How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during WWII?

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How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during WWII?

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:49 pm)

I asked Hans in another thread and received no reply. Neander also managed to skip over committing to a figure.

Before this thread can go forward, I'd like the Exaggerationists to commit to a figure first.
If they can attempt to refute the numbers claimed by Revisionists, then they must be able to come up with a figure of their own since it's crucial to the debate.
After a number is claimed, I'd like to see how this number was generated.

Keep in mind, this topic has nothing to do with mass murder claims since death doesn't necessarily mean murder, only the amount of cremations performed and the resulting whereabouts of the remains.

Thank you.
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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hans » 8 years 10 months ago (Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:42 am)

About one million people perished in Auschwitz. Assuming that all corpses were incinerated it means that about one million cremations occurred in Auschwitz. This figure includes cremations both in the crematory as well as in the open on pyres.

The cremation rate of the muffles can be estimated with 4 corpses per hour in a first approximation. Taken into account the down-times of the ovens (from Mattogno, The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau) this makes a theoretical cremation capacity for 1943 - 1945 of 1,466,960. In addition, there was the crematory in Auschwitz main camp for the previous years, but I don't have a figure for it's operation time right now.

So in principle the crematoria ovens could have handled the amount of corpses. However, due to peaks and lows in the number of deaths the working load of the ovens was not even. In particular in summer/autumn 1942 and in summer 1944, open air pyres had to be used to handle the amount of accumulated corpses.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Mojo » 8 years 10 months ago (Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:36 am)

Hans,

Why is it in a modern cremation muffle it takes well over an hour to burn a single corpse? Today's technology uses an afterburner making it a much more efficient process than what the Germans had available. Please show me some factual evidence that 4 bodies can be consumed in one hour. Evidence, not testimony please. Evidence of open air pyres would be nice to see too.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby joachim neander » 8 years 10 months ago (Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:16 pm)

@ Mojo:
Please keep in mind that "modern," civilian cremation of bodies differs significantly from that which was used at the camps (not only Auschwitz).

Regulations for civilian cremation (the correct term is "incineration") demands that only one corpse is incinerated at a time, that the ash is collected after cooling down of the oven and put into an urn. For the next body to cremate, the oven must be heated again. All this did not happen in the camps. Continuous cremation was the rule there.

They further demand that the incineration process is complete, i.e. that only a small amount of mineral ash in powder form remains. This takes quite a lot of time, but was not demanded in the camps. Bones needed not to be burnt to ashes.

In the 1990s, I visited the site of the crematorium of former CC Ellrich-Juliushütte, a sub-camp of Mittelbau, several times. The crematorium had been dismantled immediately after the war, the building destroyed later, because the former German-German border ran through it. The ashes had been dumped onto a slope. I scratched the mound with my geologist's hammer - the earth was still full of bone fragments.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hannover » 8 years 10 months ago (Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:24 pm)

Hans and Joachim Neander are utterly refuted, but march on as if nothing had happened. Notice Neander even claims
I scratched the mound with my geologist's hammer - the earth was still full of bone fragments.
Notice we see no such "bone fragments" from Neander.

- Hannover

Hannover wrote:Sorry Hans and Joachim Neander, you're again dealing in garbage in, garbage out. The entire gassing claim is laughable, and you cannot defend it or demonstrate to us how it worked, yet you absurdly attempt to defend the impossible cremations claim as advanced by the 'holocaust' Industry while not being able to prove your mythical 'gas chambers', the alleged murder weapon.
Here are some quotes from a few of my previous posts, which you ignore.
You support the likes of Henryk Tauber:
Henryk Tauber, an alleged crematorium worker is considered vital to the standard 'holocaust' story. Here are a few of his assertions:

- Tauber testified to the Soviet Commission (Nuremberg document USSR-008) of 1945 that 10,000-12,000 per day were cremated in the ovens of Auschwitz-Birkenau. An utter impossibility given the crematoria at Auschwitz/Birkenau.

