Population Statistics/Demographics

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ovd1965
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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:56 pm)

"The same could be said for all territory within German control. Jewish populations were registered immediately upon occupation, in most cases."

If we take , what is left in archives , than it would often contradict Korherrs numbers. Shortly after occupying an area in SU , Wehrmachts reports gave
numbers of jewish populations , and often they are very astonished to find only 10 or 20% of the expected numbers.

I do not believe , that they have an idea , how many jews fled from german occupied poland in to soviet occupied russian territory, perhaps estimates.

"That's why Eichmann testified about the Protocol, i.e., what was actually discussed vs. what ended up in the report that he wrote."

many participants of the conference say (like Korherr) that there was no intention / decisions of murder. And many were never on trial for the
participation at this conference.


"nothing was decided at Wannsee because it had already been determined beforehand. Thus Wannsee was only an informational meeting and not a meeting convened to make decisions."

only a little brunch ? for nothing , but saying what always is in progress ? And this "informal meeting" is worth an own museum ?
reading some of the following correspondence from various departements over the following month , I must realize , that the conference left only confusion among the participants.

not to forget the discussion about the many "faux pas" of the known copies. (numbers,missing signing,rubberstamp,type writer etc)

"Jews from French-controlled North Africa."

Algeria+Morocco = 270,000 (AJY)

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby The Warden » 8 years 9 months ago (Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:39 pm)

I had to use the Google translator, but there's all sorts of numbers in Sanning's work:
http://www.vho.org/F/b/ld/chapitre1.html
(8 chapters)


I'm just posting them here to show another variance.
Also, the list of sources is interesting to read.
I'll use the search function for threads on Sanning, as I'm sure it's been discussed many times.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:18 am)

The Warden wrote:I had to use the Google translator, but there's all sorts of numbers in Sanning's work:
http://www.vho.org/F/b/ld/chapitre1.html
(8 chapters)


I'm just posting them here to show another variance.
Also, the list of sources is interesting to read.
I'll use the search function for threads on Sanning, as I'm sure it's been discussed many times.


The Warden,

I would not rely too much on Sanning's work, as it flawed by loads of misleading assumption, notably concerning the Jewish immigration to the USA during the 30's, which flirts with complete non sense at times.
the conclusion is about the same, it is easy to get lost in speculation in the demographic field.
Another things is that regarding to the Holocaust, there is a tendency on both side (i regret to say that is more common among Revisionsit) to use the sources selectively to "prove" something that appeared to be unprovable under academic standards.
Sanning in this regard commits the very same "error" that most revisionists accuse the "Hoaxter" to do.

A first example, Sanning madkes no mention of the 1936 survey organized in Poland...which at least should be quoted when pretending to analyse the growth of Jewish population in Poland. (the survey was ordered by an Antisemite government, btw)

Just a second example, in chapter 7 : (the link you provided is in french, so translation is mine)
Sanning points out descprepencies between the data regarding the number of Jews in the US : 4081242 in 1926 and 4641184 in 1936, based on communities with a Sinagogue. Fine (1)
then he quotes a study done on a broader base reaching 4,228,029 in 1927 and 4,770,647 in 1937...but those data come from two different sources!

So he rightly conclude that " On ne peut dire exactement quelle part l'immigration et quelle part l'accroissement naturel ont dans cet accroissement de 543,000 sur dix ans" ( ONE CANNOT SAY EXACTLY WHICH PART OF THE GROWTH COMES FROM IMMIGRATION AND WICH PART COME FROM NATURAL GROWTH"
So if Sanning is honnest in this sentence, the rest of his arguments is only guessing, assumptions and suppositions.

And to go back to point (1)...other explanations could and should be included in those assumptions and suppositions
- More Synagogue could have been build, so more communities could have been included is one example
- As Census is always based on free declarations of faith, it also could be that more jews declared themself to be Jews in a form of Sympathy to the faith of eastern european Jews (German included)?
Again, i insist on the fact that those are like the rest suppositions.

If he wanted to be scientific, he would have had to give explanations about the sources used for the countings above!

he continues in admiting that natural growth could have brought the Jewish population to 4,444,000 in 1937. Of course, for the sake of his goals, he will compare the number with the highest number at his disposal (the 4.77, not the 4.6, to an immidiate gain of 113.000 suspects) an economy useful in regard to the 82.212 Jews that were granted a Visa during the period.

I could go on, especially regarding the immigration to France and Belgium...which has its own history and a complex one...Complicated by the fact that Poland used to lease its workers to both countries from 1920 to 35...for term contract that could be renewed...As a matter of fact, a great number of Jews that were present in both countries were Polish...and most of them would be later deported anyway...

