The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

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Cloud
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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Cloud » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:18 pm)

holocaust believer wrote:That's because most of the gassing victims had their bodies cremated or buried in mass graves immediately after death you dumbass!

There are mass graves of gassing victims? Where?

Plus, you said "most" and not "all." So where are the ones that were not cremated nor buried?

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:49 pm)

Drew J wrote:If these so called crematoria were burning up as much a day and for as many days as they claim, the brick and mortar chimneys would have fallen apart. The crematoria was for dead bodies to prevent the spread of typhus. That's why heads were shaved and that's why mattresses and clothes were put in disinfestation chambers which some probably mistook for gas chambers. The allies certainly did when they saw this door.


Why do you say the brick would have fallen apart? On 8 September 1942 the 5 triple Topf crematory ovens were projected to cremate 800 bodies every day by engineer Prufer who helped build those ovens. I trust his opinion more than yours. See this link for the document:
http://holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/

There were 2 sets of 5 triple ovens which means 1600 bodies in a day could be cremated in just two crematories. In same document Prufer also says that two more ovens are ordered with 8 ovens which can burn 800 bodies each. 3200 bodies every day total for the four sets of cremation ovens by the person who built them. Did 3200 people die everyday from typhus in Auschwitz?
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Drew J » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:15 am)

nevermind. I thought I heard that somewhere. I guess not. I think I was confusing two things I read recently. Leuchter's samples from brick and mortar chimneys and the original alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz were falling apart due to age.

By the way, what do you have to say about the links I posted for that poster's mom? Any return swings on your part regarding the kol nidre as explained by me in my WHY THEY CHOSE THE NUMBER SIX thread and its re-institution in 1945?

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Drew J » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:22 am)

Your talk about Prufer took me here.
http://www.zundelsite.org/old_zundelsit ... h8000.html
8.008 "Vergassungskeller" slip by S.S. Captain Bishoff. In a letter dated 29 January 1943, S.S. Captain Bishoff, then head of the Auschwitz Bauleitung, in a letter to headquarters discusses the construction progress of Krema II. It being winter, the cement work was delayed because of the cold and the concrete forms could not be removed from one of the Leichenkeller ceilings on schedule. He does not identify the Leichenkeller, but because of an additional construction report (29 January 1943) written by Kurt Prufer, engineer for Topf and Son, it is most likely that he (Bishoff) was talking about Leichenkeller 2. Bishoff says, "Because of the frost, it has not yet been possible to remove the formwork from the ceiling of the corpse cellar.
This is of no consequence, however, as the 'Vergassungskeller' carburetion cellar can be used to this end" (morgue). Mr. Pressac, again incorrectly translates the word "Vergassungskeller" (carburetion cellar) as gassing cellar, which Pressac assumes to be Leichenkeller 1, the alleged gas chamber. It is unclear by the text exactly what Bishoff is saying, but he most likely means the furnace room. In the furnace room are the five secondary blowers (pulsed air) which mix air with the combusted gasses in the furnace. This carburetion process controls the air/gas mix in the crematory furnaces. Since it is winter, Bishoff does not want the corpses to freeze and temporary placement in the furnace room, which is heating only to dry the brick and mortar, and not cremating corpses, will prevent this.
8.009 Proof #1. Again, a little thought in a technical translation will prevent major misconceptions.
8.010 10 Gasprufer. On 26 February 1943 S.S. Lieutenant Pollok sent an urgent telegram to Topf and Son reading as follows: "Please send 10 gas testers ("Gasprufer") that we spoke about before. Quote price later." Mr. Pressac translates "Gasprufer" (again, a technical term, incorrectly as gas detectors. There is a major distinction. Gas Detectors are utilized for testing gas (leakage etc.). Gas testers are used to determine the amount (quantity) of gas present. telegram would have read "Gasentdecker" if detectors were wanted.


