Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 1933!

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2359
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 1933!

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 11 months ago (Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:12 pm)

herzog_letter.jpg

This was on auction at an Irish auction house called Whytes in December 2009. I believe the Irish national archives bought it. The rabbi is trying to get a lot of prominent Irish people in his pocket to sign a letter about the extermination of the Jews, yet even holocaust historians say it hadn't started happening that early. Strange. It's the Rabbi scheming up a lie with influential people. Some of the cursive can be made out, like the scheming end sentence "I solemnly swear your Lordship that I shall treat this correspondence with the strictest secrecy." Why the secrecy? Oh and a nice touch to show cross religious solidarity on top of second page "A Christian friend tentatively suggested the enclosed list" (of names of influential people.)

Before any alleged gas chamber has been built, before the T4 euthanasia program, with Hitler in power for all of 4 months as Chancellor, we have a description of what became a major characterization of the holocaust myth: "devilish methodicity and ‘scientific’ design." LOL.

His son later became president of Israel.

The Chief Rabbi pleads with Chief Justice Kennedy for
action to be taken to expose atrocities against the Jews:
"The position is going from bad to worse. We no longer cry out
about the atrocities but I have it from an indubitable source
that Jews are being killed in Germany every day, though with
such devilish methodicity and ‘scientific’ design and plan
that it is difficult to speak of pogroms in Germany. Many
Jews brought to the extreme end of despair are committing
suicide. A very prominent Jewish jurist, one of the leading
figures in German Jewry whom I know personally has
exclaimed: ‘Would to Heaven that 5000 Jews were killed in
Germany in one open pogrom, for then the world might
wake up!’"

The letter is accompanied by a list of 29 prominent Irish
persons, whom the writer claimed would support his
protest. The list includes Cardinal MacRory, Archbishop
Gregg, W.B. Yeats, AE, Provost Gwynn and several others.
Isaac Herzog later became Chief Rabbi of Israel and his
son, Chaim (1918-93), became President of the State of
Israel (1988-93).

The description at Whytes Auctions and repeated in publications since,
states "This important letter provided evidence of
the mass persecution of Jews as early as May 1933." Except
holocaust scholars don't even say it had happened yet!

---------
REFERENCE:
Holocaust Memorial Brochure 2010
The Holocaust Memorial Day Committee in association with
the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform;
the Office of the Minister for Integration;
Dublin City Council; Dublin Maccabi Charitable Trust
and the Jewish Representative Council of Ireland
http://www.hetireland.org/uploads/file/HMD2010.pdf
--------------------
ADDITIONAL REFERENCE
JHSE NEWSLETTER
JANUARY 2010 THE JEWISH HISTORICAL SOCIETY OF ENGLAND FOUNDED 1893 ISSUE NUMBER 21
page 6
http://www.jhse.org/files/JHSE21B%5B1%5D.pdf
--------------------
Hugh Kennedy on Wikipedia:
Hugh Kennedy (11 July 1879 – 1 December 1936) was the only Attorney-General of Southern Ireland and the first Attorney-General of the Irish Free State, and later the first Chief Justice of the Irish Free State. As a member of the Irish Free State Constitution Commission, he was also one of the constitutional architects of the Irish Free State. He was also elected to the 4th Dáil.

Diogenes1
Member
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:16 pm

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby Diogenes1 » 8 years 11 months ago (Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:24 pm)

what an amazing discovery. But will it be enough to convince the brain dead goyim? They will be shown this, realize the implications only for a second, then completely forget about it and go on with their lives. Maybe in 200 years mainstream historians will have debunked this episode.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2359
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 11 months ago (Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:14 pm)

Yeah, it makes me think of the statement "If there had been no holocaust, it would have been necessary to create a myth of one." LOL.

I think people just gloss over when you say "even accepted holocaust historians say it hadn't happened yet." It's not a salient point for most people. Rather, they take it like "well according to this letter, those historians are wrong, they should reexamine the documents such as this one." LOL. And then he's seen as some rabbi trying to get the word out but no one would listen.

It's 1933 and he's making holocaust allegations and trying to get influential people on board, as the British Psyche Warfare people got Thomas Mann later involved. Yet, according to holocaust historians, when were the first Jews killed? Or put in camps? '39? '40?

I wonder what the political "I owe you one" dynamic was. Wikipedia states
Rabbi Herzog served as rabbi of Belfast from 1916 to 1919 and was appointed rabbi of Dublin in 1919. He was a fluent speaker of the Irish language. He was Chief Rabbi to the Irish Free State from 1919 - this was prior to formal independence. He was known as "the Sinn Féin Rabbi"[2] He went on to serve as Chief Rabbi of the Ireland between 1922 and 1936, when he immigrated to Palestine to succeed Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook as Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi upon his death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_HaLevi_Herzog

Possibly he wanted a payback favor for Jews supporting Irish Independence. And at this juncture there was no British/German animosity to make Ireland have a conflict of interest.

