Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 11 months ago (Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:01 pm)

Hannover,
I usually do not base many thoughts on forensic research as it is not my specialty and my knowledge of the field is limited to a few television episodes. I try not to say much about materiale I dont grasp. I dont see an important role in forensics though as I do not base my thoughts on history from what artifacts I can see. Ive never been to a American civil war battlefield but I dont doubt the reality. I also dont doubt other terrible events of the world war such as air raids, rapes, expulsions, arrests, shootings, hangings because I dont see the bodies or specific gun or what else. Perhaps this is my failing?

On David Irving he has been asked many times and is tired of answering endless questions. Here is his response to revisionist Graef:

[1. In my opinion, a mass extermination took place in the aforementioned three camps (it cannot be proved that it was carried out by means of gas; as you know, this is highly controversial).

2. Evidence:

- The well-known correspondence between Wolff and Ganzenmüller concerning Malkinia/Treblinka.

- Himmler’s order not to leave any traces at Treblinka and later to build a farmhouse there.

- Personal interrogation of two witnesses… about Belzec, if the authenticity [of their statements] can be proved.

- The decoded Höfle radio message from January 1943 and in this connection the Korherr report.

2. For 1942: The Höfle document mentions a figure of 1’274’166. For 1942 and 1943, Himmler’s documents reveal the extent of the Reinhardt loot – jewels, watches, coins. Based on this information, it is possible to guess or to calculate an approximate figure for 1943, to wit more than one million. To the Mufti Himmler speaks of “three million".
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:03 am)

Though a relative newcomer to this forum and to revisionism myself, I'd like to welcome Ray Barren. This is a forum for Open Debate, which is only possible when there are contributors of differing viewpoints who are prepared to respect each other personally and examine each other's arguments honestly. There is an unfortunate tendency for some threads to descend into groupthink where any even mildly differing view is shouted down.

To get to the topic in hand:
1. What interests me here is provenance. Revisionists take one look and shout "fake", believers conversely assume it is genuine. But what evidence do we have? If a document is presented, the onus is on the party relying upon the document to show its provenance and to demonstrate that it is genuine, as well as that the interpretations placed upon it are correct. The other party is not required to disprove it. Especially so if it is presented by the accusers who must prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt.

Then if the document points in a certain direction, we must look for supporting evidence. Do we have independent reports, maybe from partisan or civilian sources? And especially material evidence. Did the 300K Jewish bodies vaporise? This is a huge number. There should be vast quantities of evidence. If a holocaust of millions of people is dependent on a few sheets of typed unsigned paper it is looking a bit shaky.

So what do we have? A photocopy of some unsigned typescript on plain unheaded paper. No one on this thread has said who it was produced by, when or where, or in what context. Unless we have some reliable information on provenance it has no more value than if I typed it myself yesterday.

So please, what do we know about the provenance of this document?


2. Assuming that it is genuine (which I do not, this is for the sake of argument) the separate listing of Jews and their much greater number does imply that they were executed as Jews, all Jews being considered ipso facto partisan collaborators. The sheer number implies that these were not just men of fighting age, but women, children and old folk too.

That said, however, the Warden is correct in saying that under rules of international law fighters not belonging to a regular army and/or not wearing the uniform of that army could be shot. In practice, the Germans did not routinely do this in the West, at least; Rassinier and Michel Thomas are two examples of French Resistance fighters who were sent to concentration camps and survived the war. Thomas was Jewish.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Hektor » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:20 am)

Kingfisher wrote:....
To get to the topic in hand:
1. What interests me here is provenance. Revisionists take one look and shout "fake", believers conversely assume it is genuine. But what evidence do we have? If a document is presented, the onus is on the party relying upon the document to show its provenance and to demonstrate that it is genuine, as well as that the interpretations placed upon it are correct. The other party is not required to disprove it. Especially so if it is presented by the accusers who must prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt. ....

Thanks Kingfisher,
Just to get us on track, this is about the document and not about other issues. Those doubting the authenticity have given there reasons and I could easily a couple of them more. It is on those believing in the authenticity of this paper to give their reasons why they do believe so. Simply claiming it's genuine, because one dismisses all arguments against the document out of hand won't do. As for the other issues that were brought up, I believe with some of them there are already threads in existence, where they are discussed.

Kingfisher wrote:...2. Assuming that it is genuine (which I do not, this is for the sake of argument) the separate listing of Jews and their much greater number does imply that they were executed as Jews, all Jews being considered ipso facto partisan collaborators. The sheer number implies that these were not just men of fighting age, but women, children and old folk too.
....