Another fact is that his only goal is to prove that Jews were not killed but escaped somewhere, somehow...at a time were mobility were quite restricted...

My conlcusion, is he prooves nothing by using the descrpencies between the statistics, other that the fact that one can conclude any bullshits out of them.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:36 am)

"My conlcusion, is he prooves nothing by using the descrpencies between the statistics, other that the fact that one can conclude any bullshits out of them."

that suggest that Reitlingers work must have same "problems" and must be no more or less reliable as Sannings.

It seems to me , that Reitlinger tend to use numbers fitting in "is view". (select the highest prewar and lowest post war number he can find)

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Petschau » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:23 pm)

Here is another avenue of research that can be investigated re: demographics and population movements.
This is an excerpt from Butz' "Hoax Of The Twentieth Century".
Chapter 7:
The Final Solution


The first relevant events involving Polish Jews were due to Russian, rather than German measures. Germany and Russia partitioned Poland in 1939, the eastern half and thus a large portion of the Polish Jews thereby coming under Soviet rule. These Jews were the objects of a Russian resettlement program whose broad features have been described by Korzen in an article published by the Israeli Government. Korzen's article is of some importance to the matters treated in this chapter.[383]

Briefly, what happened is that "hundreds of thousands" of these Jews were dispersed throughout the Soviet Union in an evacuation program which commenced in June 1940. At first, many were sent to labor camps, but after September 1941, a serious effort was made "to convert the refugees into Soviet citizens and prevent their leaving the Soviet Union." The dispersion was as far as Central Asia and even to the Far East. Details are difficult to develop, and Korzen pleads for more interest in research into the matter. Many became Soviet citizens, some trekked back to Poland after the war and in may cases proceeded on to Israel. Korzen remarks that the Jews who remained in Poland as leaders of the new Communist regime were put under pressure "to change their names to purely Polish-sounding ones as well as to keep their Jewish origin secret". Some eventually arrived at places such as Persia and India via Shanghai. The Joint Distribution Committee of New York maintained contact with the refugees in the Soviet Union during the war and assisted their movements after the war.

It is also known that a large number of Jews, given by one source as 300,000, fled from western to eastern Poland in 1939 when the Nazis invaded the former.[384] Thus, a significant fraction, perhaps as many as a third, of the Polish Jews had been moved beyond reach of the Germans before the outbreak of war between Russia and Germany in June 1941.

Although there had been a limited German resettlement program earlier, notably for Vienna Jews, the Nazi resettlement program began with earnestness in the autumn of 1941. If Polish Jews are excluded but Romanian Jews included in our immediate considerations, we see that the Germans moved at most a million Jews to settlements or ghettos in the occupied East. From the locations that have been mentioned, we can get a fairly good idea of where these settlements were located: Riga - Minsk - Ukraine - Sea of Azov (north of the Black Sea) forms a connected and plausible line on a map.

While we have a good idea of where these settlements were, we know little else about them other than that they existed. As one should naturally expect, the Allied occupation destroyed the relevant German records and documents, so that only scraps survive that deal with the resettlement program in terms more specific than, say, the Luther memorandum (NG-2586-J reproduced above). Indeed, Steengracht's defense made a serious effort to produce such documents at Nuremberg, but the best it could do relative to the eastern camps was to submit two documents into evidence. The first, Steengracht 64,[385] is a letter from Eichmann, dated June 5, 1943, to the Foreign Office for the attention of Thadden. It concerns the Jewish camps in the east and some articles that had appeared in various European magazines concerning them. It appears that "fantastic rumors" in Slovakia concerning these camps were being given credence by some people there, and in addition to citing the magazine articles, Eichmann remarked:

[383] Yad Vashem Studies, vol. 3, 119-140.
[384] Kimche & Kimche, 63.
[385] Steengracht 64 in NMT, vol. 13, 300; NO-1247 cited by Reitlinger, 308, and quoted by Hilberg, 254. Steengracht 65 (or NO-1624) does not appear to be reproduced anywhere.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Cloud » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:39 pm)

Balsamo wrote:- More Synagogue could have been build, so more communities could have been included is one example
- As Census is always based on free declarations of faith, it also could be that more jews declared themself to be Jews in a form of Sympathy to the faith of eastern european Jews (German included)?

What definition of "Jew" do these data gathering organizations use? If they don't all agree on a definition, how can you draw any meaningful conclusions? If you consider Jews to be religious group only, you should not invoke sources that include Einstein as a Jew since he did not subscribe to a religion. Even the Jews themselves disagree on who is Jewish.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby The Warden » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:57 pm)

Balsamo, this thread is for a collection of population/demographic figures, not your emotional rants on how they're unreliable.
The whole point of this thread is to show exactly how unreliable they ALL are when compared.