- Tauber stated that a body could be cremated in 7-9 minutes, an impossibility today, let alone with 1940s technology.

- Tauber testified to skimming off boiling human fat from open air cremations. Impossible, the fat would have ignited.

- Tauber testified to reservoirs filled with this human fat that flowed from the burning corpses. (same as above)

- Tauber testified that he inserted & cremated 8 bodies at once, in one oven, in order to signal Allied aircraft with smoke . Physically impossible.

- Tauber stated:
"Ober Capo August explained to us that, according to the calculations and plans for this crematorium, 5 to 7 minutes was allowed to burn one corpse in a muffle." A lie, there were no "calculations and plans" in the records which would have reflected this.

As for SS Prufer,(who was the builder of the typhus abatement ovens at Auschwitz which were heavily used during the well known huge epidemics), you avoid what he really said:
Question: How many corpses would be cremated per hour in a crematorium in Auschwitz?
Answer: In a crematorium that had five ovens and fifteen muffles, one cremated fifteen corpses in an hour.

Also from SS Prufer:
I spoke about the enormous strain on the overused furnaces. I told Chief Engineer Sander: I am worried whether the furnaces can stand the excessive usage. In my presence two cadavers were pushed into one muffle instead of one cadaver. The furnaces could not stand the strain.

Hans, Joachim, you then avoid:
There was a total 52 muffles of Auschwitz, never used simultaneously.

- 38 is the most that were ever online simultaneously.

- The 6 at Auschwitz I were taken out of action as soon as the new ones at Birkenau came online. These were in turn liable to long periods of breakdowns and even idleness.

- If there was a program of mass extermination, the desperate need for cremation capacity is obvious. Why then put six muffles out of action?
- In August 1942, at the main camp, 9000 prisoners died. According to Believer & profiteer John Zimmerman, Auschwitz I would have had a cremation capacity of about 4,680 per month (26 per muffle daily on average, as at Gusen).
So the cremation capacity was about half of what it needed to be during the typhus epidemic.
At the same time, the camp was planned to hold an eventual inmate population of 200,000 (a seven-fold increase from August 1942, at less than 30,000).
Therefore, in August 1942, the very month that 'Auschwitz expert' van Pelt claims the homicidal adaptation of the crematoria was initiated, the Auschwitz Bauleitung authorities should have requested a crematoria construction program which should have produced capacities almost 14 times greater than the 6 muffles of Auschwitz I at the time. In 1943, when the camp population reached about 140,000, the number of muffles was just over 6 times greater than August 1942, because Crematorium IV broke down and was not repaired (mothballed) and Crematorium I at the main camp was converted into an air-raid shelter. There were 38 muffles.

- Why use exactly the same cremation techniques as in normal concentration camps, installing coke-fired ovens, even by the thirties a crude and primitive solution? More efficient gas-fired and electrical crematoria had by this time already been used for years in many countries, including my own. For the purpose the SS should naturally have sought out the most efficient answer they were able to find.

- If the extermination myth was true, the SS must from the start have had some idea of how many victims were to be gassed and burned. It's a simple matter of math, and then naturally founded on estimates made by the constructors, in this case Topf & Söhne. Why then not build the installations required. It doesn't make sense.

- There are no human remains to support the storyline.

and:
The Auschwitz ‘witnesses’ Dov Paisikovic, states that the cremation of one body took about four minutes!
-Léon Poliakov, Auschwitz, René Julliard, Paris 1964, p. 159 ff.

and:
There is a genuine, original document from the Nürnberg trials.
Interesting reading. It stated that 840,000 Russian POW's where killed in Sachenhausen and then the Germans cremated them in 4 portable ovens.
calculation on the numbers:
Experts in the business say it takes at least 1.5 hour to cremate one body today. Then it's 840,000 bodies x 1.5 hour =1,260,000 hours / 24 hours = 52,200 days / 365 days = 143.8 years / 4 ovens = 35.95 years, if the Germans where running it 24 hours per day. And people wonder why there's questions about the so called 'holocau$t'!!
Ref: IMT VII page 586

Now Hans, Joachim, what was that you were saying about 'gas chambers'?

