The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:41 am)

joachim neander wrote:At Birkenau, the camp hospital (Häftlingskrankenbau, abbreviated HKB, in camp parlance das Revier) was run by prisoner doctors. There were also SS doctors and paramedics, but they treated SS personnel in the SS hospital, which was outside the camp, and in rare cases, non-Jewish German (Reichsdeutsch) prisoners within the camp, but never Jews. As the SS was very much afraid of contagious diseases, the supervision of the HKB was rather superficial. Therefore the prisoner doctors had much leeway, and many of them did their best for the sick inmates. Their best - because, as Wiesel rightfully remarks, their means were very much limited. There was a chronic lack of medicines, vaccines, and dressing material, and operations on the prisoners had to be carried out under primitive conditions.
There is one big problem in understanding Birkenau, by Revisionists as well as by the uninformed masses: Birkenau was by far not only a place of mass killing (doubted by Revisionists), but also a huge forced labor camp and a giant turntable for hundreds of thousands of men and women, who were sent from there to CCs in the Reich as forced laborers. These functions existed side by side. That makes Birkenau unique in the system of Nazi concentration camps and has lead to many misconceptions.


You present yourself as an expert without ever providing documentation or sources for your propaganda. I guess you post here to provide a counter for those newbies and uninitiated who come here to see what they can learn because you sure don't fool the members who have done their homework on these topics.

As for "Wiesel rightfully remarking" on the quality of the medical care in Birkenau --- the Wiesel you refer to probably was not even there and the story in Night was written by someone else, but be that as it may --- if "the SS was very much afraid of contagious diseases" as you say, why does Wiesel in his book have the SS constantly in the barracks abusing prisoners like his sick father, mostly just out of meanness? It is my understanding that the SS guards did not go into the barracks; that's what the block leaders were for. Yet in Wiesel's book and so many other survivor stories, the SS guards are portrayed as intimately involved with the prisoners in an abusive manner, in the barracks, in the infirmaries, in the latrines ... everywhere. It's all fiction and cannot be pointed to as proof of anything.

You write this:
Therefore the prisoner doctors had much leeway, and many of them did their best for the sick inmates. Their best - because, as Wiesel rightfully remarks, their means were very much limited. There was a chronic lack of medicines, vaccines, and dressing material, and operations on the prisoners had to be carried out under primitive conditions.

You are just making this up based on what has been "passed down." How do you think the operating conditions at the Front and to the rear of the Front were being carried out? Under pristine conditions? As Eric asked and you ignored: Why wasn't Wiesel just sent to the gas chamber? Why take care of his foot at all? A weakling like him couldn't have been all that valuable.

An additional, very important point: In All Rivers Run to the Sea, Wiesel writes about his KNEE operation, on page 90.
One of the doctors, a tall, kind-looking man, tried to comfort me. "It won't hurt, or not much anyway. Don't worry, my boy, you'll live." He talked to me before the operation, and I heard him again when I woke up. I believe he had kept talking the whole time.


Even in Night, page 83-84, it reads
At ten o-clock in the morning, they took me into the operating room. "My" doctor was there. I took comfort from this. I felt that nothing serious could happen while he was there. There was balm in every word he spoke, and every glance he gave me held a message of hope. "It will hurt you a bit," he said, "but that will pass. Grit your teeth." The operation lasted an hour. They had not put me to sleep. I kept my eyes fixed upon my doctor. Then I felt myself go under ... When I came round, opening my eyes, I could see nothing at first but a great whiteness, my sheets, then I noticed the face of my doctor bending over me: "Everything went off well. You're brave, my boy. Now you're going to stay here for two weeks, rest comfortably and it will be over. You'll eat well, and relax your body and your nerves."


In this account, he says they did not put him to sleep, but they obviously gave him a heavy local anesthetic and probably some kind of tranquilizers. I personally have been through surgery more than once with local anethetic, which is preferable to being "put under" which is more dangerous and mainly for the convenience of the doctors and nurses. Or for scaredy cats. These passages do not fit the common holo promotion from people like Zisblatt that prisoners were operated on without anesthetic. And you subtly push that same idea.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:53 am)

Eric is asking "if the holocaust happened, then why would they not just kill Wiesel"?

