Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

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The Warden
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Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby The Warden » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:48 am)

Can someone explain the information on the following:

Image

Translated (according to Wikipedia):

Subject: Report to the Führer about fight against gangs
Report No. 51
Southern Russia, en:Ukraine, en:Bialystok
Successes in fight against gangs from 1st October until 1st December en:1942

1.) Bandits:
a) Casualties in fights (x)
August September October November total
227 381 427 302 1337
b) Prisoners executed immediately
125 282 87 243 737
c) Prisoners executed after thorough interrogation
2100 1400 1596 2731 7828
2.) Bandit accomplices and suspects
a) arrested
1342 3078 8337 3795 16553
b) executed
1198 3020 6333 3706 14257
c) Jews executed
31246 165282 95735 70948 363211
3.) Turncoats thanks to German propaganda
21 14 42 63 140

(x) The number of casualties are to be considered much higher,
because the Russians carry off their fallen or bury them immediately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Himmler_report.jpg

I tried the search function, but I couldn't find this document using it.

Thanks for any help.
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Ray Barren » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:09 pm)

The Warden wrote:Can someone explain the information on the following:


The Warden

By explain you likely mean to somehow discount this report which records the execution of 363211 Jews within a quarter of 1942. I am very familiar with this document. Assembled for Himmler and passed along to Hitler. What else needs to be explained?
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby The Warden » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:33 pm)

Obviously, I'm more interested in another explanation, or if it's fraudulent.
I'd like to read some discussion on it if it's been had here.

I noticed a thread where a speech of Himmler's was in question where the term "exterminated" is under question. Perhaps this is similar?
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Hektor » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:37 pm)

Is this a joke?

No letter head, no signature, no filing number or other ID/referencing of the document. And these are just some "curiosities" with this "document".

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby The Warden » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:46 pm)

Hektor wrote:Is this a joke?

No letter head, no signature, no filing number or other ID/referencing of the document. And these are just some "curiosities" with this "document".


That's what I'd like to know. It's listed as proof of 300,000+ "executions" in 4 months.
I'd like to know some information on it besides Wikipedia. This is the first time I've come across it.

Does anyone know where this sprouted from, or any other places it can be found?
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Hans » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:24 pm)

Hektor wrote:Is this a joke?

No letter head, no signature, no filing number or other ID/referencing of the document. And these are just some "curiosities" with this "document".


So what are the others?

By the way, there is a letterhead "Reichsführer-SS Feldkommandostelle". This is exactly the letterhead used by Himmler in other correspondence. If the other Meldungen have no filing number, there is no problem as long as it is consistence. According to the literature, the Meldungen were signed by Himmler, so I suspect there is a second page with that.

Which brings us back to my original question: what are the others?

I do have another, but against your case. Who would put executions of 363211 Jews under the heading "gang supporters and gang suspects"? Rather not an allied, even Jewish or Jew-friendly forger. Most likely an antisemite who considers any Jew a gang supporter or gang suspect (per definition) - like Himmler. So strongly suggests Nazi authorship.
Last edited by Hans on Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Hans » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:36 pm)

The Warden wrote:
Hektor wrote:Is this a joke?

No letter head, no signature, no filing number or other ID/referencing of the document. And these are just some "curiosities" with this "document".


That's what I'd like to know. It's listed as proof of 300,000+ "executions" in 4 months.
I'd like to know some information on it besides Wikipedia. This is the first time I've come across it.

Does anyone know where this sprouted from, or any other places it can be found?


This seems to be from Fleming's HItler and the Final Solution, who has it from the BA as the there is Bundesarchiv stamp on it. Likewise in the literature you find the following archive reference for the reports: BA, NS 19/2566

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:40 pm)

Yawn, this is such old news.

This piece of paper is pushed off as 'evidence', but upon inspection we see that it is nothing more than a piece of paper. It's a crude fake attempting to claim that 363,211 Russian Jews had been executed.