Given that those killed were picked up in the field and had possibly no ID at all. It's a bit funny that they immediately and beyond any doubt would know who were Jews and who were not. A genuine report on kills by anti-partisan units would have taken note of this feature. They'd possibly made a distinction between partisan-fighters and their helpers, but they wouldn't have created a group separate from both labeled "Jews". Instead they would have added an estimate on what the percentage of Jews would have been.

But before we come to the details those defending the document as original should come up with there reasons for their positions. Until now they failed to do so.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby The Warden » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:17 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:The Jews are not reported as partisans in the document but simple Jews. What brings about this seperate title, distinguished from partisans and other criminals?


If you want to take the translations literally, then the subject of the report must be as well:

Document Translation -
Subject: Report to the Führer about fight against gangs
Report No. 51
Southern Russia, en:Ukraine, en:Bialystok
Successes in fight against gangs from 1st October until 1st December en:1942


Unless I'm mistaken, 'gangs" can't refer to anything other than partisans, if I'm to believe "exterminated" means murdered under some secret program.

As Hektor pointed out, if they took the time to separate them by jew/non -jew, it isn't hard to believe they were separated as partisans since that was as easy as seeing them fight.

Ray Barren wrote: By this time the Jews who were still alive were lrgely living in ghettos and other enclosures. Were the Jews in partisan movement? No doubt to some degree as Nazis had been murdering them and families for more than a year.


But as Hannover pointed out, there is no physical evidence to for these claims.
It would be quite a stretch to think the Germans gathered all the bodies and transported them to the camps to dispose of them instead of leaving them in the ghettos as a lesson to anyone else who was thinking about rising against. Especially if the German soldiers felt justified in fighting opposing forces. No armies gather the bodies of their enemies to dispose of them. They leave them there, and the report even states that the Russians took the bodies:

Report Translation - (x) The number of casualties are to be considered much higher,
because the Russians carry off their fallen or bury them immediately.


So where are they?

Ray Barren wrote:Were the 360.000 Jews shot within 3 months all partisans? Several thousand shot a day? No chance. And partisans at his time were not too effective from what I have read.


Then why would the label of 'gangs" be placed on the report? If the Germans were going around committing "murder under a secret extermination program" without a care in the world, why would they even label them "gangs" instead of naming the report "jews exterminated". The separate classification makes me think the Germans were defeating forces fighting against them, along with criminals.

I think it's also important to note if this document is fraudulent, then nothing would be more incriminating and helpful than something saying "jews executed". Quite honestly, if you were to make a document, could you think of a better term to use to make your case?

The document still has no validity, but I still always view this forum as a "discussion" site. Right or wrong, people can come here and learn. What they decide to do with the information is up to them.
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Hektor » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:23 pm)

The Warden wrote:
Ray Barren wrote:...Unless I'm mistaken, 'gangs" can't refer to anything other than partisans, if I'm to believe "exterminated" means murdered under some secret program.

As Hektor pointed out, if they took the time to separate them by jew/non -jew, it isn't hard to believe they were separated as partisans since that was as easy as seeing them fight.

Bear in mind that partisans and their helpers will go to some extent to conceal their true identity as well. And jews have more motive to conceal their identity, if their would be rumors of a drive to exterminate them. So establishing identities of those killed would have been a problem for those compiling the document assuming that it is genuine.

The Warden wrote:
Ray Barren wrote: By this time the Jews who were still alive were lrgely living in ghettos and other enclosures. Were the Jews in partisan movement? No doubt to some degree as Nazis had been murdering them and families for more than a year.


But as Hannover pointed out, there is no physical evidence to for these claims.
It would be quite a stretch to think the Germans gathered all the bodies and transported them to the camps to dispose of them instead of leaving them in the ghettos as a lesson to anyone else who was thinking about rising against. Especially if the German soldiers felt justified in fighting opposing forces. No armies gather the bodies of their enemies to dispose of them. They leave them there, and the report even states that the Russians took the bodies:
Report Translation - (x) The number of casualties are to be considered much higher,
because the Russians carry off their fallen or bury them immediately.

I noticed that Ray Barren is twisting causalities. He makes as if any measure against Jews were just due to unjustified antisemitism and political involvement against the Germans was just a response to such unjustified measures. This is untrue and proved to be so. Jews were over-proportionally involved in the Communist party and it's structure and over-represented amongst political commissaries.
http://wiez.free.ngo.pl/jedwabne/article/25.html
http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/1/Rudolf111-113.html
Those were the political and organizational backbone of any partisan groups. And this was also a reason why they were put into ghetto and other measures taken against them. It is of course possible that any measures taken may have fueled their support for Communism and the partisans even further.