But the believer point of view might be this: According to Hilberg, the killing operations were ended in Nov. 1944. Hilberg even describes cleaning out the ovens. Wiesel had his operation after that in 1945. In other words if you made the "cut" when you arrived at Auschwitz, then you not only lived, but might play soccer, be in an orchestra, or swim in a pool, after a long work day. The "Musselman" state of being turned into a sickly body doesn't fit this so well though.

That would be the believer view anyway, I think.
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Carolyn wrote
I'm sorry, but you are really full of it. You present yourself as an expert without ever providing documentation or sources for your propaganda.

That's an ad hominem attack. You can't do that here.

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:28 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Eric is asking "if the holocaust happened, then why would they not just kill Wiesel"?

But the believer point of view might be this: According to Hilberg, the killing operations were ended in Nov. 1944. Hilberg even describes cleaning out the ovens. Wiesel had his operation after that in 1945. In other words if you made the "cut" when you arrived at Auschwitz, then you not only lived, but might play soccer, be in an orchestra, or swim in a pool, after a long work day. The "Musselman" state of being turned into a sickly body doesn't fit this so well though.

That would be the believer view anyway, I think.
-------------------------------
Carolyn wrote
I'm sorry, but you are really full of it. You present yourself as an expert without ever providing documentation or sources for your propaganda.

That's an ad hominem attack. You can't do that here.


Part 1: Inmates played soccer and were in orchestras from the beginning of A-B existence. They swam in the pool as soon as it was built. It was not only after Nov. 1944.

Part 2: You cannot exercise dishonesty here either. I am stating an observation that should be plain to everyone; it's not ad hominem, it's earned.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Eric Hunt » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:33 pm)

Alright, I'm very interested in seeing other pages and hopefully the whole book translated.

Hopefully Dr. Neander would be kind enough to do that.

(I digress, but of course the soccer fields would have been used mostly in the warmer months prior to the alleged ceasing of gassings.)
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:02 pm)

Dear Mr. Hunt,

I'm afraid you believe things about Auschwitz that, maybe, someone has told some time, but that did not happen as told.

First, to understand Auschwitz, it is absolutely necessary to distinguish between the main camp, aka Auschwitz I, Birkenau, aka Auschwitz II, and the ca. 30 sub-camps, the biggest of them having been Monowitz aka Buna.

All sub-camps were labor camps, with working and living conditions varying to a great degree in space and time. Also the majority of the inmates of Au I and II were first and foremost forced laborers. A prisoner clerk in the camp administration or a biologist at one of the experimental farms had a far better life than a prisoner working underground in a coal mine. In its heydays, all Auschwitz camps together had about 150,000 inmates, comparable to a middle-sized European town. Most prisoners - and even most of the SS crew - saw and/or experienced only a small segment of the camp life. The "Auschwitz" that a Reichsdeutsch political prisoner with a job in the camp administration or in the HKB experienced was totally different from the "Auschwitz" of a Hungarian Jew, who had to work with only primitive tools 700 meters below ground in a two-feet high gallery of a wet and sticky coal mine.

Another point often forgotten is that "Auschwitz" was continuously changing at a very rapid pace. A Polish political prisoners, who arrived with one of the first transports, experienced an "Auschwitz" totally different from that which a citizen of Warsaw, deported to Auschwitz after the 1944 ("Aryan") revolt experienced. Auschwitz was not only the by far biggest Nazi CC (with 400,000 registered prisoners alone and another >100,000 "transit" Jews and Poles), it also had far more survivors than any other CC. Taking into account all this, it is not only not surprising, but to be expected that no two survivor memoirs are identical. Even if we cross out the "Zisblatts," differences in the memoirs and testimonies are unavoidable. It is bad (or better said, no) scholarship to generalize a single memoir as "the ultimate" Auschwitz memoir ("blind believers"), as well as throwing the baby out with the bath water: rejecting all survivor testimony because of seeming discrepancies (to which Revisionists tend), which, as a rule, can be explained by the differences in place and time to which the testimonies refer. But this is hard work, time-consuming and not always rewarding.

