How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during WWII?

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Ilikerealhistory
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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:14 pm)

Pappy Yokum wrote:Let's see.


Coke was being delivered to the Birkenau crematoria in [March - October] 1943
at an average of around 80.2 metric tons per month. That is 80,200 kilograms. [See Pressac page 224]
After 1943, the Birkenau crematoria ran on wood.
[The Soviets found cord wood stacked like corpses near the ruins of crematoria IV
and near crematoria V in January 1945.]




Was coke used only for cremation, or could it be used for heating buildings and water, or for cooking?

I have heard of bodies being stacked like cord wood, but never heard of cord wood being stacked like bodies. :shock:

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hans » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:10 am)

Lohengrin wrote:Short reaction to Hans and Neander on this topic:

About the "capacity" of the Auschwitz-ovens:

- Didler Werke, successor of Topf & Sohne, in 1961 summoned Holocaustian William M. Shirer before court, because he wrote in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich about “Millions cremated in the ovens of Topf & Söhne". On the basis of the expert opinion of mechanical engineer Prof. Dr. Trastel, Shirer was forced to correct this (in a footnote placed in the German version only!) for "the size of the ovens in Auschwitz were normal for a modest old-fashioned crematory for small cemeteries and unfit for mass-incineration.” Do you know better, Hans/Neander?


Nowhere in Topf & Söhne's history it is indicated that the Didier-Werke (note the spelling!) were it's successor. The successor was "Nagema Topfwerke Erfurt VEB", then "VEB Maschinenfabrik Nikos BelojannisIn", then "VEB EMS" in East Germany. In West Germany the company was recreated and still existed in 1961.

Didier-Werke were one of Topf's competitor, and even though they did design ovens for concentrations camps, they never delivered any to Auschwitz. You will also notice that in the original article by Fields, where this claim is made (with the same wrong spelling!), does neither mention Topf nor Auschwitz in this context.

- To end all nonsense about "15 minutes per body", I refer to the research of the British Cremation Society, who recently concluded for present-day ovens: "cremation of 45 kg body weight (regardless of cremation regulations, coffin, etc.) has at least a duration of 1 hour”. Do Hans/Neander knows better again ?


Then you should take up the argument with Mattogno who has found that

- the Kori ovens in the concentration camps could cremate a single corpse in 50 min

- the oil-fired crematorium in Theresienstadt had a cremation rate of just above 30 min per corpse per oven on one day



Four bodies per muffle is TOTAL RUBBISH, because:
1. It's impossible to get more than 2 bodies in the muffle.


There is plenty of room in the muffle for several corpses. The Kori cadaver incinerator of the same volume as the Topf muffle in the Birkenau oven could take up 450 kg of cadavers, which is equivalent to six male corpses.

Also, once a normal body (or 2 emaciated) was shove into the muffle, it was impossible to repeat this procedure because the stretcher simply couldn't be used twice. Cramming more bodies in by hand was not possible because of rigor mortis, the heat out of the open door, etcetera.


Actually for multiple cremation the corpses were loaded as one batch, see here.

2. Cremation time increases even more than the proportional 4 times, because of: less space for hot air in the muffle, less contact-surface per body, clogging of the apertures in the walls between muffles, longer incineration time for emaciated corpses, damaging of the refractory bricks, less reflection/radiation of the refractory bricks etc. All these factors reduce total cremation time exponential!


The three muffle was designed for multiple cremations in the first place:

"Es enthält 5 Stück Muffelöfen mit je 3 Muffeln für 2 Mann, so daß in einer Stunde 60 Mann eingeäschert werden können." (Erläuterungsbericht of 30 October 1941)

Moreover, there is a note by Topf engineer Sander from September 1942 to the Topfs according to which in the concentration camps, and he is refering in particular to Auschwitz, they were doing "Vollstopfen der einzelnen Muffeln mit mehreren Leichen". This document is important since it shows that multiple cremations were performed in Auschwitz. So the witnesses who have testified about multiple cremations after the war were right - and Revisionists were wrong (not that this would surprise anybody, but anyway). It also indicates that the method of multiple cremations did increase the cremation rates already in the double-muffle ovens. And of course, it also refutes your claim it would even increase the cremation rate.

Even though Revisionists claim the opposite, the Topf engineers confirmed this after war, Sander on 13 March 1946:

"Pruefer then gave me an example that in his presence two-three corpses were being put into each muffle, and even then they did not cope with the load, because there were too many corpses for incineration in the concentration camp."

Prüfer on 19 March 1946:

"With this I gave Sander an example - that in Auschwitz, in my presence, two-three corpses were being pushed into crematoria openings /muffles/ instead of one per opening, and even then the crematorium's ovens did not cope with that load, because there were too many corpses for incineration."