The Warden wrote:So where are they?
Ray Barren wrote:Were the 360.000 Jews shot within 3 months all partisans? Several thousand shot a day? No chance. And partisans at his time were not too effective from what I have read.


Then why would the label of 'gangs" be placed on the report? If the Germans were going around committing "murder under a secret extermination program" without a care in the world, why would they even label them "gangs" instead of naming the report "jews exterminated". The separate classification makes me think the Germans were defeating forces fighting against them, along with criminals.
You got some point their concerning the titling of the document, especially since Jews were the bulk of those killed. The killing of partisans seems to be a side issue.

The Warden wrote:I think it's also important to note if this document is fraudulent, then nothing would be more incriminating and helpful than something saying "jews executed". Quite honestly, if you were to make a document, could you think of a better term to use to make your case?

The document still has no validity, but I still always view this forum as a "discussion" site. Right or wrong, people can come here and learn. What they decide to do with the information is up to them.
Besides the failure to establish authenticity of the document and the phrase you mentioned, their are some other semantic mistakes as well such as were it reads "seine Gefallenen verschleppt" - It seems the person that wrote that document wasn't a first language German speaker although perhaps educated at University level.
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Hannover » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:31 pm)

Ray Barren wrote:Hannover,
I usually do not base many thoughts on forensic research as it is not my specialty and my knowledge of the field is limited to a few television episodes. I try not to say much about materiale I dont grasp. I dont see an important role in forensics though as I do not base my thoughts on history from what artifacts I can see. Ive never been to a American civil war battlefield but I dont doubt the reality. I also dont doubt other terrible events of the world war such as air raids, rapes, expulsions, arrests, shootings, hangings because I dont see the bodies or specific gun or what else. Perhaps this is my failing?

On David Irving he has been asked many times and is tired of answering endless questions. Here is his response to revisionist Graef:

[1. In my opinion, a mass extermination took place in the aforementioned three camps (it cannot be proved that it was carried out by means of gas; as you know, this is highly controversial).

2. Evidence:

- The well-known correspondence between Wolff and Ganzenmüller concerning Malkinia/Treblinka.

- Himmler’s order not to leave any traces at Treblinka and later to build a farmhouse there.

- Personal interrogation of two witnesses… about Belzec, if the authenticity [of their statements] can be proved.

- The decoded Höfle radio message from January 1943 and in this connection the Korherr report.

2. For 1942: The Höfle document mentions a figure of 1’274’166. For 1942 and 1943, Himmler’s documents reveal the extent of the Reinhardt loot – jewels, watches, coins. Based on this information, it is possible to guess or to calculate an approximate figure for 1943, to wit more than one million. To the Mufti Himmler speaks of “three million".

Nobody questions the American Civil War and air raids; there are cemeteries galore, the actions claimed about them do not defy science and logic, and there is no need to question them. On the other hand, the 'holocaust' and it's claims are simply ridiculous, cannot be replicated, not to mention the utter lack of human remains which cannot be shown to exist.

- What correspondence "between Wolff and Ganzenmüller concerning Malkinia/Treblinka"? Show it ... in the German original.

- Show us "Himmler’s order not to leave any traces at Treblinka and later to build a farmhouse there."

- Prove to us the authentication of "Personal interrogation of two witnesses… about Belzec".
And indeed,"If the authenticity [of their statements] can be proved." Oops.

- I see you ignore the threads which debunk the Hofle document*, revealing.

- "Reinhardt loot"? So where is there proof of alleged extermination in citing something which talks of taking jewelry from Jews? Is that your 'holocaust' Ray? ... 'Jews had their jewelry taken so that proves they were gassed and shot into pits'?

- "Based on this information, it is possible to guess or to calculate an approximate figure for 1943, to wit more than one million. To the Mufti Himmler speaks of “three million"." Oh really, show us. Talk is cheap, proof is quite another consideration.

*see:
Irving's 'holocaust' lite / but what '2.4 million document'?
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4548
and here:
'Irving attempts 'rehabilitation' via the Hoefle Telegram'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4558

And my challenge to you, Ray, start a thread on the alleged gas chambers that you believe in and learn.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 8 years 11 months ago (Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:50 pm)

Hannover wrote:Yawn, this is such old news.

This piece of paper is pushed off as 'evidence', but upon inspection we see that it is nothing more than a piece of paper. It's a crude fake attempting to claim that 363,211 Russian Jews had been executed.

