Maria Mandel 'signed orders for gassing'

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Kageki
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Maria Mandel 'signed orders for gassing'

Postby Kageki » 1 decade 2 months ago (Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:59 pm)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Mandel

On October 7, 1942, Mandel was assigned to the Auschwitz II Birkenau camp in Poland where she became SS Lagerführerin, a female commandant under (male) SS Kommandant Rudolf Höß. As a woman she could never outrank a man, but her control over both female prisoners and her female subordinates was absolute. The only man Mandel reported to was the commandant. She controlled all the female Auschwitz camps and female subcamps including at Hindenburg, Lichtenwerden, Budy and Rajsko.

Mandel took a liking to Irma Grese, whom she promoted to head of the Hungarian women's camp at Birkenau. According to some accounts, Mandel often stood at the gate into Birkenau waiting for an inmate to turn and look at her: any who did were taken out of the lines and never heard from again. In the Auschwitz camps Mandel was known as "The Beast", and for the next two years she participated in selections for death and other documented abuses. She reportedly often chose so-called "pet" Jews for herself, keeping them from the gas chamber for a time until she tired of them, then sending them to their deaths. Mandel is also said to have enjoyed selecting children to be killed. She created the Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz to accompany roll calls, executions, selections, and transports.

She signed orders sending an estimated half a million women and children to their deaths in the gas chambers at Auschwitz I and II.


Source:
Brown, D. P.: The Camp Women: The Female Auxiliaries Who Assisted the SS in Running the Nazi Concentration Camp System

I somehow doubt this book actually contained the copy of these orders. Either way it would be nice to see them if anyone knows about it.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:40 am)

If there would be signed orders for gassings, the Holocaustians would have presented them triumphantly long ago.
She signed orders sending an estimated half a million women and children to their deaths in the gas chambers at Auschwitz I and II.

She did the one half a million, while Hoess did do the other? Now that just sounds too sucked out of the thumb.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Kingfisher » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:37 am)

This is the Holocaust story in a nutshell, isn't it? A narrative unsupported by evidence is presented in some book, and because no criticism of it is ever published in any of the media the world at large accepts it unquestioningly.

[PS added in an edit] As soon as it comes to the Holocaust, Wikipedia's definition of a "reliable source" flies out of the window, along with any concept of objectivity. A "Holocaust-denier" is by definition not a reliable source. There are articles where more than half the source references are to Nizkor. They freely cite polemic Holocaust-promoting sources, but have a blanket ban on Codoh, VHO, etc.

They also beg the question, as in The Leuchter Report where the article begins by stating that "The Leuchter Report is a pseudoscientific document...". Now, if that were indeed the conclusion you came to, after a study of the "reliable sources" its proper place would come after demonstrating it. Not in the first line.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Hans » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:29 am)

Kingfisher wrote:This is the Holocaust story in a nutshell, isn't it? A narrative unsupported by evidence is presented in some book, and because no criticism of it is ever published in any of the media the world at large accepts it unquestioningly.


Some Wikipedia pages do contain questionable or false claims. The above is certainly one of them. But this is no Holocaust specific problem, it is general. Also that a researcher draws a wrong conclusion based on a simplified view he holds. But this claim about Mandel would hardly make into an article by any good Holocaust historian.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Kageki » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:27 am)

Hans wrote:Some Wikipedia pages do contain questionable or false claims. The above is certainly one of them. But this is no Holocaust specific problem, it is general. Also that a researcher draws a wrong conclusion based on a simplified view he holds. But this claim about Mandel would hardly make into an article by any good Holocaust historian.


But this claim is being made and a rather extraordinary one. It would be a smoking gun. It's either true or not. If you are implying that this claim is questionable then it needs to be clarified. A claim that this individual had ordered the death of 500,000 people is not something you can just brush off. Are you not admitting the lack of any professionalism in this? Are you saying it's not true? Maybe you like to volunteer to edit this wikipedia article then?