You have a problem with Wiesel's sick foot. What I read, seems plausible. He feels pain in his foot, most probably from an infection. He can barely walk and reports to the HKB. At the entry is an SS man (about whom we don't hear), who decides on acceptance of the prisoner to the HKB. The standard criterion is: Does the prisoner look like someone who will be fit for work again within less than 3 weeks? This decision is not made after a medical examination, but judged by appearance. Wiesel obviously gets an ok, otherwise he could not have entered the HKB. There the rule of the SS ("the Germans") is suspended. He is looked after by fellow prisoners, who decide what to do with him. The prisoner doctor decides to operate, obviously not to amputate the foot. Or does Wiesel write this in the following?

Another problem you have with the postcards, the soccer games, the orchestras, etc. Yes, all this did exist some time (!), and you could add e.g. the brothel. BUT - and this a big BUT - it was only for a tiny minority among the prisoners, as a rule Reichsdeutsch and Polish prisoner functionaries. Only in the orchestras Jews and Gypsies could play (one must have been able to play an instrument), in addition to the "regular" work the orchestra members had to do in their work details. And they did not play for themselves or for the entertainment of the prisoners, but for the entertainment of the SS crew and some "Aryan" prisoner functionaries.

During a certain period of time, some (!) prisoners received Prämienscheine - not "money"- for "good" work. I have seen many of those lists, and it were, as a rule, only Kapos and foremen (as a rule, Reichsdeutsche or Poles) who received them. The only thing the prisoners could do with these was to change them at the Häftlingskantine for consumer goods. The offer, however, was extremely poor: tooth paste, salt, canned sour cucumbers or beetroots, carrots, rusks - no bread, no sugar, no fat, no meat, no tobacco (the "black market" currency within the camp), no soap. Please don't think that the Häftlingskantine was kind of an American grocery store!

I know well that may "blind believers" and Revisionists have the same problem: making inadmissible generalizations. Reality at Auschwitz (and the other CCs, too) was very complicated, and those professional historians who have studied the camps in much detail, admit frankly that they ever now and again find something new, something unexpected.

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:52 pm)

Eric,

You could try an OCR (Optical Character Reading) program, then you could feed the result into the translation application in larger chunks. I found this one for Yiddish. http://www.tichnut.de/jewish/yiddishocr.html Be careful though; my antivirus (Avast) flagged it as a Trojan. This does seem unlikely as there is a whole site devoted to the program and I was directed to it from another related site.

The commercial Abbyy Finereader will read PDFs directly, and claims to support Yiddish, though you may have to install extra language support on your Windows.

http://finereader.abbyy.com/what_is_new/

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Eric Hunt » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:43 pm)

Another problem you have with the postcards, the soccer games, the orchestras, etc. Yes, all this did exist some time (!), and you could add e.g. the brothel. BUT - and this a big BUT - it was only for a tiny minority among the prisoners, as a rule Reichsdeutsch and Polish prisoner functionaries. Only in the orchestras Jews and Gypsies could play (one must have been able to play an instrument), in addition to the "regular" work the orchestra members had to do in their work details. And they did not play for themselves or for the entertainment of the prisoners, but for the entertainment of the SS crew and some "Aryan" prisoner functionaries.


Sorry Dr. Neander, I'm not making generalizations.
See, I just got back from accessing the Shoah foundation archives. Several Jews surprisingly tell the truth. They all talk about "coupons" they used at the canteen. (Yes, Jews) they talk about playing on soccer teams (Yes, Jews) at multiple camps.

So, no, I'm not making generalizations at all. These are facts those who wish to portray a Biblical good vs evil scenario within the camps have suppressed for years.
Last edited by Eric Hunt on Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Eric Hunt » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:47 pm)

joachim neander wrote:Dear Mr. Hunt,

I know well that may "blind believers" and Revisionists have the same problem: making inadmissible generalizations. Reality at Auschwitz (and the other CCs, too) was very complicated, and those professional historians who have studied the camps in much detail, admit frankly that they ever now and again find something new, something unexpected.