This alleged "document" is particularly clumsy, and quite absurd.

take note:

- no official stationary
- no signatures
- initials that could be easily added
- no indication of typist...standard procedure
- no forensic/physical confirmation via mass graves for numbers given
- could have been typed by anyone
- completely unverifiable



- Hannover



It looks like a fake to me. There are two other reasons, that you left out, that can show it is a fake. I don't want to say what they are because I don't want them to correct their mistakes in the future.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 11 months ago (Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:12 am)

So what about provenance? Does no one have any information?

In the absence of provenance, any document has as much value as a piece of toilet paper.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 11 months ago (Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:02 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:1. What interests me here is provenance. Revisionists take one look and shout "fake", believers conversely assume it is genuine. But what evidence do we have? If a document is presented, the onus is on the party relying upon the document to show its provenance and to demonstrate that it is genuine, as well as that the interpretations placed upon it are correct. The other party is not required to disprove it. Especially so if it is presented by the accusers who must prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt.


Thank you much for the welcome and wisdom Kingfisher. Please dont insinuate that I am a believer mcuh as I never call anyone here a denier as the pejorative meaning is too strong. Interpretations and opinions differ and thats all that needs to be recognized. I dont consider myself a believer of anything, religious or else.


Then if the document points in a certain direction, we must look for supporting evidence. Do we have independent reports, maybe from partisan or civilian sources? And especially material evidence. Did the 300K Jewish bodies vaporise? This is a huge number. There should be vast quantities of evidence. If a holocaust of millions of people is dependent on a few sheets of typed unsigned paper it is looking a bit shaky.


We have other Nazi reports popularly called Einsatzgruppen reports documenting the execution of tens of thousands of Jews per month in the former Russian territories. I linked to them in a prior post to The Warden. Heinz Peter Longerich quotes and cites many of these documents although these were from a few months prior to the document this discussion is centered around. With these documents there are also many documents from the civil and SS administration of these areas which show declining Jewish populations and references to the ongoing exterminations. The many documents recording the execution of thousands of Jews in 1941 and 1942 support the authenticity of Himmler's Dec 42 summary report to Hitler which report on a similar subject. For Himmler report in particular, the named HSSPF Prueztmann discussed the reports to Himmler reporting on the 'antipartisan' campaign in the last days of December 1942.

There is also the testimony of the Nazis, Ukrainians, and Jews who witnessed or took part in these workings. These testimonies are too numerous to list here but are easy to find online if you wish to see them.

As this document fit well with other documents and experienced events, there is no reason to challenge the authenticity based upon any surrounding evidence. If you or anyone else has documents which show a different point or message than Himmler's report, we can discuss them. If one wishes one could also compare it to other official reports to Hitler as this is #51, meaning there are 50 others to compare to. One then can compare how the text of Himmler's report is set in the largened font Hitler officially called for, which stands against thoughts of forgery or fakery.

So what do we have? A photocopy of some unsigned typescript on plain unheaded paper. No one on this thread has said who it was produced by, when or where, or in what context. Unless we have some reliable information on provenance it has no more value than if I typed it myself yesterday.

So please, what do we know about the provenance of this document?


The document was initialed twice by Himmler and Hitler staff members, and it was signed by Himmler on second page of document not shown. It also has a clear heading as Hans stated.

As I said previously the document was used in Case 11 Ministries trial, which played out in 1947-1948. I have nothing more specific on who founded it and when specifically, or where. That info is usually accessible in the archive of the document if you or others wish to contact the institutions. The document has been used by historians, researchers, and attorneys for many decades at this point and there is no reason to doubt its authenticity from the successive investigations and continued repeat of the result. Original historian David Irving has also used the document, though he might not like what it shows. Simply not liking what the document says does not amount to a reason to dismiss it as fake.

2. Assuming that it is genuine (which I do not, this is for the sake of argument) the separate listing of Jews and their much greater number does imply that they were executed as Jews, all Jews being considered ipso facto partisan collaborators. The sheer number implies that these were not just men of fighting age, but women, children and old folk too.

That said, however, the Warden is correct in saying that under rules of international law fighters not belonging to a regular army and/or not wearing the uniform of that army could be shot. In practice, the Germans did not routinely do this in the West, at least; Rassinier and Michel Thomas are two examples of French Resistance fighters who were sent to concentration camps and survived the war. Thomas was Jewish.


