Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

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Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 2 months ago (Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:46 pm)

I remember growing up hearing a story how in delicatessens in Tel Aviv, you could see people with Auschwitz tattoos. But wasn't a sizeable percentage of the Auschwitz labor force Polish Christian? Certainly they would have had tattoos too. Has anyone, like Joachim Neander, ever seen or heard of non-Jews in post-war Poland having Auschwitz tattoos? It's just I've never heard of anyone discussing this.

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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 2 months ago (Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:00 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:... But wasn't a sizeable percentage of the Auschwitz labor force Polish Christian? Certainly they would have had tattoos too. Has anyone, like Joachim Neander, ever seen or heard of non-Jews in post-war Poland having Auschwitz tattoos? It's just I've never heard of anyone discussing this.



(Although this topic is about Polish Christians, I would like to add that there were also British Military personal in the camp, or at least there were claims of such things. Maybe the question should be; "Were jews the only ones tattooed?" or "Why weren't others in the camp tattooed?")


Personally I do not believe a single story of people, especially jews, being deliberately tattooed by the Germans, for identification purposes, at any of the camps. There may have been tattooing done by the inmates like what someone would witness in a modern prison.

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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 2 months ago (Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:21 pm)

Personally I do not believe a single story of people, especially jews, being deliberately tattooed by the Germans, for identification purposes, at any of the camps.


Well I don't know if I believe that, but I can say that the film Nazi Concentration Camps, shown at the Nuremberg Trial on 11/29/1945 and made by people secretly in the OSS, states at minute 37:
Nationalities and prison numbers are tattooed on the stomaches of the inmates.
Meanwhile footage is shown of a dead man's jacket and shirt being lifted up revealing a 6 digit? number around 9 inches long and 4 inches high, in freehand style.

So if the Nuremberg judges were watching an official film that included an OSS fake tattooing allegation, then I don't know what to believe about tattoos.

Tattoo number on the dead man is 73490... or 13490...by the way.

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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 2 months ago (Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:12 pm)

Ilikerealhistory wrote:
Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:... But wasn't a sizeable percentage of the Auschwitz labor force Polish Christian? Certainly they would have had tattoos too. Has anyone, like Joachim Neander, ever seen or heard of non-Jews in post-war Poland having Auschwitz tattoos? It's just I've never heard of anyone discussing this.



(Although this topic is about Polish Christians, I would like to add that there were also British Military personal in the camp, or at least there were claims of such things. Maybe the question should be; "Were jews the only ones tattooed?" or "Why weren't others in the camp tattooed?")


Personally I do not believe a single story of people, especially jews, being deliberately tattooed by the Germans, for identification purposes, at any of the camps. There may have been tattooing done by the inmates like what someone would witness in a modern prison.


British POWs were held in their own section of Monowitz but they were under the command of the Wehrmacht, not the SS. They were not tattooed. Tattooing numbers on prisoners was something that was thought to be helpful for keeping track of the inmates at this large camp complex. The exact reason(s) I don't know, but most revisionists point to evidence that it was so. Of course, this evidence could possibly be shown to be inconclusive. Instead of taking on a position of disbelief, or asking questions you hope someone can answer, why not do some research and see what you come up with?

No other camp decided to tattoo it's prisoners. That may be one reason to question it at Auschwitz. I, too, would like to hear from non-Jews about their tattoos. They had to have them. Certainly J. Neander ought to know about Poles with tattoos; he lives there with them.
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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 9 years 2 months ago (Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:44 pm)

Carolyn Yeager wrote:
... Instead of taking on a position of disbelief, or asking questions you hope someone can answer, why not do some research and see what you come up with?


I would like to do that, but there are some obstacles in my way.

1) I don't want to rely on the History Books written by people who blindly accept the Holocaust(R). There seems to be an abundance of these books.

2) I do not know how to search the national archives, or any other "legitimate" information source.

3) There were some older books in the public library that were written before the 1970's and the commercialization of the Holocaust, but the library were I read these books 30+ years ago has changed and they are no longer on the shelf. The books have gone into Orwell's memory hole.

4) I remember seeing bits and pieces of information on the Holocaust on TV that I could use, but I do not know how or where to search for these in either video or written transcript form.

5) Then there is the problem of people putting false information into the achieves and also people stealing from the archives.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource. ... 012682642&

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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 2 months ago (Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:42 pm)

Ilikerealhistory wrote:
Carolyn Yeager wrote:
... Instead of taking on a position of disbelief, or asking questions you hope someone can answer, why not do some research and see what you come up with?


