My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

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athenarena
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My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

Postby athenarena » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:54 pm)

Many of you have noticed in my threads when I mention my reasons, I tend to shy one away from the rest of you. However, Mod3 and Hannover are right. I need to bring this one out. I need to share it. Please discuss the credibility of it all you want.

As you also know I am 17. Three years ago this October, my father died from cancer of the bile duct. It is a highly rare and always terminal illness. One dies of it similar to one dying of starvation, the way it corrodes the body. I suspect it will never be cured, too rare, no reason for money to go into research. That is why I set this thread aside. I mentioned it in bad news... but goethe responded and I do want to live by the rules here. So I am re-copying and pasting it here so that if it wants to be discussed it can be without going off topic.

I watched my father die in a similar way to how those who died of hunger starvation and overwork in those concentration camps for ten months at the age of 14. The skin pallor changing, the dramatic weight loss, the quenching of the spark of the soul, the fighting to survive even though death is inevitable, knowing you cannot do anything and still watch it, the slow death from the inside out.

Because of that, I cannot believe that someone would make up a story with that in it and not feel emotional guilt and pain of inflicting that on other people. So that is the personal reason why I believe the stories of the Holocaust survivors. Because of that, I believe in the fundamental belief that the Holocaust happened. I have doubts about certain things, yes but I do not doubt it happened.

You watch a parent being led out from your house on death's doorstep to go to the hospital and know you will never see them again or know that nobody will ever find a cure for what killed him because not enough suffer from that disease and tell me if you can listen to those stories and not believe them? So there, that is my personal reason. Does that give me credibility?


Thank you,
NSNO,
Athenarena.

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Re: My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

Postby Jazz » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:11 am)

I don't think it was the Germans fault that people in concentration camps died from starvation. There was a food shortage because Germany was being bombarded by Allied air attacks. My own father died from pancreatic cancer so I know what it's like to watch someone you love deteriorate infront of you. I'm sorry for your loss... but if people want to take advantage of something for their own benefit, they will.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL1Ugr8SaN8[/youtube]

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Re: My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:32 am)

Atharena:

I am deeply sorry for what your father, and you, had to suffer; please accept my sincere sympathy. But you know as well as I do that your personal experiences have nothing to do with the historiography of events that took place many years before you were born. You are using the same kind of emotional manipulation as survivors do. That was not intended to be hurtful and I apologise if it was, but the point is valid and has to be made.

Mainstream scholars, including Raul Hilberg, J-C Pressac ("Le dossier est pourri") and a former director of Yad Veshem have lamented the poor quality of survivor testimony. And when we reflect on it, this should not surprise us. We have to look at the sources of the evidence. I am not a scholar or an expert, so I can only speak in general terms, but others whose knowledge is more detailed can fill in the gaps.

-- The first witness testimony came from a miniscule number of survivors of the Reinhard camps, and reached the world via the Soviet propaganda machine in the persons of Ilya Ehrenburg and Vassilii Grossman. It was internally and mutually contradictory, and contained many claims, such as steam chambers and electric floors, or three million dead at Treblinka alone, that were quickly forgotten. In other words, testimony was cherry-picked even at that early stage. This continued into the Nuremberg trials and into the later trials in Germany, where many if not all witnesses were under Soviet or Polish Communist control.

-- Once a certain story is in the public domain, the validity of further similar stories is suspect. They may provide genuine confirmation, but they may also be derivative. This does not necessarily mean they are lies, but people adjust their memories of events in the light of what others say they remember, and they may think they witnessed something that in reality they only heard about. In Auschwitz rumours must have been rife, and the Communists deliberately spread them.

-- The more times something is repeated the more distortion occurs as we tend to remember not the actual event, but our last recounting of it. (Douglas Adams famously wrote that the idea for The Hitch-hiker's Guide to The Galaxy came to him when lying in a field one night under the open sky reading The Hitch-hiker's Guide to Europe. In later life he was asked if this was true and he replied that he was not sure because when he told the story all he could recall was the last time he told it. But this anecdote is confirmed by present-day psychological research. The "illusion of memory" is a major topic in The Invisible Gorilla, a popularising work, but based on the researches of two Harvard psychologists.)

-- Witnesses were not only allowed to confer, but actually encouraged and enabled to do so. Much of the evidence came from survivors' associations based in Communist Poland. You can imagine the peer pressure and the "suggestions" of the minders.