Yes, Dr. Neander the time for you to admit something new and unexpected will be as soon as I post the many videos confirming what you falsely assumed to be generalizations.

In fact, it's the professional propagandists who are generalizing while suppressing us lowly amateur historians.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:50 pm)

joachim neander wrote:You have a problem with Wiesel's sick foot. What I read, seems plausible. He feels pain in his foot, most probably from an infection. He can barely walk and reports to the HKB. At the entry is an SS man (about whom we don't hear), who decides on acceptance of the prisoner to the HKB. The standard criterion is: Does the prisoner look like someone who will be fit for work again within less than 3 weeks? This decision is not made after a medical examination, but judged by appearance. Wiesel obviously gets an ok, otherwise he could not have entered the HKB. There the rule of the SS ("the Germans") is suspended. He is looked after by fellow prisoners, who decide what to do with him. The prisoner doctor decides to operate, obviously not to amputate the foot. Or does Wiesel write this in the following?


Joachim,
Since you are a believer in Wiesel's story, please account for why he replaced his "sick foot, probably infected" and requiring surgery in Night, every word of which is absolutely true as stated under oath at Eric's trial .... with a swollen knee in his 1995 memoir, All Rivers ..., which is also a truthful account of his life.

In that story, his knee was operated on, but he didn't speak of any problems with it again immediately upon leaving the hospital. He did speak of having knee problems later in life, perhaps relating it back to this time, I don't recall, but I can look it up when necessary.

Why don't any holocaust scholars, including yourself, comment on such a blatant descrepancy? Please ... I invite you to do so. Don't avoid it.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Eric Hunt » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:56 pm)

joachim neander wrote:
During a certain period of time, some (!) prisoners received Prämienscheine - not "money"- for "good" work. I have seen many of those lists, and it were, as a rule, only Kapos and foremen (as a rule, Reichsdeutsche or Poles) who received them. The only thing the prisoners could do with these was to change them at the Häftlingskantine for consumer goods. The offer, however, was extremely poor: tooth paste, salt, canned sour cucumbers or beetroots, carrots, rusks - no bread, no sugar, no fat, no meat, no tobacco (the "black market" currency within the camp), no soap. Please don't think that the Häftlingskantine was kind of an American grocery store!
.


There WERE cigarettes, and beer at the Buchenwald cantina.
And my previous questioning if this was a Jewish doctor will e explained in a video I'm putting together, covering all your false claims regarding Jews not allowed to play soccer, get paid with currency, receive and send mail, etc.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:21 pm)

The sick foot turning into a bad knee is really interesting, but could that be the case? A liar would make that sort of mistake, but surely with the success of Night, and with Wiesel speaking time and again about Auschwitz he couldn't possible make this mistake in his lie-story, or did he? He must have been very familar with everything said in Night.

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:53 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:The sick foot turning into a bad knee is really interesting, but could that be the case? A liar would make that sort of mistake, but surely with the success of Night, and with Wiesel speaking time and again about Auschwitz he couldn't possible make this mistake in his lie-story, or did he? He must have been very familar with everything said in Night.


Well, I'm glad someone found it interesting. A liar would make that mistake, you say? I guess that's the answer. I'm not making it up and I'm not the liar. I'm taking it directly out of the book. On page 89:
January 1945. Every January carries me back to that one. I was sick. My knee was swollen, and the pain turned my gait into a limp. The merciless Silesian winter ... blah, blah, blah ... I knew that whatever strength I retained would soon desert me.


Page 90:
That evening, before roll call, I went to the KB. My father waited for me outside [....] At last my turn came. A doctor glanced at my knee, touched it. I stifled a scream. "You need an operation," he said. "Immediately." I managed to make my way back to my father, who hadn't budged. "They're going to oprate," I told him. He didn't react. "They're going to operate." I repeated.
[....]
I went back to the infirmary, where another human "miracle" awaited me: One of the doctors, a tall, kind looking man, tried to comfort me. "It won't hurt, or not too much anyway. Don't worry, my boy, you'll live." He talked to me before the operation, and I heard him again when I woke up. I believe he had kept talking the whole time.