I would like to do that, but there are some obstacles in my way.

1) I don't want to rely on the History Books written by people who blindly accept the Holocaust(R). There seems to be an abundance of these books.

2) I do not know how to search the national archives, or any other "legitimate" information source.

3) There were some older books in the public library that were written before the 1970's and the commercialization of the Holocaust, but the library were I read these books 30+ years ago has changed and they are no longer on the shelf. The books have gone into Orwell's memory hole.

4) I remember seeing bits and pieces of information on the Holocaust on TV that I could use, but I do not know how or where to search for these in either video or written transcript form.

5) Then there is the problem of people putting false information into the achieves and also people stealing from the archives.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource. ... 012682642&


I understand. You can't expect to find everything you want. Searching archives is almost impossible unless you have some training in it, are willing to travel, and most archives don't even let you in. Trying to use the online "archives" of the Auschwitz-Birkenau or USHMM web sites, that they say are available to the public, is an experience in mostly coming up with "sorry, an error occurred while accessing this page" ... and similar blocks. But a lot can be gained by simply entering search words into search engines like Google and Yahoo and looking through the offerings that come up. Sometimes something very helpful is found, and you can even get an archive page that way that you couldn't reach through the direct route. It's mostly a case of really wanting to know something, so much that you eventually find your way to it. What is it that you really want to know?
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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Balsamo » 9 years 2 months ago (Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:47 am)

Ilikerealhistory wrote:
Carolyn Yeager wrote:
... Instead of taking on a position of disbelief, or asking questions you hope someone can answer, why not do some research and see what you come up with?


I would like to do that, but there are some obstacles in my way.

1) I don't want to rely on the History Books written by people who blindly accept the Holocaust(R). There seems to be an abundance of these books.

2) I do not know how to search the national archives, or any other "legitimate" information source.

3) There were some older books in the public library that were written before the 1970's and the commercialization of the Holocaust, but the library were I read these books 30+ years ago has changed and they are no longer on the shelf. The books have gone into Orwell's memory hole.

4) I remember seeing bits and pieces of information on the Holocaust on TV that I could use, but I do not know how or where to search for these in either video or written transcript form.

5) Then there is the problem of people putting false information into the achieves and also people stealing from the archives.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource. ... 012682642&



Just some quick answers:

1. Well, you should. At least to know what you are fignting against.
2. That is what historians are trained for and do for a living. It is not that hard, just take some time and it is indeed dusty.
3. Try to find another public library or search the internet.
4. Next time you things on TV, take notes...you know, who talked about what on which program....THAT should help for further researches...
5. I would say that havind read all the books, searching all archives by yourself, watching and taking names of all TV programs would more than temper your 5th problem...

but tell me, then; on what exactly is your opinions based on ?

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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:44 am)

C. Yeager said:
British POWs were held in their own section of Monowitz but they were under the command of the Wehrmacht, not the SS. They were not tattooed. Tattooing numbers on prisoners was something that was thought to be helpful for keeping track of the inmates at this large camp complex. The exact reason(s) I don't know, but most revisionists point to evidence that it was so. Of course, this evidence could possibly be shown to be inconclusive. ... No other camp decided to tattoo it's prisoners. That may be one reason to question it at Auschwitz. I, too, would like to hear from non-Jews about their tattoos. They had to have them. Certainly J. Neander ought to know about Poles with tattoos; he lives there with them.


Thank you, Miss Yeager, for trusting me. You are right: no other camp tattooed prisoners, only Auschwitz. And tattooing - this should always be kept in mind - concerned only registered prisoners. The reason for tattooing was the high prisoner mortality rate, sometimes reaching several hundred per day, especially when, in the autumn of 1941, thousands of emaciated Soviet POWs were committed to Auschwitz. The clothing of the dead was removed before disposing of the body (to be used again), and after that there was no way to identify the body. So in late autumn of 1941, camp authorities, acting on their own initiative, began to mark the Soviet POWs with a metal needle stamp, holding interchangeable numbers that were punched on the prisoner's left upper chest. Into the wounds, ink was rubbed. In March 1942, this method was also used in the camp hospital to mark prisoners whose death seemed imminent.