Is it true or not? Where are these orders? This would surpass even the vaunted confessions of Hoess and Gerstein. It's the kind of proof Revisionists have been asking for.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Hans » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:06 am)

Kageki wrote:
Hans wrote:Some Wikipedia pages do contain questionable or false claims. The above is certainly one of them. But this is no Holocaust specific problem, it is general. Also that a researcher draws a wrong conclusion based on a simplified view he holds. But this claim about Mandel would hardly make into an article by any good Holocaust historian.


But this claim is being made and a rather extraordinary one. It would be a smoking gun.



The Wiki site just claims she has signed those orders, not that they still exist.

The person who has made this claim apparently assumes that because Mandel was responsible for the interned women in the camp, she was also responsible for all killings of women in the camp. But most women who were killed in Auschwitz were never interned in the camp but came directly off the ramp and so were not in her sphere of influence. Mandel may have been responsible for the killing of interned female inmates and she may have signed orders in this respect, but such orders are not left (there may be testimonial evidence for this claim though) and the number of victims would be at the order of hundreds or thousands but not half million.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:24 am)

Hans wrote:...The Wiki site just claims she has signed those orders, not that they still exist.


But in order to make such claims, one should have the documentary evidence for them at hand.
Or is it again the same old story of "The Holocaust is the best documented genocide in human history" and if one asks for the documents, the reply will be:"The Nazis destroyed the evidence".

Hans wrote:...The person who has made this claim apparently assumes that because Mandel was responsible for the interned women in the camp, she was also responsible for all killings of women in the camp. But most women who were killed in Auschwitz were never interned in the camp but came directly off the ramp and so were not in her sphere of influence. Mandel may have been responsible for the killing of interned female inmates and she may have signed orders in this respect, but such orders are not left (there may be testimonial evidence for this claim though) and the number of victims would be at the order of hundreds or thousands but not half million.
What makes you so certain that "such orders are not left"?!

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby David Baker » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:55 pm)

Kingfisher, your statement "...no criticism is published" does not take into account the laws adopted in many nations outlawing any scrutiny of the Holocaust. A more appropriate statement would read "No criticism is ALLOWED." The so-called "Holocaust" ceases to exist when subjected to cold, forensic science, in addition to a competent, thorough cross-examination of the witnesses in a court of law, where their rambling anecdotes would not gain traction.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Kingfisher » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:22 pm)

No contradiction, David. Some countries use force of law, others universal taboo. A lesser evil.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Kageki » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:08 pm)

Hans wrote:
The Wiki site just claims she has signed those orders, not that they still exist.

The person who has made this claim apparently assumes that because Mandel was responsible for the interned women in the camp, she was also responsible for all killings of women in the camp. But most women who were killed in Auschwitz were never interned in the camp but came directly off the ramp and so were not in her sphere of influence. Mandel may have been responsible for the killing of interned female inmates and she may have signed orders in this respect, but such orders are not left (there may be testimonial evidence for this claim though) and the number of victims would be at the order of hundreds or thousands but not half million.


This is a lot of assumptions. You say "she may have signed orders", but apparently know for sure "such orders are not left"? How do you know? Why don't you go ahead and edit this article then at least on the alleged number of victims? Have you read the book? Here is the author:

http://www.danielpatrickbrown.com/

Daniel Patrick Brown is the author of The Beautiful Beast: The Life and Crimes of SS-Aufseherin Irma Grese, The Protectorate & the Northumberland Conspiracy, Woodrow Wilson and the Treaty of Versailles, The Tragedy of Libby and Andersonville Prison Camps and The Camp Women: The Female Auxiliaries who Assisted the SS in Running the Nazi Concentration Camp System

He serves as a member of the Los Angeles Museum of the Holocaust Advisory Board.
Professor Brown has taught at the high school, college, and university levels since 1974 and he was selected as the Distinguished Faculty Chair at Moorpark College for the 1997-1998 Academic Year. In addition, he has served as an interviewer for the Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation.


You realize you are criticizing the work of a professor who serves as a member of the Los Angeles Museum of the Holocaust Advisory Board?