Also, you were asked to produce the '21 and '31 Polish Census numbers which are extremely difficult to find for some reason.

You were also asked to produce a source for this statement:
Balsamo wrote:Another example, more related to the Holocaust is the fact that about two third of the Jews counted by the German in Belgium were Polish...In fact out of the 60.000 or so Jews present in Belgium, only 5000 were Belgian citizens.


You know the rules. Avoiding the thread for a few days and then re-entering doesn't make the request go away.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:38 pm)

The Warden,

All you have to do is to google "Polish Census 1921 and 1931".

I also referred to a discussion where i pointed out the differences between the data available on the net. Just use the search engine on rodoh and type "demographic". The title of the topic is "Toben reply to Meulhenkamp"

aNYWAY

Here is a link for the Polish census.
http://medlibrary.org/medwiki/Polish_ce ... 31#Results
the 1921 census is also available on the site

He is the post war estimation by the Anglo-American committee
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/angap03.asp

Another work was published by the institute of Jewish affairs here
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlesto ... =nuremberg

The 36 survey is quoted in "The Accuracy of the Registration of Births and Deaths" (Statistics, Series C. Pt. 41)" accoring to Bauer, 3.310.000 Jews were counted
http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/j ... -ENGL.html


Who you call "hoaxters" are quite aware of the difficulties to use those data, that is why estimations vary from 4.2 millions to over 6 millions...(which by the way shows that the 6.000.000 number is not a sacred cow appart in public opinion). So there is no unanimity among them. the only information that those data can give is to show the magnitude of the demographic shake up that took place during WW2, and yes the magnitude of what happened to the Jews in this very zone.

Sanning, on the contrary, wanted to proove that 100.000 Polish Jews could have emigrated each year in the thirties. And to do so, he is being dishonnest by forgeting the 1936 polish survey which is embarrassing to his thesis and by forgetting to define and explain how the different census were organized. As you posted Sanning book, i don't think that this simple obeservation on his methods is OT.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Moderator3 » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:48 pm)

The Warden wrote:Balsamo, this thread is for a collection of population/demographic figures, not your emotional rants on how they're unreliable.
The whole point of this thread is to show exactly how unreliable they ALL are when compared.

Also, you were asked to produce the '21 and '31 Polish Census numbers which are extremely difficult to find for some reason.

You were also asked to produce a source for this statement:
Balsamo wrote:Another example, more related to the Holocaust is the fact that about two third of the Jews counted by the German in Belgium were Polish...In fact out of the 60.000 or so Jews present in Belgium, only 5000 were Belgian citizens.


You know the rules. Avoiding the thread for a few days and then re-entering doesn't make the request go away.

Forum moderation has always insisted that challenges be responded to, specifically. Those who will not or cannot respond must leave the thread. Continuous non-response can be grounds for dismissal. This forum is the perfect opportunity for those of you that believe in the "Holocaust" to make your case. So what are you waiting for?
We assume some folks just aren't used to being called on their claims.
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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:12 pm)

Sorry Moderator

I did not know that the Polish census were that hard to find on the net...Anyway, i gave the links in my previous post.

Another example, more related to the Holocaust is the fact that about two third of the Jews counted by the German in Belgium were Polish...In fact out of the 60.000 or so Jews present in Belgium, only 5000 were Belgian citizens.


I admit, i forgot this one...
Here is the link

http://www.cicb.be/fr/home_fr.htm

It is in French...
But i did refere to my posting on rodoh and gave the subject of the topic where i used this information (which are the right one) which differs from the numbers given by the Anglo American Committee (links also provided).

Here are some quotes concerning the number of Jews in Belgium before the invasion
L’estimation la plus récente donne le chiffre de 69.000 individus. Parmi eux, 8 à 10.000 fuient en France. L’occupant en recense 56.186 dans un fichier constitué entre 1941 et 1944.


Code: Select all

Seuls 6% des Juifs présents en Belgique avant l’invasion possédaient la nationalité belge. 94% d’entre eux étaient des étrangers arrivés dans notre pays par différentes vagues d’immigration. Ils étaient principalement originaires d’Europe de l’est.