This alleged "document" is particularly clumsy, and quite absurd.

take note:

- no official stationary
- no signatures
- initials that could be easily added
- no indication of typist...standard procedure
- no forensic/physical confirmation via mass graves for numbers given
- could have been typed by anyone
- completely unverifiable

see:
'fake Einsatzgruppen document'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68
also:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html
and
http://vho.org/VffG/1999/2/Image24.jpg

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Ray Barren » 9 years 1 month ago (Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:28 am)

The Warden wrote:I noticed a thread where a speech of Himmler's was in question where the term "exterminated" is under question. Perhaps this is similar?


The phrase Juden exekutiert can have no other meaning than the obvious and provides even less room to wiggle than the Himmler speech (though revisionists somehow find a way I found).

Kudos to Hans. The forgery allegations just do not appear legit at all; through the smokescreen it seems as though they are a delaying or scapegoat tactic to avoid the weight of the document. The document was already presented at IMT trials against Nazi criminals in 1947-1948. Writer David Irving never challenged this document's authenticity but simply believes that Hitler may not have been made aware of it and that the body count is inflated to some degree. This is a more realistic approach though his points still appear rather weak when compared to the evidence.
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby The Warden » 9 years 1 month ago (Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:29 pm)

Whether or not it's fraudulent is beyond my realm of knowledge. It does appear to be missing certain elements possessed by actual verified documents.

The revolving door known as "document destruction" is ever present in cases like this. This document is one of a scattered few used to prove an "extermination program".
Why was this document preserved if this program was "secret"?
Why wouldn't it be destroyed immediately after being read to maintain this "secrecy"?
In fact, why would these figures be sent in the first place under a "secret program"?

Also, the point must be made that documents seem to come and go when needed as proof. The Exaggerationists use these scattered few to prove a "secret" program, but when asked to show documentation for anything else, they claim the documents were destroyed.
Why would the Germans leave behind such "damaging" evidence?
Did some take the time to sort through these documents as the Allies approached while other rigged the explosives?

Also, the idea that an organized group of 300,000+ jews, in the middle of Hitler's Germany, were part of partisan forces in a 4 month span is extremely hard to believe when the rest of them were being relocated. If there were that many organizing against Germany, it would certainly be well known. It would be considered treason and punishable under the law at the time. No one would've forced them to fight against Germany, the option to leave was always there.

These elements make me wonder how this document could be real, and how it survived the last moments of the war if it was what it is claimed to be.


I have no stance on this document as of now, but the answers to those questions would tend to make me think this document either wasn't accurate and disregarded as such, considered acceptable under German law at the time since partisan forces were considered enemies of Germany, or never existed in the first place.

Be nice, I'm new. :mrgreen:
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Ray Barren » 9 years 1 month ago (Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:02 pm)

The Warden wrote: The revolving door known as "document destruction" is ever present in cases like this. This document is one of a scattered few used to prove an "extermination program".
Why was this document preserved if this program was "secret"?
Why wouldn't it be destroyed immediately after being read to maintain this "secrecy"?
In fact, why would these figures be sent in the first place under a "secret program"?


Leaving the unlikely forgery bit aside your statements do not make sense to me. When you come across this document, you wonder why the execution of so many Jews were documented in the first place if the program was secret. On the flip side you attack what you believe is a lack of evidence. The two stances cannot logically be held at the same time.

What is more likely to have happened is that certain documents were destroyed or lost, hidden or what have you, while other ones weren't, slipped through the cracks through some fashion. It was not like all the documents were in one place and a single staff member was charged to go through and pick documents to leave in or take out. They were shared and found across multiple areas and bureaucracies and through different circumstances.

Also, the idea that an organized group of 300,000+ jews, in the middle of Hitler's Germany, were part of partisan forces in a 4 month span is extremely hard to believe when the rest of them were being relocated. If there were that many organizing against Germany, it would certainly be well known. It would be considered treason and punishable under the law at the time. No one would've forced them to fight against Germany, the option to leave was always there.


Im afraid you are misunderstanding the document or didnt read it closely. It was not about Jews in Germany but in Russia south, Ukraine, and Bialystok area. I have seen sometimes that revisionists think this is where the Nazis sent the Jews yet they dont seem to understand that the Jews in this area where being killed as well.