I suppose the first order of business is getting a hold of this book or at least obtain the relevant excerpts. Hans you seem like an expert so maybe you like to volunteer to clear this matter up? This isn't just a matter of making wanton assumptions on a forum. This is real history.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Hans » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:42 am)

Kageki wrote:
Hans wrote:
The Wiki site just claims she has signed those orders, not that they still exist.

The person who has made this claim apparently assumes that because Mandel was responsible for the interned women in the camp, she was also responsible for all killings of women in the camp. But most women who were killed in Auschwitz were never interned in the camp but came directly off the ramp and so were not in her sphere of influence. Mandel may have been responsible for the killing of interned female inmates and she may have signed orders in this respect, but such orders are not left (there may be testimonial evidence for this claim though) and the number of victims would be at the order of hundreds or thousands but not half million.


This is a lot of assumptions. You say "she may have signed orders", but apparently know for sure "such orders are not left"? How do you know? Why don't you go ahead and edit this article then at least on the alleged number of victims? Have you read the book? Here is the author:

http://www.danielpatrickbrown.com/

Daniel Patrick Brown is the author of The Beautiful Beast: The Life and Crimes of SS-Aufseherin Irma Grese, The Protectorate & the Northumberland Conspiracy, Woodrow Wilson and the Treaty of Versailles, The Tragedy of Libby and Andersonville Prison Camps and The Camp Women: The Female Auxiliaries who Assisted the SS in Running the Nazi Concentration Camp System

He serves as a member of the Los Angeles Museum of the Holocaust Advisory Board.
Professor Brown has taught at the high school, college, and university levels since 1974 and he was selected as the Distinguished Faculty Chair at Moorpark College for the 1997-1998 Academic Year. In addition, he has served as an interviewer for the Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation.


You realize you are criticizing the work of a professor who serves as a member of the Los Angeles Museum of the Holocaust Advisory Board?

I suppose the first order of business is getting a hold of this book or at least obtain the relevant excerpts. Hans you seem like an expert so maybe you like to volunteer to clear this matter up? This isn't just a matter of making wanton assumptions on a forum. This is real history.


I looked but I cannot access the book via my library and not even via inter library loan. Apparently, the book is considered not too relevant and interesting by major German university libraries. And I can even access Mattogno's book by the way! Now, this is interesting that even though there is a law against Holocaust denial here (and just for the record, I'm against this law), ANY German can get and read main Revisionist works from German libraries and this is perfectly legal.

So I haven't read the book, but it very clear from the well known history of Auschwitz that in her position Mandel couldn't have signed orders to kill half a million people. So it is only reasonable to assume that such orders do and did not exist and that either the person who has written the Wiki article or Brown has misinterpreted the thing.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:44 am)

Hans wrote:I looked but I cannot access the book via my library and not even via inter library loan. Apparently, the book is considered not too relevant and interesting by major German university libraries. And I can even access Mattogno's book by the way! Now, this is interesting that even though there is a law against Holocaust denial here (and just for the record, I'm against this law), ANY German can get and read main Revisionist works from German libraries and this is perfectly legal.
Not all books by revisionists are on the index. And that "law" is rather used for the prosecution of the authors not to vaporize the books. You can also own ONE of those indexed books, your trouble only starts once your apartment is searched and they'll find a couple of books of the same indexed title.
Even if books are indexed you still can get them via the library, just that you have to give your ID and sign a document that you are only going to use this for educational purposes. Of course it is also not allowed to advertise or solicit these books.

So effectively the publishing of such books is neutralized, since you already have to know about a title and then spent quite some effort to gain access to a printed version.

Hans wrote:So I haven't read the book, but it very clear from the well known history of Auschwitz that in her position Mandel couldn't have signed orders to kill half a million people. So it is only reasonable to assume that such orders do and did not exist and that either the person who has written the Wiki article or Brown has misinterpreted the thing.
I don't understand what you mean now.
Did such orders exist or didn't they?
If they existed, do the orders still exist in the sense that they are accessible by historians/public or not?
If you believe they don't exist anymore, why are you so certain about this?