De la fin du XIXe siècle, quelques centaines  de Juifs  fuyant les pogroms, les guerres et les révolutions de la Russie tsariste, aboutissent en Belgique.
Dans les années ’20, la première grande vague d’immigration juive en Belgique est originaire de Pologne. Les Juifs polonais fuient devant une crise économique très dure, aggravée pour eux par un climat ultranationaliste et extrêmement antisémite. En 1942, plus de 40% des Juifs en Belgique sont d’origine polonaise.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby The Warden » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:33 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Sorry Moderator

I did not know that the Polish census were that hard to find on the net...Anyway, i gave the links in my previous post.


Thank you for finally posting them. I only want as many different numbers in here as possible to show exactly how unreliable they are.
However, it's more than just the numbers. It's the final source I'm interested in. The internet creates a plethora of "sources" which are based on more unreliable sources.
It goes to the conclusion that information that isn't tracked back to the original source and how it's collected is severely open to misinterpretation and coercion.


Balsamo wrote:I admit, i forgot this one...
Here is the link

http://www.cicb.be/fr/home_fr.htm

It is in French...
But i did refere to my posting on rodoh and gave the subject of the topic where i used this information (which are the right one) which differs from the numbers given by the Anglo American Committee (links also provided).

Here are some quotes concerning the number of Jews in Belgium before the invasion
L’estimation la plus récente donne le chiffre de 69.000 individus. Parmi eux, 8 à 10.000 fuient en France. L’occupant en recense 56.186 dans un fichier constitué entre 1941 et 1944.


Code: Select all

Seuls 6% des Juifs présents en Belgique avant l’invasion possédaient la nationalité belge. 94% d’entre eux étaient des étrangers arrivés dans notre pays par différentes vagues d’immigration. Ils étaient principalement originaires d’Europe de l’est.

De la fin du XIXe siècle, quelques centaines  de Juifs  fuyant les pogroms, les guerres et les révolutions de la Russie tsariste, aboutissent en Belgique.
Dans les années ’20, la première grande vague d’immigration juive en Belgique est originaire de Pologne. Les Juifs polonais fuient devant une crise économique très dure, aggravée pour eux par un climat ultranationaliste et extrêmement antisémite. En 1942, plus de 40% des Juifs en Belgique sont d’origine polonaise.


Interesting site. They also claim this:
The Sammellager Mecheln is the starting point of deportation without return. Between 1942 and 1944, 24,916 Jews and 351 Gypsies were deported to Auschwitz. Two thirds were gassed upon arrival. After the liberation of Nazi camps, only 1,221 people are still alive.

Perhaps a conversation for another thread?

I do like seeing where people get their information from. It gives you a glance into the full extent of how far people will go to manipulate it, and also pass on unfounded claims.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 9 months ago (Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:02 am)

I suggest also the American jewish yearbook.

but for detailed information , do not only read the "statistics" chapter. Very interesting is the whole text in the report chapter "foreign countries".

There are many many numbers for emigrees , refugees, evacuated people IN the chapter.

examples :

http://www.ajcarchives.org/AJC_DATA/Fil ... oreign.pdf

244 AMERICAN JEWISH YEAR BOOK 1939-1940
II. OTHER WEST EUROPEAN COUNTRIES
1. Belgium
During..

against foreign Jews, who constitute 70% of the total
Jewish population in Belgium,


was not without effect upon
sections of the Belgian middle and professional classes.
The entire issue was, of course, confused by the presence

A total of 163,000 foreign
Jews, most of them Polish, Roumanian, and Hungarian
citizens, were residing in France at the time the decree of
May 2, 1938, was enacted.
The announcement, on April 2, 1939, by the Ministry


Poland:
In the elections on November 6, the Camp of National
Unity returned an overwhelming majority to the Sejm,
90% of the elected deputies being enrolled members of the...
It was not long before events appeared to justify the
pre-election fears of Jews. On December 3,
General Stanislaw Skwarczynski, head of the ruling party, announced
in the Sejm that he was planning a law to reduce
the number of Jews in the country, to free its economic and
cultural life from Jewish influence, and to limit the proportion

of Jews in certain professions.

During the period under review, the Jewish population
was less harassed by the economic boycott, in the form of
picketing, than in preceding years. The boycott reached
its height during the Christmas shopping season, when the
Government Radio System broadcast appeals to boycott
Jewish shops "as the most sacred national duty."

In the lobbies of
Parliament, this announcement was interpreted as portending
legislation akin to the Hungarian "Jew Law."
A resolution favoring such a course was adopted, on December
8, by the influential "Zarzewia" group, headed by the...

XV. THE REFUGEE PROBLEM
admitted into the country
and housed in special lodgings. In the Spring of 1939, it
was estimated that there were 22,000 refugees in Holland,
of whom 11,000 were permanently settled in the country.

