Ridiculous execution methods were described which now seem comical when compared to more plausible 'evidence'. Weisel's trenches full of burning babies were slowly relegated to flights of fantasy, and mystical, grotesque delusions. But one overriding factor was apparent during this event: Not one forensic investigation was carried out to verify any witness testimony. When the entire Holocaust story is subjected to ANY scrutiny, it withers into a compilation of baloney, rumors, exaggerations and extended war propaganda campaigns. Save the spirited, polished displays of indignance by said witnesses, or supposed experts on the subject toward a cold, reasoning attempt to forensically verify their claims, the Jewish "Holocaust" has been rendered a gross fabrication.

[Occam's Razor]

David Baker wrote:

Recently, the Israeli leadership ostensibly ended all speculation about the Holocaust when they displayed a blueprint of plans for an "Extermination Camp", which included gas chambers. This was in response to claims by Iranian leaders that the Holocaust was a fraud. Here's where that blueprint story fails the smell test: Apparently, these plans were found in someone's empty apartment. This may explain why they were not 'available'..... during the Nuremberg tribunal, nor where they 'available'.... during the Zundel trial in Canada. (They are also not 'available'....for examination by revisionists.)

These plans are blueprints of BW5a and BW5b, delousing facilities in Auschwitz-Birkenau. That's why the word "Gaskammer" appears on these plans. BW stands for "Bauwerk", which means building in German. The term "Gaskammer" was used in official wartime literature about delousing gas chambers. And the plans don't mention anything about "Extermination Camp" or s.th. like that. These buildings still exist and can be examined and these are the buildings where blue stainings from the use of Zyklon B for delousing are still visible and where Leuchter and Rudolf took samples to compare them with the alleged homicidal gas chambers in the crematorium buildings. No one has ever claimed that humans were gassed in these buildings. No eyewitness and no historian. People were given a shower and their clothes were deloused with Zyklon B ind the "Gaskammer". You can see in the blueprints that the building had a "dirty side" and a "clean side", which was typical for delousing buildings. The words "unreine Seite" (dirty side) and "reine Seite" (clean side) appear in the plan. The plans of these buildings were known for years, you can find them in Rudolf's or Pressac's books. Even atrocity propagandist and self-proclaimed historian Robert Jan van Pelt publicly admitted it. The plans are totally innocent. But to no avail. Benjamin Netanyahu proclaimed in front of the whole UN assembly that these plans were proof that the holocaust happened. In reality it was one of the most embarrassing moments for the upholders of the traditional holocaust narrative. And the better ones among them know it.

[David Baker]

Occams Razor,
Yes, I know about delousing facilities, but if you saw the broadcast containing images of Israel's leaders perusing those plans, along with the shrill verbiage of the news anchor as she excoriated all revisionists for disbelieving Jewish witnesses, you would know the premise of this news report was that no one may now question any aspect of the Holocaust, because those plans were the ultimate exhibit on the subject. It is obvious that the goal of Jewish "Exterminationists" is to never allow any scrutiny of the gas chamber claims. They simply default to a scripted harangue aimed at skeptics which is meant to demonize, mischaracterize and codify them as anything but skeptics, or simply objective researchers.

[isabelle]

thanks for the help all

but this is getting off track

im looking for information about the graves

graves that were located by archaeological investigations

and the amount of human remains found in each grave

and im still looking for a map of the graves themselves

not a map of the memorial

also photos of the excavations themselves

and the results of the earth samples examined by the Karol Marcinkowski University of Medical Sciences in Poznań, Department of Forensic Medicine

also books

what books have been writen about the excavations

thank

[isabelle]

please help with this

It's one thing to hear about the crematory, it's another to stand inside an enormous pit that is filled with human bones," says Krzysztof Gorczyca, an archaeologist who directed last summer's excavation. "Only then did it occur to me just how many people were murdered here.

is this quote legitimate

does anyone have the source of thes quote

does it come from a book written about chelmno

[David Baker]

Isabelle,

No matter what we say on the subject of mass graves in Poland, or gassings/cremations at Auschwitz, the fact remains that laws in that country forbid anyone from expressing doubt about the Holocaust. They could claim hundreds of thousands of people are buried at Chelmno, but there is no way for researchers, skeptics or revisionists to forensically verify the figures without subjecting themselves to a prison sentence. The man you've quoted, I'm sure, is well aware that if he didn't utter remarks affirming the Holocaust, he too would be in jail for a lengthy period. In America, we have brave researchers who at least aren't encumbered by penal statutes (yet...) but who are professionally ostracized (myself included) harassed by polemic Jews on the internet, and sometimes physically threatened, intimidated, 'shadowed', blackmailed (anyone we know?...) and even deported! But these incidents pale in comparison to the European episodes. Always remember this, Isabelle; The entire Jewish Holocaust is comprised of nothing more than a visceral, histrionic reaction by Jews toward any attempt to verify it. In Europe, violent 'enforcers' go well beyond the pale of simple disagreement.

[isabelle]

do you have any answers to my questions david

it seems you try very hard to steer this thread away from archaeology / mass graves

im looking for answers please