This is too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hannover » 8 years 10 months ago (Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:31 pm)

For a simple demonstration, simply key Hannover Hans into our search function, select and read the resultant posts.

Yes, it is really too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby joachim neander » 8 years 10 months ago (Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:36 pm)

Hannover:
Hans and Joachim Neander are utterly refuted, but march on as if nothing had happened. Notice Neander even claims

I scratched the mound with my geologist's hammer - the earth was still full of bone fragments.

Notice we see no such "bone fragments" from Neander.

If I had known that, fifteen years later, I would be asked to present bone fragments from the former Ellrich-Juliushüüte CC crematory here on CODOH, I of course would have collected and preserved them. At that time, however, I was more interested in gypsum crystals that could be found in the area. Ash (not from the crematorium) on my head!

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Mojo » 8 years 10 months ago (Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:18 pm)

joachim neander wrote:@ Mojo:
Please keep in mind that "modern," civilian cremation of bodies differs significantly from that which was used at the camps (not only Auschwitz).

Regulations for civilian cremation (the correct term is "incineration") demands that only one corpse is incinerated at a time, that the ash is collected after cooling down of the oven and put into an urn. For the next body to cremate, the oven must be heated again. All this did not happen in the camps. Continuous cremation was the rule there.

They further demand that the incineration process is complete, i.e. that only a small amount of mineral ash in powder form remains. This takes quite a lot of time, but was not demanded in the camps. Bones needed not to be burnt to ashes.

In the 1990s, I visited the site of the crematorium of former CC Ellrich-Juliushütte, a sub-camp of Mittelbau, several times. The crematorium had been dismantled immediately after the war, the building destroyed later, because the former German-German border ran through it. The ashes had been dumped onto a slope. I scratched the mound with my geologist's hammer - the earth was still full of bone fragments.


So your Doctorate is in Forensic Anthropology? I assume someone has analyzed these bone frags to make sure that they are not only bone, but human bone? Surely you're not the only person to make this discovery or observation at Ellrich-Juliushütte.

The significant difference between todays methods and those of the Germans during WW2 is that todays method is much more efficient. There are still pieces of bone that do not completely disintegrate in todays method. Although friable they are run through an industrial or commercial type grinder, commonly called a Garbage Disposal in the USA. They don't crush them with sticks on tin plates any more. :roll:

Temperature cycling has nothing to do with the amount of bodies being incinerated at one time in a single muffle. If the muffle is up to operating temperature, it's going to work as intended.


http://www.uscremationequipment.com/ind ... &Itemid=34

NO COOL DOWN REQUIRED BETWEEN CREMATIONS

Virtually every manufacturer of standard size human cremators recommend a 20 to 30 minute cool-down between cremations to prevent overheating and visible emissions (smoke) from the stack. U.S. Cremation Equipment’s “Classic” model with its advanced operating system automatically controls the rate of combustion so that extended cool-down between consecutive cremations is not necessary. Eliminating cool-down results in faster cremation cycles, longer refractory life and can reduce fuel usage by up to 50% on the second and successive cremations of the day.

24 HOUR CONTINUOUS OPERATION

Extra-heavy duty insulation, an improved drafting system along with an operating system that monitors and controls chamber temperatures by continuously adjusting firing rate of the burners and combustion air supply enables the “Classic” to operate around the clock in emergency situations or during periods of peak demand without generating visible emissions or odor.

DESIGNED TO CREMATE OBESE CASES

The Programmable Logic Controller (PLC) automatically controls the firing rate of the cremation burner and combustion air supply to the primary chamber to maintain optimal operating temperature. This prevents an excessive combustion rate in large and obese cases that can lead to overheating, fluid problems and visible emissions. The “Classic” can accommodate cases up to 800 lbs.