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Balsamo » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:03 am)

That some Historians are writing bullshits about the Holocaust is not new, unfortunately.
Because it is easy! As a matter of facts, books on the Holocaust, when they are bad, are simply ignored and not denounced. Maybe because there are so many bad works on this subjects.

Historians are human being, just like anyone else. Some have real carreer plans. Part of this plan is publication. So they publish, and it is better to publish bad books than no books at all.
I have not read this one, but this kind of assertions are quite common in low level work. As is complete absence of logic and second thinking. If Dear Maria is responsable for half the killings, a lot of others should be freed of charges.
The fact that Maria was judge by the Poles in 1946-47 could explain some of the exaggerations Daniel Brown took for granted.
Another funny guy is Lawrence Rees who basically only used Survivor's tales to make a "new history" of Auschwitz.

But you find a whole lot of bad works on many other Historical Subjects. Depending on the country, in France you find loads of written Bullshits on the French revolution, i would guess that Poland should have some romantic views of their history. I still remember how the Russians pretended fighting 600.000 Germans soldiers in Berlin 45...number you could hear in numerous documentaries on TV...and so it goes a long way... Of course, those are not international issues, so most of you don't care.
The Holocaust on the other hand is a truely international subject, and of course much more written about, so expect to find even more craps.

Wiki is not a encyclopedia, and you'll note that the french article on Mandel does not quote Brown. It is also possible that the author of the Article misquoted Brown. I don't know as i did - nor will - read the book

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby David Baker » 1 decade 2 months ago (Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:41 pm)

Balsamo, most Jewish "Victims" found to have authored false tales of their Holocaust experiences are instantly characterized as 'Confused Goyim', who suffer from some mental abnormality. Read Dr. Lipstadt's conciliatory approbation of Binjamin Wilkomirski's published deception entitled "Fragments". With amazing chutzpah, she laments not another fake Holocaust tome being exposed, but the fact that the author was caught in a huge lie. His transformation to a gentile status was part of deliberate damage control for the purveyors of "Shoah Business", as was the equally quick silencing of another 'witness', whose lucrative lecture tours ended after she identified Wilkomirski as "My Little Binji" (Oh brother..)
Many of the 'witnesses' can be exposed in this fashion. They really do have to walk on eggshells when they start spouting specific names, dates and other technical data.

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Re: Maria Mandel signed orders for gassing

Postby Kageki » 1 decade 2 months ago (Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:43 am)

Balsamo wrote:That some Historians are writing bullshits about the Holocaust is not new, unfortunately.
Because it is easy! As a matter of facts, books on the Holocaust, when they are bad, are simply ignored and not denounced. Maybe because there are so many bad works on this subjects.

Historians are human being, just like anyone else. Some have real carreer plans. Part of this plan is publication. So they publish, and it is better to publish bad books than no books at all.
I have not read this one, but this kind of assertions are quite common in low level work. As is complete absence of logic and second thinking. If Dear Maria is responsable for half the killings, a lot of others should be freed of charges.
The fact that Maria was judge by the Poles in 1946-47 could explain some of the exaggerations Daniel Brown took for granted.
Another funny guy is Lawrence Rees who basically only used Survivor's tales to make a "new history" of Auschwitz.

But you find a whole lot of bad works on many other Historical Subjects. Depending on the country, in France you find loads of written Bullshits on the French revolution, i would guess that Poland should have some romantic views of their history. I still remember how the Russians pretended fighting 600.000 Germans soldiers in Berlin 45...number you could hear in numerous documentaries on TV...and so it goes a long way... Of course, those are not international issues, so most of you don't care.
The Holocaust on the other hand is a truely international subject, and of course much more written about, so expect to find even more craps.

Wiki is not a encyclopedia, and you'll note that the french article on Mandel does not quote Brown. It is also possible that the author of the Article misquoted Brown. I don't know as i did - nor will - read the book


Keep in mind that this historian is a dean and a member of a Holocaust museum.

I emailed the author for clarification, but have not heard back yet.

The french article does not even have a source and I cannot tell if it repeats this gassing order claim.


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