The use of the metal tattooing stamp, however, improved impractical. A certain prisoner functionary is said to have proposed the use of an electrically operated tattooing needle, as used by civilian tattooers. It worked quickly and without causing much pain. The numbers were, as a rule, tattooed on the left forearm. The first to be tattooed this way were Jews (they had the highest death rates), beginning in the spring of 1942. A year later, by order of the camp authorities, all prisoners - with some exceptions, see later - had to be tattooed, new arrivals as well as those who had previously been registered. The tattoos on the left forearm made it also easier for the German police to detect fugitive prisoners.

As I already mentioned, there were exceptions from tattooing: "Aryan," i.e. non-Jewish and non-Gypsy, prisoners with Reich citizenship, "reeducation prisoners" (Polish or German workers, committed to Auschwitz for a certain limited time - 4 to 12 weeks - for minor infractions at work), or the (non-Jewish) citizens of Warsaw sent to Auschwitz after the suppression of the 1944 uprising. No prisoner number - and therefore also no tattoo - received those from the ca. 1.5 million who entered the gates of Auschwitz, but were not among the 400,000 taken in as prisoners.

I have personally seen tattooed prisoner numbers, in all cases on the left forearm, of a non-Jewish Polish survivor (he is still alive, professor emeritus from Katowice University), a non-Jewish Belgian with Polish ancestry (he died about a decade ago), and a German Sinto (Gypsy), who also recently died. I admit frankly that the tattooing question never was of major interest for me, so I did not search for survivors' tattoos. On the other hand, though most of the Polish Auschwitz survivors returned to Poland after the war, they always were a tiny minority among a people of 38 million. So meeting someone by chance has had a very low probability.

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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:52 am)

joachim neander wrote:Thank you, Miss Yeager, for trusting me. You are right: no other camp tattooed prisoners, only Auschwitz. And tattooing - this should always be kept in mind - concerned only registered prisoners. The reason for tattooing was the high prisoner mortality rate, sometimes reaching several hundred per day, especially when, in the autumn of 1941, thousands of emaciated Soviet POWs were committed to Auschwitz. The clothing of the dead was removed before disposing of the body (to be used again), and after that there was no way to identify the body. So in late autumn of 1941, camp authorities, acting on their own initiative, began to mark the Soviet POWs with a metal needle stamp, holding interchangeable numbers that were punched on the prisoner's left upper chest. Into the wounds, ink was rubbed. In March 1942, this method was also used in the camp hospital to mark prisoners whose death seemed imminent.

The use of the metal tattooing stamp, however, improved impractical. A certain prisoner functionary is said to have proposed the use of an electrically operated tattooing needle, as used by civilian tattooers. It worked quickly and without causing much pain. The numbers were, as a rule, tattooed on the left forearm. The first to be tattooed this way were Jews (they had the highest death rates), beginning in the spring of 1942. A year later, by order of the camp authorities, all prisoners - with some exceptions, see later - had to be tattooed, new arrivals as well as those who had previously been registered. The tattoos on the left forearm made it also easier for the German police to detect fugitive prisoners.

As I already mentioned, there were exceptions from tattooing: "Aryan," i.e. non-Jewish and non-Gypsy, prisoners with Reich citizenship, "reeducation prisoners" (Polish or German workers, committed to Auschwitz for a certain limited time - 4 to 12 weeks - for minor infractions at work), or the (non-Jewish) citizens of Warsaw sent to Auschwitz after the suppression of the 1944 uprising. No prisoner number - and therefore also no tattoo - received those from the ca. 1.5 million who entered the gates of Auschwitz, but were not among the 400,000 taken in as prisoners.

I have personally seen tattooed prisoner numbers, in all cases on the left forearm, of a non-Jewish Polish survivor (he is still alive, professor emeritus from Katowice University), a non-Jewish Belgian with Polish ancestry (he died about a decade ago), and a German Sinto (Gypsy), who also recently died. I admit frankly that the tattooing question never was of major interest for me, so I did not search for survivors' tattoos. On the other hand, though most of the Polish Auschwitz survivors returned to Poland after the war, they always were a tiny minority among a people of 38 million. So meeting someone by chance has had a very low probability.


Apart from the last paragraph, this is picked up entirely from USHMM's page on Auschwitz tattoos. You could have just given a link. And how do we know it is accurate? There are no sources given for where this information was obtained. The USHMM sets itself up as the unquestioned authority on all matters "Holocaust" and doesn't need to prove it's pronouncements.