Page 91:
Rumors and images. January 18, 1945. The Red Army ..... Berlin decides to evacuate prisoners to Germany's interior. Feverish activity sweeps over the camp. [...] My father came to see me in the hospital ... I told him the patients would be allowed to stay in the KB but .... you could stay with me, couldn't you?" He asked if that was really possible. I told him it was. There was room, and surveillance had been relaxed. ... It was a tempting idea, but finally we decided against it. We were afraid. [...] We therefore decided to leave with the others, especially since most of the doctors were being evacuated too.
lol, the doctors probably had the choice and decided to go with the Germans.

Wiesel never once mentions his knee (or a foot) after that, on the march through the snow. He only allots one paragraph to the march and then they're in Buchenwald. His effort from here on is to show how traumatic was the death of his father, whereas in Night he is sometimes cold to his father and blames the Germans for turning him into a monster.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 5 months ago (Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:10 am)

It's very odd that he walks into the Infirmary, and immediately someone is operating on him in a serious enough way that he is put under, because he "wakes up" afterward. But there was no preparation time or analyzing a proper diagnosis.

Even more odd is that Wiesel gives no description of what was wrong with his knee or what kind of surgery he had. All human beings are interested in the details and causes of their own ailments. This is another instance where he is vague because he's lying and is afraid to make up too many details for fear he will somehow give it away. The less said the better. But he had to account for the "foot operation" in Night.

One has to conclude he was never in a hospital there, or he would have had more to say about it. That's just human nature. When he writes about his accident in New York, when he flew an entire city block, he tells a lot about his time in the hospital ... because he was really there and had real memories.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby jackmartin » 9 years 5 months ago (Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:52 am)

Eric Hunt wrote:
"I don't buy that the camp documents Gruner writes about don't describe Wiesel and his father.
I think they do, Abraham dying in the same way Salomon did.
Even major differences in dates on these documents are normal.
So, I don't agree with the "Stolen Identity" claims at all..."


Said camp documents give Lazar Wiesel's year of birth as 1913 and the relative's name as Abram or Abraham... a far cry from Shlomo.

Of course they could have gotten the year wrong, but then to have gotten the name of the father/brother(?) wrong on the adjacent line seems improbable.

Certainly Gruner's story of his experiences is unbelievable... but hardly more unbelievable than Elie's grim fairy tale.

And were Gruner not sure of his ground it would seem very unlikey that he would have thus exposed himself to ridicule and possible legal action.

Is any "survivor's story believable ... any that does not have the appearance of having been written in an asylum?
I know of none.

By now "Elie" Wiesel, or whoever he is, is well aware of the controversy over both his claims and his identity. If he is genuine, one would expect that he would jump at the oportunity to substantiate same and trounce his detractors.

Certainly he is not the least bit publicity shy and he would not likely pass up the chance to discredit the revisionists whom he clearly despises.

The ball is in Wiesel's court...
Does anybody want to hold his breath waiting?

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 5 months ago (Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:05 am)

@ Eric Hunt:

I stand corrected - I looked up some of my notes and found out that, in some VERY RARE cases, also Jewish prisoners were allowed to participate in a soccer game, even to use the fire brigade's water reservoirs for swimming. Maybe at a certain time, cigarettes were available at Buchenwald. I would not question this offhand. Buchenwald was, at least under Pister, sort of a "model camp," and the living conditions, particularly for the political prisoners, until the end of 1944 were far better there than at Auschwitz, where things never ended to be makeshift (see e.g. the Höß memoirs).

The error you and other Revisionists make is that you pick out the "raisins" and generalize them to paint a cozy picture of life in the camps. Yes, it is true, there were prisoners, particularly among the higher prisoner functionaries, who had quite an agreeable life in camp, and everyday life even at Birkenau was not permanent slave labor, torture and killing, though exactly these were the main purposes of this camp. 2 or 3 Jews some time allowed to kick a ball in a soccer game or to play in the camp orchestra (BTW, both for the entertainment of the SS crew) are the proverbial exception that proves the rule. I would not wish the fate of a Jew at Auschwitz for even my worst enemy!


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