And dont feel bad. I am new to the debate as well. That is why we learn from our mistakes and confusions.
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Reinhard » 9 years 1 month ago (Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:43 pm)

The Warden wrote:It does appear to be missing certain elements possessed by actual verified documents.


Hm, there is missing any security classification ("secret", "top secret").

And I'd like to see the second page of that document in facsimile also.
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby The Warden » 9 years 1 month ago (Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:13 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:Leaving the unlikely forgery bit aside your statements do not make sense to me. When you come across this document, you wonder why the execution of so many Jews were documented in the first place if the program was secret. On the flip side you attack what you believe is a lack of evidence. The two stances cannot logically be held at the same time.


The opposite of that was my point.
If it was a "secret" program, why would there be documents? Illogical.
Why would they be left behind instead of allegedly destroyed with the lot of them, especially if they weren't sorted? Illogical.

There seems to be walking on two sides of the street in both arguments, and neither argument is proven beyond doubt.

Ray Barren wrote:What is more likely to have happened is that certain documents were destroyed or lost, hidden or what have you, while other ones weren't, slipped through the cracks through some fashion. It was not like all the documents were in one place and a single staff member was charged to go through and pick documents to leave in or take out. They were shared and found across multiple areas and bureaucracies and through different circumstances.


Then where are the rest of the documents? Why are there so few documents of this "secret" program if they obviously didn't care about the numbers being sent (if you believe the document in this thread).
This is the problem; The minute the documents can't be produced, the claim is immediately shifted to them being destroyed. They try to make Revisionists disprove something that hasn't been proven. Impossible. Illogical.

Ray Barren wrote:Im afraid you are misunderstanding the document or didnt read it closely. It was not about Jews in Germany but in Russia south, Ukraine, and Bialystok area. I have seen sometimes that revisionists think this is where the Nazis sent the Jews yet they dont seem to understand that the Jews in this area where being killed as well.


My mistake. However, I don't see how it matters if the people were against Germany in Germany or in German controlled areas, or even in the middle of a war on uncontrolled areas. If the numbers are accurate, they could be considered part of the process of war, in which no one who was jewish was forced to fight against German forces. They could've relocated on their own, like many others did.

This document supposedly recorded partisans, not innocent jews going about their daily lives only wishing to be left alone. These were allegedly organized, armed forces.
Again, not part of a "secret extermination program". Simply the victims of a war they chose to fight.

Ray Barren wrote:And dont feel bad. I am new to the debate as well. That is why we learn from our mistakes and confusions.


I don't feel "bad". I tend to side with the Revisionists, which takes away the desire to bother with someone else's personal opinion of me.
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 month ago (Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:33 pm)

Hans says:
By the way, there is a letterhead "Reichsführer-SS Feldkommandostelle". This is exactly the letterhead used by Himmler in other correspondence. If the other Meldungen have no filing number, there is no problem as long as it is consistence. According to the literature, the Meldungen were signed by Himmler, so I suspect there is a second page with that.

What letterhead? There is none, "Reichsführer-SS Feldkommandostelle" is merely typed in.
The problem is that this 'document' doesn't stand up to scrutiny, anyone with a captured German field typewriter could have typed such absurdity and voila! 'Proof'.
I repeat:
- no official stationary
- no signatures
- initials that could be easily added
- no indication of typist...standard procedure
- no forensic/physical confirmation via mass graves for numbers given
- could have been typed by anyone
- completely unverifiable

Ray Barren says:
The phrase Juden exekutiert can have no other meaning than the obvious and provides even less room to wiggle than the Himmler speech (though revisionists somehow find a way I found)....
The document was already presented at IMT trials against Nazi criminals in 1947-1948.
Writer David Irving never challenged this document's authenticity but simply believes that Hitler may not have been made aware of it and that the body count is inflated to some degree. This is a more realistic approach though his points still appear rather weak when compared to the evidence.

