The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby nathan » 9 years 9 months ago (Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:31 pm)

Eric Hunt writes
Here's the problem - you and the people who have hope that the documents prove Wiesel to be an impostor deliberately ignore the other documents, which describe a Lazar Wiesel with number a-7713 born within 5 or so days w Elie Wiesel's stated birthday.


I myself do not believe that Elie Wiesel is anything other than the rascal he seems to be. And I do not believe that he would be fool enough wander around in his shirt sleeves after having publicly boasted about a non-existent tattoo. On the other hand, I did not know that there was any wartime document which connects a Lazar Wiesel with both the Auschwitz number A-7713 and the birth year 1928


Where can we find such a document?



Speaking of Night, Faurisson has written.

There is one single allusion[to gas chambers], extremely vague and fleeting, on pages 78-79: Wiesel, who very much likes to have conversations with God, says to Him: "But these men here, whom You have betrayed, whom You have allowed to be tortured, butchered, gassed, burned, what do they do? They pray before you!"


The allusion was so vague and fleeting that German translations apparently felt they had to had to improve upon it by translating occurrences of “crematorium” as “gas chamber”. “Night” has been counted by revisionists as a positive evidence for hospital care in Auschwitz and negative evidence against gas chambers. It cannot be so used by them if its author was never in Auschwitz.


I assume it is not yet disputed that the author of the long Yiddish volume was in Auschwitz. I assume that this author, whoever he was, does describe hospital care. Perhaps Dr Neander, if he has the time and the access, could compare for accuracy the original passage with the one quoted by Faurisson. Perhaps Eric Hunt, during the long work of translation, could keep an eye out for any incriminating details about gas chambers which might have got lost in the shrunken translation.

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 9 months ago (Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:38 pm)

nathan wrote:Eric Hunt writes
Here's the problem - you and the people who have hope that the documents prove Wiesel to be an impostor deliberately ignore the other documents, which describe a Lazar Wiesel with number a-7713 born within 5 or so days w Elie Wiesel's stated birthday.


I myself do not believe that Elie Wiesel is anything other than the rascal he seems to be. And I do not believe that he would be fool enough wander around in his shirt sleeves after having publicly boasted about a non-existent tattoo. On the other hand, I did not know that there was any wartime document which connects a Lazar Wiesel with both the Auschwitz number A-7713 and the birth year 1928


Where can we find such a document?



Speaking of Night, Faurisson has written.

There is one single allusion[to gas chambers], extremely vague and fleeting, on pages 78-79: Wiesel, who very much likes to have conversations with God, says to Him: "But these men here, whom You have betrayed, whom You have allowed to be tortured, butchered, gassed, burned, what do they do? They pray before you!"


The allusion was so vague and fleeting that German translations apparently felt they had to had to improve upon it by translating occurrences of “crematorium” as “gas chamber”. “Night” has been counted by revisionists as a positive evidence for hospital care in Auschwitz and negative evidence against gas chambers. It cannot be so used by them if its author was never in Auschwitz.


I assume it is not yet disputed that the author of the long Yiddish volume was in Auschwitz. I assume that this author, whoever he was, does describe hospital care. Perhaps Dr Neander, if he has the time and the access, could compare for accuracy the original passage with the one quoted by Faurisson. Perhaps Eric Hunt, during the long work of translation, could keep an eye out for any incriminating details about gas chambers which might have got lost in the shrunken translation.


Nathan,
You bring up some interesting points, but you are also confused about some things. I notice that many are being confused, mainly because they're trying to bring their old ideas about Wiesel and mix them with the new documents.

The document you say you want to find does not connect a Lazar Wiesel with both the Auschwitz number A-7713 and the birth year 1928. The only Lazar Wiesel connected to A-7713 is the one born in 1913. No other Lazar Wiesel is connected to that number. The documents Eric refers to are a transfer document and a questionaire, both from Buchenwald, with a birth date of Oct. 4, 1928 and no ID numbers, except for a recently (1 month previous) deceased inmate's Buchenwald ID#123165 on the questionaire (ID numbers were not normally repeated so this brings up a red flag).
Please go to http://www.eliewieseltattoo.com website and study "The Documents" page under The Evidence on the menu bar.