Yes any partisans themselves could be killed and were as Himmler Dec 42 summary to Hitler shows. The execution of 363211 unarmed Jews though was not allowed under international law.
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 11 months ago (Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:28 pm)

The Warden wrote:If you want to take the translations literally, then the subject of the report must be as well:

Document Translation -
Subject: Report to the Führer about fight against gangs
Report No. 51
Southern Russia, en:Ukraine, en:Bialystok
Successes in fight against gangs from 1st October until 1st December en:1942


Unless I'm mistaken, 'gangs" can't refer to anything other than partisans, if I'm to believe "exterminated" means murdered under some secret program.


The Jews are not listed with the partisans but just as accomplices and suspects. If you wish to think that the 363211 Jews were all honest suspects than thats your right.


But as Hannover pointed out, there is no physical evidence to for these claims.
It would be quite a stretch to think the Germans gathered all the bodies and transported them to the camps to dispose of them instead of leaving them in the ghettos as a lesson to anyone else who was thinking about rising against. Especially if the German soldiers felt justified in fighting opposing forces. No armies gather the bodies of their enemies to dispose of them. They leave them there, and the report even states that the Russians took the bodies:

Report Translation - (x) The number of casualties are to be considered much higher,
because the Russians carry off their fallen or bury them immediately.


So where are they?


From this episemology one would not be able to prove anything and not on a simple discussion forum. If you accept the liquidation of partisans listed in Himmler's summary than it should be easy to show the graves or corpse of the other 22,000 non-Jews recorded as shot in the document, or of other partisans for that matter. Also there are efforts to recover and memorialize the Jewish mass graves, which is an effort that Father Desbois has been working on for a couple years. He has been discussed here on this forum
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5410&start=0

Even then for revisionists it is not enough. Whatever when something is asked for and shown the goal posts are moved.


Then why would the label of 'gangs" be placed on the report? If the Germans were going around committing "murder under a secret extermination program" without a care in the world, why would they even label them "gangs" instead of naming the report "jews exterminated". The separate classification makes me think the Germans were defeating forces fighting against them, along with criminals.


Nazi ideology is the reason behind the classification. Look over many Nazi speeches even before the war and see the connection of Jews collectively to all social evils, criminals, robbers, murderers, communists, capitalists. Remember the 363211 Jews were not listed directly with gangs but just as accomplice and suspects-Bandenhelfer und Bandenverdachtige. Nazi notion of collective Jewish responsibility fed fuel to extermination desires. This is documented in other reports that I linked for you, but only sometimes. Others was reasons of illness, unemployment, food shortage, house shortage, and whatever excuse was wished.

That the Jews weren not heavy roleplayers in the Russian partisan movement is shown by increasing massacres of Jews in 1941-1942 (when weak partisan counterforce to Nazis) but partisan fight grow largely only in 1944 when few Jews left in Nazi territory. Also in the antipartisan operations by Nazis in 1941 and 1942 where many thousands of Jews were murdered there were hardly any-many times zero-Nazi soldiers killed in those actions.
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Reinhard » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:28 am)

Ray Barren wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:1. What interests me here is provenance. Revisionists take one look and shout "fake", believers conversely assume it is genuine. But what evidence do we have? If a document is presented, the onus is on the party relying upon the document to show its provenance and to demonstrate that it is genuine, as well as that the interpretations placed upon it are correct. The other party is not required to disprove it. Especially so if it is presented by the accusers who must prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt.


We have other Nazi reports popularly called Einsatzgruppen reports documenting the execution of tens of thousands of Jews per month in the former Russian territories. I linked to them in a prior post to The Warden. Heinz Peter Longerich quotes and cites many of these documents although these were from a few months prior to the document this discussion is centered around.


Well, actually we don't have the original Einsatzgruppen reports (those have vanished and couldn't be found until today), what we have are "revised and rewritten copies" and alleged "summaries" some official at the RSHA allegedly is said to have made. :roll:

Germar Rudolf writes on this topic:

Germar Rudolf wrote:As documentary evidence for the number of Jews shot by the Einsatzgruppen behind the Russian front, the so-called event reports (Ereignisberichte) are frequently quoted. These reports are said to have been prepared by the Einsatzgruppen, who also supposedly sent them to Berlin, where these documents were found after the war. One of the most well-known experts on the subject of Einsatzgruppen, however, Hans-Heinrich Wilhelm,[26] stated as early as in 1988 that he is not certain whether or not the event reports are correct. Because he could show that the statistics in these reports about the number of murdered Jews are unreliable, he warned his colleagues as follows:[27]

"When the reliability [of these reports] in non-statistically areas is not greater, which can only be verified by comparing them with other sources from the same region, historical research would be well advised to be much more suspicious in future than it was so far when using any SS-sources."