-- Particularly suspect are stories which are told for the first time many years after the events. Angel at the Fence is only only one of of several total fabrications. Other accounts may be based on real experiences but vary hugely in their accuracy. Motivation may be claimed to be "to tell it as it was" but can also be money and attention.

-- The accuracy of memory is particularly poor in conditions of high physical and emotional stress. In these cases the stresses included typhus. Not everyone dies from typhus. Many survive. But the disease causes hallucinations.

-- Being a survivor brought entitlement to compensation payments.

I think we have above enough reasons not to take all survivor accounts on trust. But the starvation, disease and exhaustion are not "the Holocaust" and are not in dispute. It is the supporters of the conventional narrative who try to discredit Revisionism by suggesting that they are. Revisionism says:
-- There is no evidence for a poiicy of extermination.
-- The six million figure is unsupported by evidence and is probably a considerable exaggeration of losses.

Even the gas chambers are peripheral. If incontrovertible evidence of some murders by gas were presented, that would not prove a policy or mass murder.

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Re: My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

Postby athenarena » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:13 am)

Thank you truly Jazz and Kingfisher for your sympathies. It was not hurtful what you said at all Kingfisher.

Thanks for the link Jazz! I will make sure to watch it. I am sorry about your father Jazz. My thoughts are with you.

Kingfisher wrote:Atharena:

-- The first witness testimony came from a miniscule number of survivors of the Reinhard camps, and reached the world via the Soviet propaganda machine in the persons of Ilya Ehrenburg and Vassilii Grossman. It was internally and mutually contradictory, and contained many claims, such as steam chambers and electric floors, or three million dead at Treblinka alone, that were quickly forgotten. In other words, testimony was cherry-picked even at that early stage. This continued into the Nuremberg trials and into the later trials in Germany, where many if not all witnesses were under Soviet or Polish Communist control.


I would say I am surprised but I am not. It often happens especially in such high profile cases. Thank you for your points, they are all wonderful but it would take too long to answer them all. I can understand your point of view perfectly and thank you for your clarity. Diseases such as dysentry and typhus were rampant in a lot of stories and a lot of what those in the ghettos were hearing was rumour, I admit that. I do understand how time and emotion warps the memories and the effects of the disease, I understand that. Thank you Kingfisher

I am glad that I opened up and shared my last reason for why I believe. It was never meant as emotional blackmail, I am not Alexander the Great. However, it was empathy I am sure that caused me to put the two together when you are right Kingfisher, they are not linked at all. There are similarities yes, several similarities between the cancer and death by starvation but no linkage between world war 2 and an event in 2007.
NSNO,
Athenarena

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Re: My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

Postby Cloud » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:08 pm)

Fred Leuchter once said that "a fact is a fact." To continue believing in something that is not in the least supported by facts is just plain stupid.

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Re: My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

Postby athenarena » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:37 pm)

Cloud wrote:Fred Leuchter once said that "a fact is a fact." To continue believing in something that is not in the least supported by facts is just plain stupid.


A fact is a fact but the truth is often a perception no? Have you ever suffered watching someone die of cancer? Emotion is stronger often than logic and it was that emotion that the death of my father sparked in me to believe the survivors' stories. We are not all governed by logic at one time. I have other reasons but Cloud if you have seen my arguments I have also only said "and a personal reason."

I felt after talking to others not to retain that reason and let it out. I take no offence from what you say. I do not take it personally.
NSNO,
Athenarena

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Re: My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

Postby Barrington James » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:50 pm)

I submit the following for those of you who still believe in the gassing of six million in the Nazi interment camps rather than in death by disease and starvation.

As I stated several years ago on this site , Ben Shephard, in his book “After Daybreak”, the story of the British take over of Bergen –Belsen, has documented proof that at least 14, 000 Internees died in the camp after its liberation. You also might recall that the Germans had handed the camp over to the British; they had not fought over it. The Germans thought it best to do so as they could not stop the dying in the camp, nor could they release the sick to infest the rest of Europe with diseased internees.