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Blogbuster » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:16 am)

Hans wrote:
Blogbuster wrote:
Hans,
Most people know you are in reality Mike Peters who was part of the forged/faked photos that Sergey Romanov attempted to insert into the ARC website. He even bragged about doing it, and you were his way in.
For you to say that you were "unaware" of any forged document or photo is disingenuous! There are entire threads about this on several forums and blogs..

BB


I'm not Mike Peters and please stop spamming the threads with your false assertion. Thank you!

Just for your information, I was never involved in ARC website or any skirmish around it. And I wouldn't care about that quarrel between you and Sergey Romanov - if it hadn't been so entertaining to follow.



Hello Hans (mike peters)

Research shows that you are in fact Mike Peters http://hateblogwatch.yuku.com/sreply/345/t/THE-FRANKE-GRICKSCH-REPORT.html

You have denied knowing that the earlier images you referenced in this thread were forgeries, you have also denied being part of the Sergey Romanov crowd who knowingly/admittedly planted forged photos on the ARC website.

So how is anyone here supposed to take anything you say seriously?

What credibility can you or your arguments have when you've proven that you yourself are a Hoax?

Why are you here claiming revisionists lie when everything you've said is a lie?


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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hans » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:49 am)

Blogbuster wrote:
Hans wrote:
Blogbuster wrote:
Hans,
Most people know you are in reality Mike Peters who was part of the forged/faked photos that Sergey Romanov attempted to insert into the ARC website. He even bragged about doing it, and you were his way in.
For you to say that you were "unaware" of any forged document or photo is disingenuous! There are entire threads about this on several forums and blogs..

BB


I'm not Mike Peters and please stop spamming the threads with your false assertion. Thank you!

Just for your information, I was never involved in ARC website or any skirmish around it. And I wouldn't care about that quarrel between you and Sergey Romanov - if it hadn't been so entertaining to follow.



Hello Hans (mike peters)

Research shows that you are in fact Mike Peters http://hateblogwatch.yuku.com/sreply/345/t/THE-FRANKE-GRICKSCH-REPORT.html


Ah let's take a look at your so called "research". Your sockpuppet quotes - not really verbatim - from a - by the way, very interesting - thread from 2005:

"This new report has about it a ring of authenticity lacking in the earlier version. No doubt Mr. Hans can use his connections with the ARFCI website (http://www.deathcamps.org/) to obtain further information on its discovery at the Public Record Office."

Sock puppet claims that this was posted by Sergey Romanov, but as everybody can see it was not posted by Sergey Romanov but by "Unregistered(d)". Now, if you follow the discussion there you will see that this poster was David Hebden. Mr. Hebden apparently at the time assumed that I had any connections to the ARC site. I don't know why he assumed this, maybe because I cited some stuff from there (no wonder, since they had very good material), but it was a wrong assumption. Needless to say that I did not obtain any further information on the discovery of that Franke-Gricksch-report, since I didn't have any connections to the ARC site. As you can see it was not me but Sergey Romanov who provided further information from the ARC site. Now, for the sake of argument, let's assume that Mr. Hebden was right and I did have connections to the ARC site. Then still there would be nothing indicating that I am "Mike Peters". I don't even know who that is, but I guess and understand from you its somebody involved in that feud you don't like. So what?

In the meantime sock puppet number 3 has posted in your thread, pointing out that I browsed your little forum and takes this as proof I am "Mike Peters". I've never came across something more illogical then this, I guess. Just in case you miss it, the reason I browsed your forum is because you just linked to it here.

Please stop with your verbal slander, it is not contributing anything to the issue we are discussing.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Blogbuster » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:23 am)

Hans (Mike)

Exposing the truth is at the very heart of the debate. In this particular case you have been exposed for your lies. You can attempt to dismiss it away if you wish but according to your logic everything that involves you is a "coincidence" yet you make arguments here on CODOH on a litany of topics and we're supposed to take what you say at face value?

Doubtful Mr. Peters...
If you want honest debate, then begin with a little honesty.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Balsamo » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:53 pm)

Moderator;

could you do something concerning this blogbuster?

Back to the subject
Have i read right that the crematoria were functionning on WOOD after 1943?

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Blogbuster » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:27 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Moderator;

could you do something concerning this blogbuster?

Back to the subject
Have i read right that the crematoria were functionning on WOOD after 1943?



Balsamo, here is the original post that began this thread:
I asked Hans in another thread and received no reply. Neander also managed to skip over committing to a figure.

Before this thread can go forward, I'd like the Exaggerationists to commit to a figure first.
If they can attempt to refute the numbers claimed by Revisionists, then they must be able to come up with a figure of their own since it's crucial to the debate.
After a number is claimed, I'd like to see how this number was generated.

Keep in mind, this topic has nothing to do with mass murder claims since death doesn't necessarily mean murder, only the amount of cremations performed and the resulting whereabouts of the remains.