When Robert Faurisson, whom I naturally respect highly, wrote his articles on Elie Wiesel, these documents had not been revealed ... or at least, they were not widely known. Many revisionst researchers currently working are reluctant to give up their criticisms of Wiesel based on his stories in Night ... as you said above
“Night” has been counted by revisionists as a positive evidence for hospital care in Auschwitz and negative evidence against gas chambers. It cannot be so used by them if its author was never in Auschwitz.
Exactly. I have noticed an unwillingness to give up the idea that EW was at Auschwitz on these very grounds! So I say, it will take some time getting used to this idea.

On the other hand, it seems likely that the original Yiddish book also doesn't mention gas chambers ... that is the very reason EW didn't.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Eric Hunt » 9 years 9 months ago (Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:06 pm)

As far as the "stolen identity" Gruner allegations, this doesn't explain the two surviving Wiesel sisters.

Did they steal the identities of two Wiesel's as well, or did they go along with an "impostor." Just seems like nonsense to me, for this and the many reasons I've already stated.

That he has two sisters who "survived" Auschwitz and Dachau is an embarrassment to Wiesel's portrayal of himself as a walking miracle, and he likes to hide this fact, and didn't mention their fates in Night.

As far as Dr. Neander excusing Night as falling under artistic license, can someone describe what the copyright or title page of this Yiddish book says?

Something about that "This book was submitted as part of the material claims against Germany.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:03 am)

Eric Hunt wrote:As far as the "stolen identity" Gruner allegations, this doesn't explain the two surviving Wiesel sisters.

Did they steal the identities of two Wiesel's as well, or did they go along with an "impostor." Just seems like nonsense to me, for this and the many reasons I've already stated.

That he has two sisters who "survived" Auschwitz and Dachau is an embarrassment to Wiesel's portrayal of himself as a walking miracle, and he likes to hide this fact, and didn't mention their fates in Night.

As far as Dr. Neander excusing Night as falling under artistic license, can someone describe what the copyright or title page of this Yiddish book says?

Something about that "This book was submitted as part of the material claims against Germany.


"The publication of this volume was made possible by a grant from the Cultural Fund of the Conference of Jewish Material Claims against Germany" is what it says. Sounds like a PBS TV program.

In other words, the publisher got money from Germany to publish the books. Do you think they ever use their own money?! And ... Wiesel was covering this Conference for his newspaper in the weeks before he went to Brazil on the ship, when he says he wrote the original manuscript. So he knew all about the Conference and the money that was available, maybe where it went, etc.

My question is: why is this page in a combination of Spanish and English? And the title page in Spanish? Is this the same book that is printed all in Yiddish?

What have you learned about the sisters? You haven't said much. You found their names on one of the survivor lists of Kaufering, a subcamp of Dachau. What more? What's in Hilda's testimony ... nothing?
Wiesel's sisters are not such a problem as you make out. So he has two sisters. They are barely mentioned in Night ... barely. Maybe they are not in Un di Velt ... or again, maybe only barely, so they could have been added.
Something happened to Wiesel's family, for sure. But exactly what happened to Elie is our question. You know, he never made out a "death report" for his mother and little sister at Yad Vashem ... only for his father. Why not? Of course, even Wikipedia now states their death at Auschwitz is only "assumed."
You need to find out what is in Un di Velt before you assume Elie wrote it.

So many questions you're not asking, like why does he say he wrote 862 pages and gave them to Mark Turkov - if he didn't need to say that?! What other source besides All Rivers mentions anything about 862 pages? It must be somewhere else, or why would he invent it and then have to explain all those pages? Lots of questions.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby jackmartin » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:26 am)

Eric Hunt wrote:
"As far as the "stolen identity" Gruner allegations, this doesn't explain the two surviving Wiesel sisters.
Did they steal the identities of two Wiesel's as well, or did they go along with an "impostor." Just seems like nonsense to me, for this and the many reasons I've already stated..."
------------------------------------------------

Eric, I think you're being overhasty with your cavalier dismissal of the question of Elie's identity.

Miklos Gruner's claims, however questionable you may believe them be, present a more than sufficient basis for a thorough investigation into the matter until it is conclusively resolved.

You suggest that Gruner is not believable.
Does that mean that you think "Elie" Wiesel is believable?

This is not a trivial matter... it is huge!

Should it be established that Elie wiesel, the high priest of the "Holocaust" cult, is not the person he has claimed to be for over fifty years, it would demolish every shred of credibility he has.

It would strike a blow for revisionism such as we have not seen since Arthur Butz wrote "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" back in 1976.