As an aside, he succeeded Isaac Kook in Palestine, whose nephew, Hillel Kook (name changing to Peter Bergson) was a right wing Zionist responsible for a lot of the initial holocaust myth in the USA via taking out atrocity ads in the New York Times, working with Henry Morgenthau, setting up a huge Madison Square Garden rally, and other activities of "The Bergson Group" but that carries us too far afield.

athenarena
Member
Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:32 pm

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby athenarena » 8 years 11 months ago (Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:10 pm)

Possibly he wanted a payback favor for Jews supporting Irish Independence.
This as as close to invalid as one is going to get because it was virtually impossible for any other religious institution to gain any foothold within Ireland at the time due to the influence and power of the Church. However, only an Irish person who has studied the period would know that.

The Catholic Church only cared for its own institution. W. T Cosgrave our first Taoiseach -the Irish equivilant for a Prime Minister- after the Civil War was a personal friend of the Archbishop of Dublin and such influence was seen in his policies from 1922 to 1932 such as the limiting of selling alcohol, heavy censorship on all books, movies and radio done by the Catholic Church and stopping private bills going through Parliament that equated divorce.

Eamon De Valera who become Taoiseach in 1932 was just the same. He made sure the Eucharistic Congress of 1932 was a huge success to please the Catholic Church. He had incurred their wrath when he had fought against the treaty in the Civil War. Also, the Catholic Church practically wrote our Constitution Bunreacht na hEireann in 1937.

All this evidence and much more points to the futility of the Rabbi even trying such a thing. Especially 11 years at least after the Free State was set up, it just does not make sense to try it now. He would have had his hands more full with the Economic War that was happening at the time with Britain.

Jews were being persecuted at this time although not to the Holocaust extent -I am a believer- although I can see where your point comes from on this. Dachau was also set up in 1933 but as a camp for political prisoners.

I find although convincing, your argument is discredited by your lack of knowledge on Irish history and your lack of knowledge of the culture of Ireland in particular the Catholic Church as then you would not have made your point about. Therefore your argument lacks the authority and credibility to make me believe it.

NSNO
Athenarena

Thesaint
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: England

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby Thesaint » 8 years 11 months ago (Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:50 pm)

"devilish methodicity and ‘scientific’ design."

Another feather goes in the "It IS correct to call the holocaust a hoax" cap.
"We didn't call survivors," says Lipstadt, "because first of all we didn't want to subject them to cross-examination by this guy. He (Irving) would have destroyed them."
- Jerusalem Post 6/16/00

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2359
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 11 months ago (Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:57 pm)

Here's what it looked like in December 2009 when it was at Whyte's Auction House in Ireland.
It's at top left:
herzog_2.jpg


I hate it how these type of things are evidence of the holocaust being a Jewish hoax to get Israel and to defeat Germany by convincing other nations of fake genocide to get the masses to be pro-war. But instead it's looked at in the David S. Wyman sort of way (Wyman Institute) of A Righteous Jew Trying To Alert The Deaf Ears Of World Opinion. LOL

Bradley
Member
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 8:33 pm

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby Bradley » 8 years 11 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:11 pm)

Our Irish scholar sounds knowledgeable about Irish culture, but does not address the specific, relevant language of the good Irish rabbi:
"devilish methodicity and ‘scientific’

Scientific what? What methodicity?
The implications of this language are very suggestive.
They are at the core of the Rabbi's document.
Why not address the specific language in the document that is so suggestive?

athenarena
Member
Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:32 pm

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby athenarena » 8 years 11 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:33 pm)

Bradley says:
Our Irish scholar sounds knowledgeable about Irish culture, but does not address the specific, relevant language of the good Irish rabbi:
"devilish methodicity and ‘scientific’


I was addressing the argument of one of the other posters when I wrote that. Therefore my argument was specific to theirs and not open to the entire thread discussion as not all how mentioned it. I would find it insulting if I did not know the history of the country that bore me, raised me and educated me.

Scientific what? What methodicity?
The implications of this language are very suggestive.
They are at the core of the Rabbi's document.
Why not address the specific language in the document that is so suggestive?


You have answered your own question. The language is suggestive as you state and open to discussion. Most of the argument has come from what Whytes has said who put that tag for the auction piece in hindsight with the idea of the Holocaust already believed. I would say it was to do with the Nuremburg laws but that was 1935. He could be referring to the Nuremburg rallies which were carried out quite methodicitally. As forensic was not a word created at the time, scientific could be used in the cirumspect as science if known for accuracy and precision.