Thank you.


I believe since Hans (Mike Peters) was called out to present "facts' or "claims" then any credibility issues ought to be brought to bear on whether any statements provided by said person can in fact be trusted.

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Hans » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:17 pm)

Blogbuster wrote:
I believe since Hans (Mike Peters) was called out to present "facts' or "claims" then any credibility issues ought to be brought to bear on whether any statements provided by said person can in fact be trusted.



Let aside that this is ad hominem, the only credibility issue we have here is with you. I am not Mike Peters, you have shown not a shred evidence that I'm Mike Peters and you lie about me being Mike Peters.

Not that it would be relevant at all if I'm Mike Peters. Like myself, most people here probably don't even know who that is. But your claim is just false.

At the top of this, you are also repeatedly violating the forum rules according to which "You will address the poster only by the name that he/she uses at the Forum".

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Blogbuster » 9 years 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:27 pm)

Fair point about the forum rules "Hans" I'll be sure to address you by the name of your choice.

If the Mike Peters revelation is of such little consequence then why even bother with the refutation ?

I believe your posts here in this thread to fake documents is very relevant to your activity elsewhere under other guise.
It impacts credibility and dilutes you argument.

But I take your point. You prefer not to travel that road here on this forum and will respect your wishes.
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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby The Warden » 9 years 3 weeks ago (Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:21 am)

Hans wrote:There is plenty of room in the muffle for several corpses. The Kori cadaver incinerator of the same volume as the Topf muffle in the Birkenau oven could take up 450 kg of cadavers, which is equivalent to six male corpses.


But the cremation time would be severely slowed to a crawl compared to the times you're citing.
Again, it takes longer to cook a 20 lb. turkey than a 5 lb. turkey.

Hans wrote:Actually for multiple cremation the corpses were loaded as one batch, see here.


:roll:

Funny how they put a child just about to enter the muffle into the cartoon/painting to draw emotion from the viewer.
And the flames are about 6 inches from the faces of the people putting the bodies into the muffle!

Thanks for the laugh.

Hans wrote:
2. Cremation time increases even more than the proportional 4 times, because of: less space for hot air in the muffle, less contact-surface per body, clogging of the apertures in the walls between muffles, longer incineration time for emaciated corpses, damaging of the refractory bricks, less reflection/radiation of the refractory bricks etc. All these factors reduce total cremation time exponential!


The three muffle was designed for multiple cremations in the first place:

"Es enthält 5 Stück Muffelöfen mit je 3 Muffeln für 2 Mann, so daß in einer Stunde 60 Mann eingeäschert werden können." (Erläuterungsbericht of 30 October 1941)

Moreover, there is a note by Topf engineer Sander from September 1942 to the Topfs according to which in the concentration camps, and he is refering in particular to Auschwitz, they were doing "Vollstopfen der einzelnen Muffeln mit mehreren Leichen". This document is important since it shows that multiple cremations were performed in Auschwitz. So the witnesses who have testified about multiple cremations after the war were right - and Revisionists were wrong (not that this would surprise anybody, but anyway). It also indicates that the method of multiple cremations did increase the cremation rates already in the double-muffle ovens. And of course, it also refutes your claim it would even increase the cremation rate.

Even though Revisionists claim the opposite, the Topf engineers confirmed this after war, Sander on 13 March 1946:

"Pruefer then gave me an example that in his presence two-three corpses were being put into each muffle, and even then they did not cope with the load, because there were too many corpses for incineration in the concentration camp."

Prüfer on 19 March 1946:

"With this I gave Sander an example - that in Auschwitz, in my presence, two-three corpses were being pushed into crematoria openings /muffles/ instead of one per opening, and even then the crematorium's ovens did not cope with that load, because there were too many corpses for incineration."


Hans, you're all over the place.
In one post, you're saying the morgue capacities being high show the cremation capacities were higher, but then saying if the morgue capacities were low, then the bodies prove some sort of mass murder. Then, you say how the amount you claimed is possible because of multiple cremations, but won't acknowledge that cremation times are longer for more bodies placed in the muffles. Not to mention, the increased down times to clear the grates and ash, plus the down times from the increased heat generated by "multiple" bodies.

More bodies, more down time.

All in all, cremations still don't prove mass murder.

One question I have as to the term "multiple cremations" in the context of oven design:
Is it possible the memos and statements used meant that each oven was capable of multiple cremations, meaning 3 muffles, not multiple in the sense of multiple bodies in each muffle?
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: How many cremations occured in Auschwitz I & II during W

Postby Moderator3 » 9 years 3 weeks ago (Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:49 pm)

1. Hans has every right to post as 'Hans' regardless of names that he may use at other sites. We are not interested about such matters unless he is posting here under different names.
2. This thread has reached it's usefulness and is locked. This is what happens when distractions are used and ad hominem begins to dominate.


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