It is definitely not a matter to be lightly dismissed.

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby nathan » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:09 am)

Oh, dear. Ou sont les Laurentz Dahl d’antan? Eric Hunt's words suggested, though perhaps he did not mean to suggest, that there has somewhere been found a document which connected a Lazar Wiesel with both the number A7713 and the birth year 1928. I suggested that no such document has been found. Now I am told that I am confused - because no such document has been found. In the interests of accuracy I was raising a small point on the side of the imposter theory, even though on balance I find the whole notion absurd. The most absurd theory usually has something going for it.

Faurisson’s point would fail only if it turns out that the original Yiddish document contained a circumstantial mention of gas chambers. I too think that is “unlikely”, but we shall not know until we see a trustworthy translation.

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:19 am)

Carolyn Yeager wrote:Wiesel's sisters are not such a problem as you make out. So he has two sisters. They are barely mentioned in Night ... barely. Maybe they are not in Un di Velt ... or again, maybe only barely, so they could have been added.


I was mistaken about Elie's sisters not mentioned by name in Night. On page 2: "There were four of us children: Hilda, the oldest; then Bea; I was the third, and the only son; the baby of the family was Tzipora.
My parents ran a shop. Hilda and Bea helped them with the work. As for me my place was at school."

On the fifth page, the sentence, speaking of the year 1943: "My mother began to think that it was high time to find a suitable young man for Hilda."

These, of course, could be easily added in the rewriting. I would sure like to see the beginning pages of Un di Velt translated.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:42 am)

nathan wrote:Oh, dear. Ou sont les Laurentz Dahl d’antan? Eric Hunt's words suggested, though perhaps he did not mean to suggest, that there has somewhere been found a document which connected a Lazar Wiesel with both the number A7713 and the birth year 1928. I suggested that no such document has been found. Now I am told that I am confused - because no such document has been found. In the interests of accuracy I was raising a small point on the side of the imposter theory, even though on balance I find the whole notion absurd. The most absurd theory usually has something going for it.

Faurisson’s point would fail only if it turns out that the original Yiddish document contained a circumstantial mention of gas chambers. I too think that is “unlikely”, but we shall not know until we see a trustworthy translation.


Dear Nathan,

It's true you clarified the situation about the birthdates, which is good because many people are not as clear about the documents as they should be. And I don't mean Eric; he knows what they are. But when any party makes a brief or passing description of them, it can leave a wrong impression in some people's minds. It's necessary to be very precise when referring to them. They are confusing in themselves and this is still a very confusing picture... as I know you appreciate.

If interested parties get the impression it's too murky to ever know anything for sure, they will lose interest. I don't want the interest to flag, and I think it can be figured out. The more minds working on it, the better.
In Jewish history there are no coincidences ... Elie Wiesel
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby nathan » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:07 am)

Let me summarise what I think is the documentary case against Wiesel. My understanding is this:-


We know of one wartime document, a transport list, which (independently) says that prisoner A7713 was born in 1913. We know of no document which says that A7713 was born in 1928.

There is a document, the same transport list, which says that prisoner A7712 was named Abram and was transferred to Buchenwald at the same time as A7713.There is no document which says that A7712 was named Shlomo.

We do have a document which says that Abram died in Buchenwald. We have no document which says that Schlomo died in Buchenwald or was ever present there.

A Lazar Wiesel born in Sighet in 1928 did sign an American Fragebogen in Buchenwald, filled out by military clerk. But the day and month of birth differ from that of our Elie.

So we have no document proving that Elie pere et fils were entitled to their Auschwitz numbers, but we do have documentary evidence that these really belonged to a 31-year old Lazar and and a 45-year old Abram. This is enough to raise awkward questions. It is not enough to sustain a story of elaborate imposture and plagiarism. To achieve that one would have to flesh out a plausible scenario.

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:09 am)

@ Carolyn Yeager:
for a recently (1 month previous) deceased inmate's Buchenwald ID#123165 on the questionaire (ID numbers were not normally repeated so this brings up a red flag).

If you mean by "ID number" the number a prisoner was given on intake, you are wrong: Buchenwald used to give numbers of deceased or released prisoners to new arrivals. Numbers were often "recycled" several times. AFAIK only Auschwitz issued prisoner numbers only once, with a few exceptions in its beginning.
If you mean something other by "ID number," please forget my remark above.