This remark was only consequential, since he did express similar doubts about the reliability of these documents already in his first book, when he speculated:[28]

"that here as well at least several ten thousand exterminated Jews were added to the report in order to 'improve' it, which was otherwise thought to be hardly justifiable, because the number of killed partisans was far too low."

Elsewhere he noted that one of the event reports of the Einsatzgruppen was evidently manipulated by adding a zero to 1,134, thus turning the total to 11,034.[29] The forgers - this is what we deal with here - evidently had an interest in suggesting victim counts as high as possible. In case the Einsatzgruppen were the forgers, then one would assume that they believed that somebody in Berlin desired to see as many Jews murdered as possible. But what if someone else was the forger?

[...]

The event reports were transmitted from the front via radio or telex to a department of the RSHA in Berlin. The official in charge there, who was responsible for the final written form of the reports - as they exist today - was Dr. Günther Knobloch (born 1910). During a hearing by the Central Office Ludwigsburg in 1959 Knobloch gave the following description about the preparation of the event reports and the Activity- and Situation Reports:[48]

"From the incoming flood of messages I always marked the interesting parts red and our secretaries knew exactly, in what form to bring these messages. [...] It was important at that time that the messages were quite voluminous. [...] Because of this I saved material from days, when we received many messages, for days with only a few messages. The messages from the individual Kommandos and Groups were always filed under these Kommandos and Groups, and an error can of course not necessarily be ruled out. [...] Practically no changes in content occurred. [...] I would like to add, however, that SS-Gruppenführer Müller [...] frequently made handwritten changes also to the actual content. [...] I also had often the impression that the information contained exaggerated events and numbers.[...]

At some time in the year 1942, we had to summarize the daily event reports in fortnightly reports, and later these were even changed to monthly reports. But it is also possible that the sequence was reverse. These summaries were prepared by me as well. [...] These reports were based exclusively on the daily event reports."


The "time in the year 1942" mentioned by Knobloch is either a printing error in the book or Knobloch remembered it wrong, since these Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte exist since June 1941, that is since the very beginning of the Russian campaign. The meaning of these summaries, however, is not clear. Why these repetitions in the Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte, which actually, as Wilhelm noticed while comparing them with the event reports, were often no repetitions but new reports?

From both Wilhelm's and Knobloch's descriptions the following can be deducted: reports from the front, prepared by non-qualified persons-some of them in double or even multiple versions, were received by the RSHA in Berlin by radio or telex, often with considerable delays. There they were reviewed by Knobloch, important parts highlighted, rewritten by secretaries and sent out unchecked and uncorrected as the final event reports. Later on, after weeks, summaries were prepared from these event reports, to which, however, new data were added while others were deleted on an unknown basis. These summaries were issued as Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte (Activity and Situation Reports).

Krausnick and Wilhelm call these reports with their dubious history "authentic" documents. According to the opinion of the same authors, this authenticity is further supported by the following:[49]

    1. they were captured by the U.S. units;

    Partisan warfare during the Russian campaign. Similar pictures became well-known in America only after the U.S. Army applied similar tactics during the Vietnam war.

    2. they were cited in Nuremberg in all relevant trials;

    3. no defense lawyer ever seriously attempted to question their authenticity;

    4. the editors who were responsible within the RSHA for their preparation as well as numerous recipients of the report at that time did identify them.

Regarding #4, the responsible report editor Knobloch testified the following, when photo copies of these reports were submitted to him in Ludwigsburg:[50]

"The photocopies of the reports submitted to me can be considered as the event reports issued at that time in regards to their form."

"In regards to their form" - Knobloch said either nothing about their content or we are not told about it!

Although the above mentioned points made by Krausnick and Wilhelm do in no way prove the authenticity of the submitted documents, they still could be authentic. However the problem in this case is that the events reported in these presumably authentic documents are evidently incongruent with reality, as is clear from the descriptions of Wilhelm and Knobloch.