The problem is that this 'document' doesn't stand up to scrutiny. So where are the mass graves to support this bogus creation?
IMT? Oh yes, the Nuremberg farce where Jews were supposedly steamed to death in steam chambers, complete with a communist forensic report of those "steam chambers". More on the post war trials here:
'getting the desired 'confession'....via torture' - http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1121
David Irving? Don't make me laugh. He's the same guy who says the Hofle telegram* proves mass murder, when in fact it's no more than a list of those sent to Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor.
A truly "realistic approach" would be to show the physical evidence for such an alleged crime. But wait, this is the 'holocaust', where human remains simply vanish. Hell, even the Czar's family's remains can be found ages after their execution, but for the so called 'holocaust', well ...

*see:
Irving's 'holocaust' lite / but what '2.4 million document'?
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4548
and here:
'Irving attempts 'rehabilitation' via the Hoefle Telegram'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4558

Now here's a straight forward letter to Irving from Revisionist researcher Paul Grubach about the Hoefle telegram, I wonder if Irving will reply.

- Hannover

Grubach's Open Letter to David Irving on his recent change of mind about the Holocaust

Dear David,

I am making a thorough study of the document that you claim changed your mind about the Holocaust. I have a college level German instructor who would be willing to make the appropriate translations of the relevant documents if need be, as long as his/her identity is kept anonymous.

When I asked you where is the document that changed your mind on the Holocaust, here is how you responded: "It is the Hoefle document

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/dec ... Hofle.html"

Concerning this document, you were quoted as saying: "If the document is genuine, it refutes the view of the revisionists that nothing happened." The Guardian made this statement about your change of mind: "[Irving] says that a document, which he is 80% sure is genuine, suggests that 2.4 million Jews were killed in Poland..."

Presumably, here is the English translation of said document on your web site. (Please correct me if I am wrong) It is at http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Ko ... 11242.html

I examined the English translation of the document. It seems to refer to large scale deportations. As of yet, I see nothing at all that says the people being transported were being murdered. It seems to say that there were only a large number of people being transported to certain camps.

This is all very consistent with the Holocaust revisionist thesis as presented by historians Carlo Mattogno and Jurgen Graf in their Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp? and in Mattogno's Belzec in Propaganda, Testimonies, Archeological Research, and History.

My questions to you are these. Let us assume that the document is 100% genuine and authentic. How does the document refute the Holocaust revisionist viewpoint that the mass murder of Jews did not take place in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor? How does it prove that the mass murder of Jews took place in those camps?

I believe that you owe all of your supporters an answer.

Paul Grubach
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Ray Barren » 9 years 1 month ago (Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:51 pm)

The Warden wrote:Then where are the rest of the documents? Why are there so few documents of this "secret" program if they obviously didn't care about the numbers being sent (if you believe the document in this thread).
This is the problem; The minute the documents can't be produced, the claim is immediately shifted to them being destroyed. They try to make Revisionists disprove something that hasn't been proven. Impossible. Illogical.


The Warden, many of the executions in the Russian and Polish territories were recorded and the figures and information passed on to the high levels of RSHA. You might have heard of the Ereignismeldungen? They also are popularly referred to as the Einsatzgruppen reports. Historian Heinz Peter Longerich refers to many of these files in section 2 of his legal report.

http://hdot.org/en/trial/defense/pl2

The problem isn't that there are zero documents as there are documents which clearly show ongoing exterminations and a murderous bureaucracy. Did every document survive? Of course not. No time in history does every document survive. Thats why historians and researches of past must fit documents into narrative based upon surrounding evidence and events. Still when the documents are shown and discussed, such as the one above clear showing Jews killed, revisionists wish to dismiss and discount them as this thread shows. When they dismiss document then next document then next document it turns harder to take them seriously, from an outside perspective.

This document supposedly recorded partisans, not innocent jews going about their daily lives only wishing to be left alone. These were allegedly organized, armed forces.
Again, not part of a "secret extermination program". Simply the victims of a war they chose to fight.


The Jews are not reported as partisans in the document but simple Jews. What brings about this seperate title, distinguished from partisans and other criminals? By this time the Jews who were still alive were lrgely living in ghettos and other enclosures. Were the Jews in partisan movement? No doubt to some degree as Nazis had been murdering them and families for more than a year. Were the 360.000 Jews shot within 3 months all partisans? Several thousand shot a day? No chance. And partisans at his time were not too effective from what I have read.
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