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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:47 pm)

nathan wrote:Let me summarise what I think is the documentary case against Wiesel. My understanding is this:-


We know of one wartime document, a transport list, which (independently) says that prisoner A7713 was born in 1913. We know of no document which says that A7713 was born in 1928.

There is a document, the same transport list, which says that prisoner A7712 was named Abram and was transferred to Buchenwald at the same time as A7713.There is no document which says that A7712 was named Shlomo.

We do have a document which says that Abram died in Buchenwald. We have no document which says that Schlomo died in Buchenwald or was ever present there.

A Lazar Wiesel born in Sighet in 1928 did sign an American Fragebogen in Buchenwald, filled out by military clerk. But the day and month of birth differ from that of our Elie.



So we have no document proving that Elie pere et fils were entitled to their Auschwitz numbers, but we do have documentary evidence that these really belonged to a 31-year old Lazar and and a 45-year old Abram. This is enough to raise awkward questions. It is not enough to sustain a story of elaborate imposture and plagiarism. To achieve that one would have to flesh out a plausible scenario.


That's exactly right. For some, what we have is enough, but it doesn't explain many things ... which we want to explain. Getting into the books is really interesting, revealing many descrepancies and also hints and leads that no one has ever paid attention to.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:22 pm)

joachim neander wrote:@ Carolyn Yeager:
for a recently (1 month previous) deceased inmate's Buchenwald ID#123165 on the questionaire (ID numbers were not normally repeated so this brings up a red flag).

If you mean by "ID number" the number a prisoner was given on intake, you are wrong: Buchenwald used to give numbers of deceased or released prisoners to new arrivals. Numbers were often "recycled" several times. AFAIK only Auschwitz issued prisoner numbers only once, with a few exceptions in its beginning.
If you mean something other by "ID number," please forget my remark above.


Joachim,

I am studying this matter. Please give some instances when this recycling of ID "intake" numbers occured, and any other documentation for this you have. Thank you.
In Jewish history there are no coincidences ... Elie Wiesel
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:33 pm)

joachim neander wrote: I would not wish the fate of a Jew at Auschwitz for even my worst enemy!


I would not wish the fate of a Wehrmacht soldier in the hands of Communist Jewish partisans (fighting illegally, mind you) on the Eastern Front or in France for even my worst enemy!
In Jewish history there are no coincidences ... Elie Wiesel
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:02 pm)

Carolyn Yeager wrote:
joachim neander wrote:@ Carolyn Yeager:
for a recently (1 month previous) deceased inmate's Buchenwald ID#123165 on the questionaire (ID numbers were not normally repeated so this brings up a red flag).

If you mean by "ID number" the number a prisoner was given on intake, you are wrong: Buchenwald used to give numbers of deceased or released prisoners to new arrivals. Numbers were often "recycled" several times. AFAIK only Auschwitz issued prisoner numbers only once, with a few exceptions in its beginning.
If you mean something other by "ID number," please forget my remark above.


Joachim,

I am studying this matter. Please give some instances when this recycling of ID "intake" numbers occured, and any other documentation for this you have. Thank you.


I'm not sure where that idea came from. I thought it was Mattogno, but looking back at his essay of May 1st at http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2010/05/th ... /#more-902, he does not say that.

Just how common was it to re-use numbers so soon after someone's death? But a more imporatant question is why would Lázár Wiesel be given an "intake number" after March 8, 1945 IF he is Elie Wiesel who says he arrived with the transport on Jan. 26, 1945? Another problem is that the date of Lázár Wiesel's arrest (April 16th, 1944) is much earlier than the deportation date Elie Wiesel gives in Night. That and other questions about Lázár Wiesel will be explored further in due time.

Thanks for the input.
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Re: The Original Yiddish Version of Elie Wiesel's "Night"

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 9 months ago (Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:08 pm)

@ C. Yeager:
That Buchenwald "recycled" inmate numbers can be seen from the prisoners' file cards and is mentioned in every standard scholarly book on Buchenwald. Those file cards that survived are in the Buchenwald Memorial museum or in the Thurigian State Archives, copies should be at the USHMM archives.

CC prisoner files were ordered according to 2 principles: by name, and by number. File cards from the latter system show that, in many cases, a number was given consecutively to several prisoners. Somewhere I must have a copy of such a file card, but I cannot find it now. I also do not know how quickly the number of a dead or released prisoner was given to a new intake.


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