One sentence stands out, however: "And tattooing - this should always be kept in mind - concerned only registered prisoners." Please, then, answer this: Elie Wiesel received a tattoo, he says - also his father - yet there is no record of either being registered at Auschwitz. Now I will ask you a favor. I have written to the A-B Archive Dept -- to the head and the assistant head archivists -- asking to be advised of what records they have on these two men. No answer. I have also called by phone, to no avail - I couldn't get through. You, Mr. Neander, are an experienced hand at looking at CC records, and you are known there. Would you please contact that department and get the information I desire. Shlomo and Eliezer Wiesel, father and son. I would like a yes or no as to whether the museum has anything. If they do not, they should say so, i.e. "No, we have no records for those persons." This is very simple.

In your last paragraph, you give your personal experience of seeing the tattoos on the left forearm. Please tell us if they were on the outside or inside of the left forearm. Thank you.
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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 9 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:03 pm)

Thanks Joachim Neander.

But the people you saw who had tattoos: weren't they in the category you said were not tattooed? Or I guess they were "Aryan" without Reich Citizenship? I don't really understand what Reich citizenship was.

Also, when they started using a tattoo gun, did they use a stencil? or just freehand the numbers, based on the ones you saw.

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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:13 pm)

@ CCS:
1) The Polish professor never had Reich citizenship, the Belgian survivor neither, and the Sinto had Reich citizenship, but was not "Aryan."
Reich citizenship was quite a complicated matter. I published an article about it (in German) some time ago in theologie.geschichte, a peer-reviewed free on-line journal edited at the University of the Saar, Saarbrücken. Germans of the Altreich (in the boundaries as of December 31, 1937), Austria, the Sudeten and the Memel Lands had, as a rule, Reich citizenship. It could be obtained by ethnic Germans in parts of neighboring countries that were annexed to the Reich or that were under German occupation.

2) AFAIK tattooing was made free-hand.

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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:08 pm)

Carolyn Yeager wrote:Apart from the last paragraph, this is picked up entirely from USHMM's page on Auschwitz tattoos. You could have just given a link. And how do we know it is accurate? There are no sources given for where this information was obtained. The USHMM sets itself up as the unquestioned authority on all matters "Holocaust" and doesn't need to prove it's pronouncements.
One sentence stands out, however: "And tattooing - this should always be kept in mind - concerned only registered prisoners." Please, then, answer this: Elie Wiesel received a tattoo, he says - also his father - yet there is no record of either being registered at Auschwitz. Now I will ask you a favor. I have written to the A-B Archive Dept -- to the head and the assistant head archivists -- asking to be advised of what records they have on these two men. No answer. I have also called by phone, to no avail - I couldn't get through. You, Mr. Neander, are an experienced hand at looking at CC records, and you are known there. Would you please contact that department and get the information I desire. Shlomo and Eliezer Wiesel, father and son. I would like a yes or no as to whether the museum has anything. If they do not, they should say so, i.e. "No, we have no records for those persons." This is very simple.
In your last paragraph, you give your personal experience of seeing the tattoos on the left forearm. Please tell us if they were on the outside or inside of the left forearm. Thank you.

Dear Miss Yeager - as far as I know CODOH, the moderators prefer text with annotations in a post instead of giving just a link. But I appreciate your checking at the USHMM Web site. There is a lot of useful information on it. I have my information from Auschwitz, from which the USHMM most probably has got its, too.

You ask for "sources." Well, as so often in history, the main sources are the reports of those who participated in the event: those who were tattooed or who did the tattooing (it was made exclusively by prisoners, not SS). No "Tattooing decree" or something similar was issued by some camp or higher authority. As so often in wartime, decisions were made on the spot, and please do not forget that German military, as well as the SS, had the "Auftragstaktik" doctrine: the officer only gets the order what to achieve, it is to his discretion how he achieves this goal and which means he chooses for this purpose.

You ask about Auschwitz camp records of Wiesel father and son. Please do not forget that the Auschwitz museum has files of not more than about ten per cent of all registered prisoners. The original Auschwitz prisoner files were destroyed at the end of the war, and what Auschwitz has today is a reconstruction made from documents in which "Auschwitz" is mentioned, obtained from places around whole Europe, Israel and the U.S. If both Wiesels e.g. appear on an extant Buchenwald list of intakes from Auschwitz, they will have a file card at the Auschwitz archives, too, with the same information. But IIUYC you're looking for a document issued by Auschwitz before the Wiesels left this camp. Maybe there is something, but the odds are 1:10. But please do not forget: absence of proof is never proof of absence.