You scroll on down, and it mentions Bischoff. That has already been exposed to death as a joke when Hans on rodoh years ago first tried that crap. I will give a link to it.
viewtopic.php?p=38292&#p38292
More phony translations in order to promote a hoax story.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Hannover » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:41 pm)

was quoted:
Holocaust deniers like you love to cite the fact that there was never a blatant, unquestionable order written or signed by Adolf Hitler that specifically ordered the death of the jewish populations of europe. However, very few nazi documents used such obvious terms as "murder" or "death" when addressing their actions. Almost always the spoke and wrote with suggestive phrases such as "the final solution to the jewish question" rather than "the destruction of the jewish people. That's because most of the gassing victims had their bodies cremated or buried in mass graves immediately after death you dumbass!!! You don't understand the differences between everyday civilian crematoria and military industrial crematoria. The Auschwitz furnaces were designed to run continously using the heat energy produced by the burning of previous bodies to keep the oven hot for the next bodies. After they were fired with coke to their proper operating temperature at the beginning of the day, the furnaces required little or no extra fuel to operate. This is a technical achievement that is well documented. The furnaces at Auschwitz were massive and were capable of disposing of several bodies per muffle in half an hour or so, and they could run for days at a time without maintenance.

This massively ignorant rant is utterly demolished in the 1st 'sticky' thread of this forum:
'Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz '
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

It's lengthy, but crushing to the nonsense that is part & parcel to the fraud. I recommend this thread to all.

In fact, reluctant Believers, as discussed in this thread, would be in denial of science if they still cling to the religious mythology of the absurd 'holocaust' after reading it in it's entirety.

This is too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Jazz » 8 years 10 months ago (Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:02 am)

Hannover wrote:This massively ignorant rant is utterly demolished in the 1st 'sticky' thread of this forum:
'Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz '
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

It's lengthy, but crushing to the nonsense that is part & parcel to the fraud. I recommend this thread to all.

In fact, reluctant Believers, as discussed in this thread, would be in denial of science if they still cling to the religious mythology of the absurd 'holocaust' after reading it in it's entirety.

This is too easy.

- Hannover


Thank youuuuu :)

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby six gun » 7 years 8 months ago (Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:38 pm)

I have mentioned revisionism on forums.
Immediately there is a wall of hate and criticism.
The remainder steer clear.
You get called racist and you run the risk of a ban.

It really doesn't matter how many times you explain there is no racist motive, there will be a screamer you are racist.
Someone says they saw a chilling documentary on the TV so it must be true.

I think that sums up.
I could not careless if it happened or not - it is what is true that matters.
My issue is not whether it happened or not, it is the way it is being exploited.

It is very depressing really and I don't see how to get round it.
I must admit before I happened across the evidence which contradict the traditional account, I would have felt the same way.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Breker » 7 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:18 pm)

But all those points you make are losing credibility. The 'racist' label is applied to anything that the Jewish dominated media do not like. And if anyone doubts who dominates the media, well, those doubters merely have to read what Jews have openly admitted. The entire 'racist' epithet is rather like 'crying wolf'. It's becoming a yawner.
B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Breker » 7 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:12 pm)

Breker wrote:But all those points you make are losing credibility. The 'racist' label is applied to anything that the Jewish dominated media do not like. And if anyone doubts who dominates the media, well, those doubters merely have to read what Jews have openly admitted. The entire 'racist' epithet is rather like 'crying wolf'. It's becoming a yawner.B.

Example of loss of impact.

Image
Thread started here:
propaganda credibilty loss / Marines pose with SS runes
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6845
B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:02 am)

The shortest way(s) in my opinion to help believers understand our skepticism are...

1. Document forgeries of which there are many
2. Exposing false witnesses like in the first Zundel trial or the first Demjanjuk trial that even israel had to let him go on.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby jeffersonian » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:22 am)

When called a racist, consider following the White Rabbit: whiterabbitradio.net

The epithet is used as shut-up language, and has no legitimacy. They only think we're racist, and only say it because we're white.

I think the most effective way to get someone started is to suggest to them just one, hard scientific contradiction. From there, get them to look at good documentary material, such as denierbud's work.