[26] Together with Helmut Krausnick co-author of the famous book Die Truppe des Weltanschauungskrieges, (The Troop of the War of Ideology) op. cit. (note 17)
[27] H.-H. Wilhelm, lecture during an international history conference at the university Riga, September 20-22, 1988, p. 11. Based on this recital Wilhelm wrote the article "Offene Fragen der Holocaust-Forschung" (Open Question about the Holocaust Research) in U. Backes, E. Jesse, R. Zitelmann (ed.), Die Schatten der Vergangenheit, Propyläen, Berlin 1992 S. 403, which however does not contain this section. I obtained this information from Costas Zaverdinos, who had the manuscript of Wilhelms Riga lecture and who reported about this during the opening speech of the history conference on April 4, 1995 at the university of Natal, Pietermaritzburg.
[28] H.-H. Wilhelm, op. cit. (note 17), p. 515.
[29] Ibid., p. 535


[48] H. Krausnick, H.-H. Wilhelm, op. cit. (note 17), p. 337f.
[49] Ibid., p. 335.
[50] Ibid., p. 338

http://www.vho.org/tr/2003/3/RudolfSchroeder321-330.html


So, why do we only have the "rewritten and revised" editions of the original reports and the "summaries" made by Knobloch and not the original reports as they were submitted by the Einsatzgruppen?

Why are these original reports said to have been destroyed at the end of the war and the alleged "summaries" and "revised and rewritten editions" have faced up at the Nuremberg trials? It makes absolutely no sense to destroy the original reports and to keep the alleged "summaries".

Moreover, if the originals had the top security classification "Geheime Reichssache", it wouldn't have been allowed to make copies!


Ray Barren wrote:As this document fit well with other documents and experienced events, there is no reason to challenge the authenticity based upon any surrounding evidence. If you or anyone else has documents which show a different point or message than Himmler's report, we can discuss them. If one wishes one could also compare it to other official reports to Hitler as this is #51, meaning there are 50 others to compare to.


So, please provide some of the 50 other reports in this form in facsimile for comparison. Why is only one page shown to us? As said before, I'd like to see page two with the signature as well in facsimile. Why is only page 1 presented?

Ray Barren wrote:One then can compare how the text of Himmler's report is set in the largened font Hitler officially called for, which stands against thoughts of forgery or fakery.


Why does this disprove forgery or fakery? Anybody who had captured such a typewriter at the end of the war could have written this "document".

Further to the points made by "Hannover" above there are at least four more items that are missing on this "document":

    - security classification

    - distribution list

    - number of copies

    - file number
And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed, if all records told the same tale, then the lie passed into history and became truth. »Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.«
Orwell 1984

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby The Warden » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:57 am)

Ray Barren wrote:The Jews are not listed with the partisans but just as accomplices and suspects. If you wish to think that the 363211 Jews were all honest suspects than thats your right.


Why is the numbers of "jews executed" so much higher than the total of "executed". If one is to believe they separated jews from the others in this report, the total number would be a sum of both the jews and others, which is nowhere to be found in a report that's supposed to be a just that, a report. No total figure?

I can't help but think "executed" simply means "emigrated" (hypothetically), especially considering there's no physical evidence to support 300,000+ bodies in the areas of these alleged "executions", and there is actual evidence of jews being relocated.

Of course, that's "my right". Thanks for that.

Ray Barren wrote:From this episemology one would not be able to prove anything and not on a simple discussion forum. If you accept the liquidation of partisans listed in Himmler's summary than it should be easy to show the graves or corpse of the other 22,000 non-Jews recorded as shot in the document, or of other partisans for that matter. Also there are efforts to recover and memorialize the Jewish mass graves, which is an effort that Father Desbois has been working on for a couple years. He has been discussed here on this forum
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5410&start=0

Even then for revisionists it is not enough. Whatever when something is asked for and shown the goal posts are moved.


So when asked to show where these 300,000+ remains might be, you explain it would be impossible? And then try to substantiate your claim by saying it would equally impossible to find an even smaller number? Then provide evidence of someone's failed attempt to locate them?

This matter has been dodged enough. Where are the remains of the alleged "jews exterminated"?

The bodies of soldiers can be found in every area where a war has been historically reported, except this miracle of WWII where bodies up and vanish even when a report says the Russians took them.

Took them where?

If someone is going to verify this "important document", you would think they could locate that many remains.

Ray Barren wrote:That the Jews weren not heavy roleplayers in the Russian partisan movement is shown by increasing massacres of Jews in 1941-1942 (when weak partisan counterforce to Nazis) but partisan fight grow largely only in 1944 when few Jews left in Nazi territory.


So your argument is that since the jews WEREN'T partisans, they were "executed" for being jews? But we still have no physical evidence in the areas claimed for these occurrences. If they were weak, then they would've been relocated like the rest. If the Germans were simply executing people where they stood for being jews, why did they keep relocating people to the camps? Why not execute them all where they were found?