CREMATE UP TO SIX BODIES IN A TEN HOUR WORK DAY

Eliminating cool-down along with faster cremation cycles allow for a greater daily throughput. The “Classic” can consistently cremate up to six average size bodies in ten hours and outperforms all other cremators in its price and size class.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Moderator3 » 8 years 10 months ago (Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:04 pm)

Mr. Neander:
Your claim (in an attempt to support the homicidal gassing and resultant cremation allegation) that human bones are easily found at Auschwitz has been challenged, please show us proof of your claim or leave this thread, you know the guidelines. Merely saying that human bones exist, and therefore support the claim, does not mean they really do exist.
One cannot make such claims without backing them up ... unless the claims are false. It's really quite simple.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby joachim neander » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:43 am)

Moderator3 wrote:Mr. Neander:
Your claim (in an attempt to support the homicidal gassing and resultant cremation allegation) that human bones are easily found at Auschwitz has been challenged, please show us proof of your claim or leave this thread, you know the guidelines. Merely saying that human bones exist, and therefore support the claim, does not mean they really do exist.
One cannot make such claims without backing them up ... unless the claims are false. It's really quite simple.

Mr. Moderator, please tell me where I "claimed" "that human bones are easily found at Auschwitz" in this thread?
Thank you in advance.
Sincerely yours
J. Neander.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:27 am)

Hans wrote:About one million people perished in Auschwitz. Assuming that all corpses were incinerated it means that about one million cremations occurred in Auschwitz. This figure includes cremations both in the crematory as well as in the open on pyres.

The cremation rate of the muffles can be estimated with 4 corpses per hour in a first approximation. Taken into account the down-times of the ovens (from Mattogno, The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau) this makes a theoretical cremation capacity for 1943 - 1945 of 1,466,960. In addition, there was the crematory in Auschwitz main camp for the previous years, but I don't have a figure for it's operation time right now.

So in principle the crematoria ovens could have handled the amount of corpses. However, due to peaks and lows in the number of deaths the working load of the ovens was not even. In particular in summer/autumn 1942 and in summer 1944, open air pyres had to be used to handle the amount of accumulated corpses.


How are you making a connection from the alleged capacities to the actual amount of dead?
Even if the ovens were capable of the amounts you claim, that doesn't mean that's the amount that were cremated.

Can you offer some evidence to show me the amounts of dead on these open pyres besides the wide range of numbers provided by "eyewitnesses"?
We've all seen people guess the amount of jelly beans in the jar for a contest. Numbers from 50 to 50,000!
Hardly reliable.
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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:37 am)

joachim neander wrote:@ Mojo:
Please keep in mind that "modern," civilian cremation of bodies differs significantly from that which was used at the camps (not only Auschwitz).

Regulations for civilian cremation (the correct term is "incineration") demands that only one corpse is incinerated at a time, that the ash is collected after cooling down of the oven and put into an urn. For the next body to cremate, the oven must be heated again. All this did not happen in the camps. Continuous cremation was the rule there.


You can't maintain the heat levels necessary to cremate bodies by throwing more on, especially bodies that are being stored underground in cold mortuaries. This is as simple as a pot of boiling water on the stove; If you have a pot of boiling water, and add cold water, the water stops boiling. It takes a while to get the water boiling again since the overall temperature drops down. And that's on a stovetop. If you throw a 60 degree body into a crematory oven, the temp will drop to a point where the bodies can't be used as fuel.

Anyone who can cook spaghetti can debunk the Exaggerationist claims of continuous cremations, which appear to be the basis for their numbers.
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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby The Warden » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:41 am)

joachim neander wrote:Hannover:
Hans and Joachim Neander are utterly refuted, but march on as if nothing had happened. Notice Neander even claims

I scratched the mound with my geologist's hammer - the earth was still full of bone fragments.