The real problems are that we don't like to be public, and that the whole problem is rooted in so many aspects of our world today that it is a real eye-opener to see (finally) all the directions in which we are manipulated. So for example, we can debate these things with people, but then everyone's going to say, Hey guess who is a Holocaust denier!!! You want that at school? At work? It's a risk. So what you can do is just say that you have questions. Why aren't there millions of teeth around the 'death camps', easily found by excavation/core samples? Or, how did they get bodies to burn in the open air? Or you can say, isn't it interesting that the death count for Auschwitz dropped from 4.5 to 1.5 million. Or the way it turned out that there wasn't soap-from-fat after all, despite the 'funerals' held for it. Or you can talk about how the media fanned atrocity stories in World War One.

I like the one-hard-fact method. Get a nagging curiosity in their mind. Remind them of other things they're probably skeptical about. JFK's magic bullet, Gulf of Tonkin, weapons of mass destruction never found, etc.

I have gotten people to see the denierbud documentaries, and they still can't resist the siren call of the Holocaust. It's a hard slog. There is so much comfort in believing that somehow the world as we know it makes sense. It puts someone all at sea to think that so much could be awry from so many directions.

Maybe the best thing is for them to know you, that you doubt it, and that you are otherwise a sound person. Then they can ponder things slowly. Converting people in the style of a religion may not be the best model.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Random » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:34 am)

Have them watch the David Cole video or Denier Bud's 'One Third of the Holocaust'. Eric Hunt's The Last Days is good, but a bit too emotionally charged. The former two is how I ended up here.

Someone who is close minded and just doesn't want to know is a total waste of time and energy. You could show some people the most blatant evidence of fraud or misrepresentation and they'll still refuse to believe it.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Werd » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:11 pm)

I completely forgot about the David Cole video for a second. Yes. Have them watch a revisoinist video made by a Jew. And then read the testimony of Joseph Burg at the first Zundel trial, also a Jew.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Zulu » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:38 pm)

Cloud wrote:Ask her how they were able to pack so many Jews (some say over a thousand at once) so tightly into the "gas chambers" without having to physically restrain anyone (there is no mention of chains, ropes, handcuffs, etc. in the testimonies). If she replies, "they were tricked because they thought they were going to take a bath,"

I am afraid that the "right screenplay" of "massive gassings" by shower deception was written AFTER the war by mixing numerous versions available in order to obtain a minimum of technical credibility at the end...However, the former assertion of "lethal gas coming from shower heads instead of water" is nowadays generally dropped despite the 2 only testimonies of "gassing operations" on the Yad Vashem site still mention it.

That is why at Nuremberg, thus before the establishment of a "right screenplay", we have several incredible versions accordingly with the the fantasy of the tellers including the way "gassing operations" were carried out in the underground rooms of the Kremas at Auschwitz accordingly with the Russian prosecutor Rudenko who quoted a report supposedly coming from the recites of "several thousands former internees at Auschwitz".
GENERAL R. A. RUDENKO
...
I will now quote an extract of the appeal to the public opinion of the world from the representatives of several thousands former internees at Auschwitz:

"The gassing of unbelievable numbers of people took place upon the arrival of transports from various countries: France, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Italy, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Poland, the U.S.S.R., Norway, and others. The new arrivals had to pass before an SS doctor or else before the SS commandant of the camp. The latter pointed his finger to the right or left. The left meant death by gas. Out of a transport of 1,500, an average of 1,200 to 1,300 were immediately to be gassed. Rarely the quota of people sent into the camp was a little higher. It often occurred that the SS doctors Mengele and Thilo performed this selection while whistling a lively tune. The people destined to be gassed were obliged to strip in front of the gas-chambers, after which they were driven with whips into the gas-chambers. Then the door of the underground gas-chamber was closed, and the people were gassed. Death occurred approximately 4 minutes later. After 8 minutes the gas chamber was opened, and workmen belonging to a special commando, the so-called Sonderkommando, transported the bodies to the cremation ovens which burned day and night.

"There was a shortage of ovens at the time of the arrival of transports from Hungary; consequently enormous ditches were dug for the purpose of cremating the bodies. Fires made of wood soaked in gasoline were laid in these ditches and the bodies were thrown into them. However, the SS men frequently hurled live children and adults into those ditches, where these unhappy victims died a terrible death. To save gasoline, the fats and oils necessary for cremations were partly derived from the bodies of gassed people. Fats and oils for technical purposes and for the manufacture of soap were also obtained from the corpses.