Ray Barren wrote:Also in the antipartisan operations by Nazis in 1941 and 1942 where many thousands of Jews were murdered there were hardly any-many times zero-Nazi soldiers killed in those actions.


Finally! Something you can back with physical evidence.

No bodies, no deaths! :cheers:
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Moderator3 » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:55 pm)

Hans,
If you wish to cite other 'documents', then please do so in separate threads per each.

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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby The Warden » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:37 pm)

Just as an exercise in "what-if"s, I modified the document. I'm in no way trying to pass this off as real, but only trying to show how easy it is for someone with a basic program and 10 minutes of spare time can alter anything.

Image

As you can see, the total number of "jews exterminated" is now 4.

With more time, you could never tell anything was altered, but for the purpose of this, I didn't feel a lot of effort was needed.

(EDIT: I posted an image with "VOID" on it to prevent it being used elsewhere.)
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Re: Himmler Report - Gangs - 1942 - Executions?

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:02 pm)

Reinhard:

More information on the titled Einsatzgruppen reports can be found in this question-answer paper by Nick Terry. The view that all of these documents are forged is not based on common sense or facts. Look at the response to question 24, forgery allegation is absurd on its face. These documents were accepted by the Nazi perpetrators in their trials as genuine. Yet revisionists are the first ones to show they are fake???
http://holocaust-history.org/intro-eins ... orts.shtml

The reports and counts on executions were also recorded by British codebreakers during the war. One summary of the intercepts showed more than 12,000 Jews shot in two weeks in August 42 just in one area of the Russian area.

The Warden wrote:
Ray Barren wrote:The Jews are not listed with the partisans but just as accomplices and suspects. If you wish to think that the 363211 Jews were all honest suspects than thats your right.


Why is the numbers of "jews executed" so much higher than the total of "executed". If one is to believe they separated jews from the others in this report, the total number would be a sum of both the jews and others, which is nowhere to be found in a report that's supposed to be a just that, a report. No total figure?


What is the problem here? A number is given for various categories and subjects. Jews made up their individual own category. Why should we expect a total figure when purpose of report is to divide them? Why else would it report on partisans killed in battle, immediately after battle and then shot later after questioning?

A mountain out of a molehill as you seem to wish to dismiss this document at all costs.


I can't help but think "executed" simply means "emigrated" (hypothetically), especially considering there's no physical evidence to support 300,000+ bodies in the areas of these alleged "executions", and there is actual evidence of jews being relocated.

Of course, that's "my right". Thanks for that.


Where did they emigrate to, these executed Jews? Are there any other documents which record people being emigrated, but lists them as "executed" in the original German?

And I thought this report was fake? Who forged this report and why has not been stated yet though.

So when asked to show where these 300,000+ remains might be, you explain it would be impossible? And then try to substantiate your claim by saying it would equally impossible to find an even smaller number? Then provide evidence of someone's failed attempt to locate them?

This matter has been dodged enough. Where are the remains of the alleged "jews exterminated"?


I never said it would be impossible. Ill say my own statements. My point was that this philosophy of proof has never been used in the study of modern history. Forensic or archaeological information as only source of proof doesnt sit too high on the evidentiary weight because it is so often unavailable or unstudied by researchers. I referred to examples in past posts which were handwaved by others. This holds true for many things that revisionists hold dear-communist crimes for one. How many mass graves are there to show the millions of people which we know were killed by the Stalinists and Maoists? Researchers dont look at graves for immediate proof but look at other forms of evidence. They can look at graves but this practice is not highly regarded among the scholars I read. This seems to a very recent trend by the revisionists I have read as the works that I read to see the evidence against the Holocaust (was recommended to read Butz Hoax of 20th Century first).

I showed you the work on some of the mass graves in the past few years, you consider this a "failed attempt"? You can also check reports by Russians on others who recorded the mass graves they found after the war. I do not have them at present. Perhaps if you do some needed research into the topic you can learn about them instead of just asking for revisionist responses to everything as you did with this document. No one expands ones mind through tunnel vision.

How Im reading this discussion is that incessant demands for mass graves and charges of forgery are only real response to document that revisionists can offer at this time as the ultimate fall back defense. Even when graves are shown they are dismissed. You didnt pick up the line until halfway through with this discussion, the godsend it was to feel better about explaining the document-rather not having to now. These types of actions help me understand why revisionists are described as having faulty and conspiracy approaches as they simply negate and offer no alternate interpretations. If thats all revisionism is (forgery allegations and demands for increasing amount of evidence) then Im wasting my time here. I hope Im wrong because I think a discussion can be had for those with open minds on this issue.
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.


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