You complain that you asked Auschwitz and did not get an answer. Please do not overinterpret this, e.g. as "bad will." You are not the only person who made this experience. There are only two people employed at the prisoner files department of the archives. They get hundreds of requests every week. In addition to their routine archival work, they simply do not have the time to answer everybody. Compared to U.S. standards, e.g. the USHMM, the Auschwitz archives are very primitive and hopelessly understaffed. You cannot compare the situation here in Poland with that in the U.S. I could call them, but that would not help much. I would have to dig in the files myself. And to travel there, which is not so easy for me. But I already noticed the case for my next visit, probably in October.

You asked where I saw the tattoos: on the inner side of the forearm.
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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:42 am)

joachim neander wrote:Dear Miss Yeager - as far as I know CODOH, the moderators prefer text with annotations in a post instead of giving just a link.

I have never heard of that and it isn't in the guidelines. Moderators usually prefer links to pasting long passages as a reply. I suspect you did that because you wanted us to think it came from your own vast store of knowledge. You seldom say where your information comes from, as if you yourself are the authoritative source.

joachim neander wrote:But I appreciate your checking at the USHMM Web site. There is a lot of useful information on it. I have my information from Auschwitz, from which the USHMM most probably has got its, too.

If the USHMM gets it's official information from A-B, which you say is a tiny, understaffed place with very poor records to work with -- that doesn't say much for the credibility of the information. And, indeed, in my experience, the USHMM is a poor source.

joachim neander wrote:You ask for "sources." Well, as so often in history, the main sources are the reports of those who participated in the event: those who were tattooed or who did the tattooing (it was made exclusively by prisoners, not SS). No "Tattooing decree" or something similar was issued by some camp or higher authority.

Here we go again, depending on "witnesses." No higher authority or "decree." If this is the case, I may join those who doubt there was ever a policy to tattoo prisoners at Auschwitz. If prisoners were tattooing themselves -- for what reason? This opens a whole new area of investigation.

joachim neander wrote:As so often in wartime, decisions were made on the spot, and please do not forget that German military, as well as the SS, had the "Auftragstaktik" doctrine: the officer only gets the order what to achieve, it is to his discretion how he achieves this goal and which means he chooses for this purpose.

So what do you think the "order what to achieve" was that, at Auschwitz, only they (someone?) decided that tattooing prisoners would be a good idea? And it went on from 1941 through 1944, through changes in Commandants,who instituted changed policies but never about tattooing, it seems. It all sounds like more of the mythical legends that official establishments like USHMM pass on with no qualms.

joachim neander wrote:You ask about Auschwitz camp records of Wiesel father and son. Please do not forget that the Auschwitz museum has files of not more than about ten per cent of all registered prisoners. The original Auschwitz prisoner files were destroyed at the end of the war, and what Auschwitz has today is a reconstruction made from documents in which "Auschwitz" is mentioned, obtained from places around whole Europe, Israel and the U.S.

So the Auschwitz camp records are a "reconstruction" too, like the "gas chamber," amounting to only 10% of the total. Hmmm. Once again, not much to base the legend on -- or should I say this most highly documented event in history. :lol:

joachim neander wrote:If both Wiesels e.g. appear on an extant Buchenwald list of intakes from Auschwitz, they will have a file card at the Auschwitz archives, too, with the same information. But IIUYC you're looking for a document issued by Auschwitz before the Wiesels left this camp. Maybe there is something, but the odds are 1:10. But please do not forget: absence of proof is never proof of absence.

You must know by now that the Wiesels, father and son, do not appear on Buchenwald lists. From that, then, I can know they will have no record at Auschwitz either. Yet, you leave the whole question open with the 10% clause. Therefore, we rely again on witnesses, in his case, self-witness. How handy it all works out.
Good thing for us that Mr. Elie Wiesel has claimed on the record that he does have a tattoo of number A-7713 on his arm, which means he claims he was registered at Auschwitz.

joachim neander wrote:You complain that you asked Auschwitz and did not get an answer. Please do not overinterpret this, e.g. as "bad will." You are not the only person who made this experience. There are only two people employed at the prisoner files department of the archives. They get hundreds of requests every week. In addition to their routine archival work, they simply do not have the time to answer everybody.