Those words can mean a hundred different things especially since nobody knew! We are judging with hindsight which is dangerous which is what Whytes did.

Thank you for your point,
NSNO,
Athenarena.

TreeHuggingHippie
Member
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:47 pm

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby TreeHuggingHippie » 8 years 11 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:10 pm)

athenarena wrote:He could be referring to the Nuremburg rallies which were carried out quite methodicitally.

But he specifically talks about Jews being killed:
"Jews are being killed in Germany every day, though with such devilish methodicity and ‘scientific’ design and plan"

athenarena
Member
Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:32 pm

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby athenarena » 8 years 11 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:14 pm)

TreeHuggingHippie wrote:
But he specifically talks about Jews being killed: "Jews are being killed in Germany every day, though with such devilish methodicity and ‘scientific’ design and plan"


Then I do not have an answer for that. Jews were not being killed in 1933.

However, on closer inspection of the date at the top of the page, I do not see 33. I see 39. So Whytes was wrong on that account!

Ray Barren
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:26 pm

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 11 months ago (Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:49 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:The description at Whytes Auctions and repeated in publications since,
states "This important letter provided evidence of
the mass persecution of Jews as early as May 1933." Except
holocaust scholars don't even say it had happened yet!


What Holocaust scholars say no persecutions in early 1933? Do you read much of the Holocaust or just declare your doutbs?

Violence was expressed by SS and SA members against Jews after before and after Nazi rise to power. Dachau camp was established weeks before this letter was supposed to be written. There were laws passed stoping Jews from work in certain professional jobs before this letter. Those working in them were fired. Nazi boycotts of Jewish business before this letter. Much persecution. Jews were killed in the violence acts by Nazi followers. Not planned extermination but individual murder. The Rabbi is hearing scared but slight incorrect representations of 1933 Nazi Germany. Are all writings and letters and newscasts on 11 September event exact in correctness of detail as we see them a decade later?

I wonder why some believe this document is genuine? It came out of nowhere 80 years after writing. Word killed has been scribbled and added into the letter in different writing style. HAs this document been chemically tested as authentic?
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.

Carto's Cutlass Supreme
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2359
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:42 am
Location: Northern California

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:12 am)

Ray Barren wrote, regarding first page left side :
Word killed has been scribbled and added into the letter in different writing style.


It's smaller writing, but doesn't seem like a different style, and the sentence doesn't make sense without the word, because then it just says "Jews are being in Germany every day." It's pretty clear that he left out a word, reread the sentence and added it in.

Ray Barren wrote:
What Holocaust scholars say no persecutions in early 1933?

The letter states
‘Would to Heaven that 5000 Jews were killed in
Germany in one open pogrom, for then the world might
wake up!’"

That implies a genocide that is so methodical, so subtle, yet so systematic, that it's happening without people doing anything about it. It's far worse than just 5,000 being killed, so much so, that he wishes that would happen just to alert people of the bigger picture.

To AthenaArena: I never said Jews pulled weight inside Ireland. But they perhaps pulled weight on the Irish political independence issue on a global opinion level, perhaps far more than anyone in Ireland. Similarly they played a role hundreds of years earlier in the Protestant/Catholic conflict. Similarly Jewish opinion regarding Kosovo 10 or so years ago, was probably a bigger factor than anyone in Kosovo. I'm aware that the Jewish demographic in Ireland is nil, that the Jewish influence on the inner workings of the Irish government is nil.

One last thing to mention is he is scheming a way to have the appearance of a lot of non-Jews concerned about Jews in Germany. He's trying to orchestrate that public image impression, fraudulently, behind the scenes. And considering he's a Zionist, he's likely doing it for Zionism.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3336
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby Hektor » 8 years 11 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:48 am)

athenarena wrote:
....
However, on closer inspection of the date at the top of the page, I do not see 33. I see 39. So Whytes was wrong on that account!

It looks pretty much like a 33 to me:
298.jpg

click on the picture to enlarge.

To put this into context regarding "persecution" The boycott of Jewish shops was one month before that, just after Jews "declared war on Germany".
judea_declares_war_Large.png

Click to enlarge, you'll see it's dated 24th of march 1933.

The following NS-pamphlet claims that atrocity rumors were already spread by Jews.
Plakat_-_Zur_Abwehr!_-_Der_Jude_lügt.jpg


The responsive German boycott of Jewish shops (in April) was to my knowledge the only measure against Jews at that stage. The National Socialists were still busy crushing the Communists.

Ray Barren
Member
Member
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:26 pm

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:21 am)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Ray Barren wrote:
What Holocaust scholars say no persecutions in early 1933?