Notice we see no such "bone fragments" from Neander.

If I had known that, fifteen years later, I would be asked to present bone fragments from the former Ellrich-Juliushüüte CC crematory here on CODOH, I of course would have collected and preserved them.


And if I was from Mars, I'd be a Martian.
The problem is: NO ONE has these infamous bone fragments, and they should since bone doesn't burn.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Moderator3 » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:15 pm)

joachim neander wrote:
Moderator3 wrote:Mr. Neander:
Your claim (in an attempt to support the homicidal gassing and resultant cremation allegation) that human bones are easily found at Auschwitz has been challenged, please show us proof of your claim or leave this thread, you know the guidelines. Merely saying that human bones exist, and therefore support the claim, does not mean they really do exist.
One cannot make such claims without backing them up ... unless the claims are false. It's really quite simple.

Mr. Moderator, please tell me where I "claimed" "that human bones are easily found at Auschwitz" in this thread?
Thank you in advance.
Sincerely yours
J. Neander.

Mr Neander, you said:
I scratched the mound with my geologist's hammer - the earth was still full of bone fragments.
I would say that simply scratching your hammer and supposedly finding human bones is tantamount to an easy find.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Lohengrin » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:57 pm)

Short reaction to Hans and Neander on this topic:

About the "capacity" of the Auschwitz-ovens:

- Didler Werke, successor of Topf & Sohne, in 1961 summoned Holocaustian William M. Shirer before court, because he wrote in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich about “Millions cremated in the ovens of Topf & Söhne". On the basis of the expert opinion of mechanical engineer Prof. Dr. Trastel, Shirer was forced to correct this (in a footnote placed in the German version only!) for "the size of the ovens in Auschwitz were normal for a modest old-fashioned crematory for small cemeteries and unfit for mass-incineration.” Do you know better, Hans/Neander?

- To end all nonsense about "15 minutes per body", I refer to the research of the British Cremation Society, who recently concluded for present-day ovens: "cremation of 45 kg body weight (regardless of cremation regulations, coffin, etc.) has at least a duration of 1 hour”. Do Hans/Neander knows better again ?

Why do modern cremation ovens nowadays have much less capacity (45 kg/hr) than those of the evil Nazi's in 1943 with old fashioned cokes-ovens (250 kg/hr if we believe Hans/Neander/Van Pelt)? Can you guys explain? If so, you dwarf the specialists of the British Cremation Society, so many thanks in advance! (Caution: the BCS speaks of body weight only, so no evasions, please!)

- Have you guys ever heard of the principle "The more mass, the longer cremation time"?

Four bodies per muffle is TOTAL RUBBISH, because:
1. It's impossible to get more than 2 bodies in the muffle. Auschwitz muffles were 30 cm shorter and the cast-iron doors were even smaller than those of the standard ovens (Buchenwald), because no coffin was used. Also, once a normal body (or 2 emaciated) was shove into the muffle, it was impossible to repeat this procedure because the stretcher simply couldn't be used twice. Cramming more bodies in by hand was not possible because of rigor mortis, the heat out of the open door, etcetera.

2. Cremation time increases even more than the proportional 4 times, because of: less space for hot air in the muffle, less contact-surface per body, clogging of the apertures in the walls between muffles, longer incineration time for emaciated corpses, damaging of the refractory bricks, less reflection/radiation of the refractory bricks etc. All these factors reduce total cremation time exponential!

And oh yeah, Hans said in another thread that corpses "burn by themselves" and only 3,5 kg coke per cremation will do, by "intelligent loading".
Well, worthy Hans, try this:
during your next barbecue, set the charcoal on fire, wait until the first steak is 'burning', reduce charcoal by 90% and let by way of ‘endothermic’ and ’exothermic phase' and not to forget your ‘intelligent loading’ all next stakes burn by itself. I'm sure you will have a barbecue your guests never forget!


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