At the A-B website, there are the names of three archivists with four telephone numbers, for contact purposes. I wrote to both the head and deputy archivist and called the main archive office twice. Others have written about less sensitive issues than Elie Wiesel and gotten replies.
I am sure they would have Lazar Wiesel, born Sept. 4, 1913 (plus his brother Abram) in their records, since Buchenwald has them. This is the person that is being passed off as Elie. But, of course, he is not.

joachim neander wrote:Compared to U.S. standards, e.g. the USHMM, the Auschwitz archives are very primitive and hopelessly understaffed. You cannot compare the situation here in Poland with that in the U.S. I could call them, but that would not help much. I would have to dig in the files myself. And to travel there, which is not so easy for me. But I already noticed the case for my next visit, probably in October.

You asked where I saw the tattoos: on the inner side of the forearm.
Was this helpful for you?


The USHMM is nothing but a hoax propaganda outlet, so if the Auschwitz archives are far below that standard of record-keeping, how helpful can they be? I recall that fraudulent photograph of the burning of "bodies" given a prominent spot in their museum. :shock: However, whatever you can find out in October will be much appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Most tattoos are seen on the outside of the forearm, which makes more sense to me. I don't trust tattoos on the inner side. But the whole tattoo issue may become another passing cloud. The deeper you look into the "holocaust" details, the more you find yourself in "blue sky."
Yes, it was helpful.
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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby joachim neander » 9 years 1 month ago (Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:05 am)

Dear Miss Yeager, if this is really your opinion -
Here we go again, depending on "witnesses." No higher authority or "decree." If this is the case, I may join those who doubt there was ever a policy to tattoo prisoners at Auschwitz.
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you should better leave the field of historiography. Over ninety per cent of the sources historians have been working with are "eyewitness reports." For the whole ancient history we have nothing but reports, often even not from eyewitnesses, but from "second hand" witnesses, written down, as a rule, much time after the event. Please doubt the Peloponnesian and the Persian-Greek Wars, the wars between the Philistines and Israel, the Battle of the Teutoburger Wald, Julius Cesar's conquest of Gallia, and the mass rapes of German, Polish, Hungarian and Yugoslav women by the Red Army - everything only documented by witness testimonies. But do not expect to be taken seriously by the profession.

Carolyn Yeager
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Re: Post-war Polish Christians having Auschwitz tattoos

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 9 years 1 month ago (Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:17 pm)

joachim neander wrote:Dear Miss Yeager, if this is really your opinion -
Here we go again, depending on "witnesses." No higher authority or "decree." If this is the case, I may join those who doubt there was ever a policy to tattoo prisoners at Auschwitz.
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you should better leave the field of historiography. Over ninety per cent of the sources historians have been working with are "eyewitness reports." For the whole ancient history we have nothing but reports, often even not from eyewitnesses, but from "second hand" witnesses, written down, as a rule, much time after the event. Please doubt the Peloponnesian and the Persian-Greek Wars, the wars between the Philistines and Israel, the Battle of the Teutoburger Wald, Julius Cesar's conquest of Gallia, and the mass rapes of German, Polish, Hungarian and Yugoslav women by the Red Army - everything only documented by witness testimonies. But do not expect to be taken seriously by the profession.


Oh my God. Yes, here we do go again. "You, Miss Yeager, are not qualified to be in our profession of holocaust hoaxters, which we call historiography, because it's based on eyewitness reports, and your inablility to accept that disqualifies you." I think an answer like that disqualifies you, Mr. Neander, from being an honest participant on this forum.
You have ignored all of my questions to you, and have cherry-picked this one item. Yet my questions were based on what you wrote in your previous post.

We are not talking about the Peloponnesian War, but about a recent event with quite a lot of documentation and actual physical sites to check out. Yet you are telling me that eyewitness reports are sufficient evidence when courts, and the legal profession itself, has determined they are not. You might as well be saying that it's alright that they destroyed all the evidence at the 9/11 sites because eyewitness testimony (and what people watched on TV) is sufficient to give us all the answers we need.

Obviously, you do not want to wade into the issues I brought up. If you could dismiss them easily, you would certainly do so. But ... maybe you will have more to say. I'll wait for it.
In Jewish history there are no coincidences ... Elie Wiesel
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