The letter states
‘Would to Heaven that 5000 Jews were killed in
Germany in one open pogrom, for then the world might
wake up!’"

That implies a genocide that is so methodical, so subtle, yet so systematic, that it's happening without people doing anything about it. It's far worse than just 5,000 being killed, so much so, that he wishes that would happen just to alert people of the bigger picture.


The world wasnt doing anything about it. Maybe you misread the letter. The letter just says that if a big pogrom would happen then the world might wake up. Not that the events are worse than a 5000 killed pogrom as you say but that they are more organized. The letter says many suicides are going on from Jews. Other Holocaust scholars have found increase in Jewish suicide rates as result of the Nazi early measures in 1933 with couple hundred killing selves around and before this letter, to put it in context.

But you said there were no persecutions in early 1933. Where did you learn that? Jews had it bad and that is basic understanding of this letter. I listed several anti Jewish acts before this letter which were based on Nazi race science. There were some killing and governmental discrimination.

But the Idea that this letter is origin of Holocaust hoax is just wrong.
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.

athenarena
Member
Member
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:32 pm

Re: Chief Rabbi of Ireland tries to get h-myth going, in 193

Postby athenarena » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:56 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:
To AthenaArena: I never said Jews pulled weight inside Ireland. But they perhaps pulled weight on the Irish political independence issue on a global opinion level, perhaps far more than anyone in Ireland. Similarly they played a role hundreds of years earlier in the Protestant/Catholic conflict. Similarly Jewish opinion regarding Kosovo 10 or so years ago, was probably a bigger factor than anyone in Kosovo. I'm aware that the Jewish demographic in Ireland is nil, that the Jewish influence on the inner workings of the Irish government is nil.


You said and I quoted it at the beginning of my post.
Possibly he wanted a payback favor for Jews supporting Irish Independence.


That implies what I went on to contradict. The Jews were not going to get anything out of the Irish government especially on the topic and would not have tried especially with the Limerick boycott of 1904 or 1905. We could be anti-semitic as a country I will not deny that nor never will.

I am aware now that you did not mean to make it specify how I took it and I apologise for the misunderstanding but I stand by what I say.

Thank you! Kosovo is a Holocaust I forgot even though I had to research the topic extensively last year. Thank you for reminding me.

Hector wrote:
It looks pretty much like a 33 to me


That is the problem with such bad writing, it is interpetative. But I see 39 there. I enlarged it three times and opened it with Microsoft Photo Editor to be 100 percent sure before I posted.

Hector wrote:
The responsive German boycott of Jewish shops (in April) was to my knowledge the only measure against Jews at that stage. The National Socialists were still busy crushing the Communists.


I have to agree with that point above yours Ray Barren.

Ray Barren wrote:
Violence was expressed by SS and SA members against Jews after before and after Nazi rise to power. Dachau camp was established weeks before this letter was supposed to be written. There were laws passed stoping Jews from work in certain professional jobs before this letter. Those working in them were fired. Nazi boycotts of Jewish business before this letter. Much persecution. Jews were killed in the violence acts by Nazi followers. Not planned extermination but individual murder. The Rabbi is hearing scared but slight incorrect representations of 1933 Nazi Germany. Are all writings and letters and newscasts on 11 September event exact in correctness of detail as we see them a decade later?


Yes I know the SS and SA were going around beating up Jews and other "Non-Aryans". Heck Fianna Fail supporters did that to Cummann na nGaedhael (now Fianna Gael) when Fianna Fail was elected here in Ireland during the 1930s because they knew they could get away with it. Same mindframe here.

The only laws that really took away Jewish rights completely were the 1935 Nuremburg Laws which I know are not the ones you mentioned.

As for Dachau, set up in 22 March 1933, it was originally for political prisoners not Jewish prisoners at the time. There was much persecution but there also was much fleeing. Out of 500,000 maybe 1 percent of the German populations tens of thousands of those would flee in the coming months and years.

As for the Rabbi hearing slightly incorrect representations, I agree totally with you. When England fell into Civil War between Parliament and King Charles, the Irish Nationalists in the North of Ireland, Ulster, rose up, attacked and killed several Protestant to try and reclaim the land. The modern estimate taking into account actual population and the ratio of Catholic Protestant in the country puts the number dead by 2000. By the time those who fled Ulster got back to England, the number stood at 200,000 a number completely impossible because a) Ireland only had a population of 1 million and b) Protestants were about 5% of the population. However, their stories lead to when Oliver Cromwell landed in Drogheda, he killed upward of 2000 people. So yes, that emotion I can totally understand and everybody learns an interesting and bloody fact about Ireland.

NSNO,
Athenarena


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 17 guests