However, despite the fact that the British had food, medicine, clean water , DDT ( to kill the typhus lice), and sanitation, supplies the Nazis did not have, the number of deaths in the camp actually went up under british control for several weeks after liberation, reaching a peak number of 1, 700 on April 23, over a week after liberation, and it took at least six weeks for the Brits to stop the dying. Shephard also claims the biggest problem in the camp was starvation, not disease. It was also extremely difficult to stop the death by starvation once an internee had passed a certain point of no return regardless of the food then available. Small wonder we have seen so many pictures of British soldiers burying the dead at Bergen-Belsen, for, as said, at least 14, 000 internees died in British hands.

To further point out the problem with no food and how dreadful starvation can be, I would like to note that after WW1, after the so called armistice, when the British blockaded Germany in order to force Germany to sign the treaty of Versailles, hundreds of thousands of Germans starved to death.

Furthermore, the British under Churchill redirected the food from Bombay, India to Great Britain during WW2 (they thought they might need the food themselves) and consequently 3, 000, 000 Indians died in Bombay.

I mention all this because some people today just can’t seem to understand the great dangers of starvation and disease in camps in the Nazi Internment camps of Germany, in the Eisenhower death camps throughout Europe in which hundreds of thousands of German boys and men starved to death after the war, in the prisoner of war camps during the American civil war in which tens of thousands of soldiers died, or in the present day refuge camps in Haiti. These same “believers in the holocaust”, just have no idea of the dangers of disease and starvation and immediately think “gas” and murder, when the explanations of the deaths in the camps are actually so easy to understand and now that we finally have the Nazi records from the USSR, "so well documented".
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Re: My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

Postby proxyserver » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:09 am)

As you also know I am 17. Three years ago this October, my father died from cancer of the bile duct. It is a highly rare and always terminal illness. One dies of it similar to one dying of starvation, the way it corrodes the body. I suspect it will never be cured, too rare, no reason for money to go into research. That is why I set this thread aside. I mentioned it in bad news... but goethe responded and I do want to live by the rules here. So I am re-copying and pasting it here so that if it wants to be discussed it can be without going off topic.


Athenarena, there seems to be a misconception on your part about what exactly is the "Holocaust", possibly due to your young age. What revisionists and "exterminationists" understand by the term is that approximately 6 million Jews were deliberately killed by means of gassing and mass shootings, or placed in situtions where they would die of disease and starvation. What you seem to be concerned about were the conditions in the concentration camps that did indeed cause many to die of disease, primarily because of overwork and maturity of years, and that could perhaps be defined as the "Holocaust", but that is not the way that the term is used in terms of the question of whether there was a deliberate extermination program on the part of the Germans, and this is very important. You might say that why then did they put Jews into concentration camps if it meant they would die of diseases, even if it only affected a minority. Well, the fact is that the Nazis conceived the Jews, in terms of their racialist ideology, as inherent enemies of the Third Reich (particularly after the experience of World War One, when Leftist Jews were mainly resposible for betraying the soldiers at the Front), and so it was necessary to place most of them in concentration camps, where they would be either slave labour, or left to vegetate. Of course, the aims of the third Reich were thwarted in Russia where they faced defeat at the hands of the Red Army, as they simply took on too much by attacking Russian totalitarian Communism, and this is where the problems of the concentration camp inmates mostly started, as it was planned they would all be moved to Soviet Asia with a German victory, instead they all had to be moved from the Polish camps to Germany (which is further proof that there was no extermination policy) and conditions were very harsh then for the inmates since the Germans were losing and so they could not concentrate enough resources to keep all of them alive. Thus, what you believe, athenarena, is quite reasonable, if you define the term "Holocaust" in the minor sense that you use it; but it is important to define the "Holocaust" in terms of a deliberate extermination policy, which is very important in relation to the present-day state of Israel, which is supposed to be a haven for Jews from the threat of extermination, but which will probably lead to a nuclear war with the Arabs and Muslins.

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Re: My personal reason why I believe in the Holocaust.

Postby athenarena » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:57 pm)

Barrington Jones. I believe it in the way you believe it. Death by disease and starvation. I am murky over the gas chambers.

Proxyserver, my age does inhibit me a good bit seeing as my worldy experience is narrow. I will take what you have said into consideration. I see the "Holocaust" as policies of the Nazi Third Reich that led to deportion, starvation, disease and overworking. Gassing I am staying neutral for now as I am not entirely sure about it. But thank you for your point.

However, on topic my emotions from my father's death led me to empathise with the survivors believing their stories without questioning them at all which is not logical or analytical at all.

NSNO,
Athenarena.


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