Source: Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Vol. 7, p 174 & 175.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-08-46.asp

Assuming that such scenes happened at Krema II or III - because "underground gas-chambers" are namely mentioned - that "version" doesn't tell anything about a supposed "undressing room" or about "fake showers" for making victims enter into the "murder rooms". According to those numerous eyewitnesses, the victims stripped "in front of the gas chamber" - it is difficult to figure out where actually because there was only a little vestibule "in front" of Leichenkeller 2 - and whips were used to drive them towards the "gas chamber". Moreover, the 12 minutes total time mentioned for those "gassing operations", including 4 for killing and 8 for ventilating, is quite the record of all tales for "gassing operations". Incredibly, the "right screenplay", that means the new version corrected in order to provide more credible post war gassing tales, contradicts blatantly several thousands of supposed eyewitnesses quoted by Rudenko at the IMT.

Now, the modern version of the gassing tales includes the criminal traces alleged by Pressac at Krema II and III like the 1 m width Gas-tight door as unique entrance (and exit) at the murder room and 14 false shower heads for deceiving the victims.

Let us try to imagine the scene for gassing 2000 jews at that local though the modern tales can also allege 2500 or 3000. Let us suppose 1000 victims have entered into the gas chamber equipped with the 14 dummy showers of Pressac, that means 1 shower per 71 people. OK. Don't you think that these people are able to realize soon enough that there is something wrong in their shower time and then enter immediately in panic?
In such case, how are supposed to react the 1000 remaining people at the door outside? Then, in such chaos how would 2, 3 SS or whatever manage for making enter through a 1 meter width door 1000 people in panic outside while 1000 are in panic inside?
By reading the plan of the building, where were supposed to be placed those SS to control such chaotic situation?
Show your mother the door of your bathroom and make her imagine that scene. 2000 people would have passed through it without problem as they say...
Moreover 2000, 2500 or 3000 were supposed to be gassed into a 240 m2 room (not discounting 7 concreted columns and 4 wire mesh columns). That means a density of 8.33, 10.41 or 12.5 persons per square meter.
Now, calculate with the area of your bathroom the corresponding number of people such density represents.
Example: if your bathroom is of 2m x 4 m or 8 m2, that means that 66, 83 or 100 can be deceived with 1 false shower head - actually less, 14 for 2000 means 1 shower head per 142 people - in order to enter calmly into that 8 m2 room by the same door you have!
Eventually try with the main room and make your own calculation in order to tell the results to your mom.

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Re: The shortest way to help holocaust believers understand?

Postby Wings » 7 years 8 months ago (Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:27 am)

I have only tried this ( ie: explaining some of the basics to a 'Holocaust Believer' - and, apparently virtually everyone I may encounter anywhere IS a 'believer',) three times, and each occasion was a disaster.

Each came about incidentally, and, with people I have known for years.


In one instance the person looked at me as if they thought I must be insane...even to where they were backing away from me as if I might grab an Axe any moment or something, the other two instances, the person instantly got very, VERY Angry and insulting, and started calling me derogatory names, and acting out enraged, slamming things, and very upset.


No rational conversation was possible.


I have had two instances where a conversation happened to have been brought by another person ( in each case, someone I had known for some time, and, who I thought were intelligent people) ...where they happened to have mentioned something about 'The Holocaust', the 'Gas Chambers' or Crematoria or something, and, I adroitly, carefully, sincerely, mentioned that I have studied some detail or other which indicates to me, that the feature in question, never happened, and, in these two instances, the person simply got quiet, things sort of stalled there, and, they never spoke to me again.


So, as far as my own experience, I have found no encouragement or success in trying to discuss the 'Holocaust' with anybody.


Apparently, few people are capable of permitting the topic to enjoy any rational guideline, and, or, relatively few people have much rationality for themselves, to apply to any subject matter, regardles of what it is.



I


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