Belgium was greatly affected by the sudden flight of
Jews from Austria and, in the period from May to December
1938, over 13,000 Austrians came to Brussels and
Antwerp.
The problem raised by this sudden influx was
met in part by the establishment of a number of camps by
The German Jewish Aid Committee of England
estimated, that in May 1939, 28,000 refugees were residing
in Great Britain. This number included some 3,000 children
As a result 27,000 German immigrants entered the country
from July 1, 1938 to June 30, 1939. In the same period,

Palestine admitted approximately 7,000 refugees from
Germany under the immigration schedules and an unknown
number of 'illegals.'
(See Section on Palestine).
Another of the great hopes were the countries of Latin
America. From 1933 to the end of 1938, some 40,000
refugees found homes in these lands, half of them in
Argentina.
The remainder were scattered throughout the

In the chapter statistics and report "foreign countries" you can find also a lot of estimated numbers related to border changings, romanian and soviet
deportations etc.

I try to collect the numbers from the report chapters for a chart.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Barrington James » 8 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:31 pm)

Hello – In this brief note I will describe a mathematical method that I have used to determine the number of holocaust survivors who were alive immediately after the war in 1945.5. The neat thing about my calculations is that they are based on mathematics and a report of Professor Sergio Dellapergola, Head, Division of Jewish Demography and Statistics of the Avraham Harman Institute of the Contemporary Jewry, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Counting Jews at the best of times, even in America right now, is always a tenuous task. They don’t like to be counted. The number of Jews presently living in America is still listed as six million. It has been listed as such for at least 50 years. This number is probably out by as much as a factor of three. Who knows? Therefore any study that tries to figure out the number of Jews who died in the holocaust is a bound to run into difficulties. That is the way the Jews want it. Can’t blame them.

So when one considers the present extremely high rate of assimilation of the Jews into American society and the even higher rate of assimilation of Jews into European society in the 1900’s and beyond, particularly in Germany ( At least 60% by 1930), and the very high number of Jews world-wide who are not religious, never have been; who think of themselves as cultural, non-religious or even atheists Jews, the counting game, how many Jews died in the holocaust, does get complicated.

However several years ago, much to my surprise, I discovered that Yad Vashem of Israel had done several studies on the number of Jewish holocaust survivors who were still alive in 2003. The number of survivors differed in the two studies by about 200, 000 (Wouldn’t you know it), due to the fact that that the definition of whom was to be called a Holocaust survivor differed in the two studies. One study used the definition that a holocaust survivor was one who had actually lived in a country taken over by the Nazis; the other study used the definition that a holocaust was any Jew who had suffered in any way from the horror, despite the fact for example, that they may have been living in Iraq or Moscow at the time.

Another huge problem with both studies, as mentioned above, was the fact that neither study took into account the huge but unknown number of Holocaust survivors world-wide who had fled the Nazis and had given up being a Jew. They did not consider, for example, the untold hundred of thousands or more of former Jews like the families of John Kerry, Madeleine Albright, Nancy Pelosi who had just slipped into American society, a practice that has been going on for hundreds of years, particularly in the first part of the 20’th century.

In his report Professor D. informs us of two major facts according to his study: that the number of Jewish holocaust survivors alive World Wide in 2003 was 1,092, 000 and a table that gives us the number of holocaust survivors in Israel who are alive or expected to be alive in the years from 2002 to 2020.

I entered his data from the table in my calculator and I used second degree regression analysis. Thus I found that the number of Jewish survivors living in Israel in 2003 to have come originally from a 1945.5 group of survivors numbering 1, 586,300.

I then used this number, the number of known world wide survivors, and the number of survivors alive in Israel in 2003 and a simple ratio to calculate the total number of holocaust survivors in 1945.5. Just basic fractions.

I thus created two equal fractions, a ratio:

(1): The number of holocaust survivors alive living in Israel in 2003 ( Taken from Yad Vashem) over
(2): the number Israeli holocaust survivors who must have been alive in 1945.5 ( that I calculated) = (3): to the number of total holocaust survivors alive world wide in 2003 Taken from Yad Vashem)
over (4) :x, the unknown total number of holocaust survivors alive in 1945.5
( The number under discussion) I used the Professor's numbers and this new ratio

(1)265, 000 / = (3) 1,092,000 /
(2) 1,586,300 (4)x,

where x is the total number of holocaust survivors alive in 1945.5. I found the total number of holocaust survivors, x, to be about 6, 540,000.

How accurate is this number? Only as accurate as the data I took from Prof. S. but I, of course, think my method is reasonably sound . He got the number of survivors who are still alive world wide from their demands for some of the Switzerland loot rewarded to Israel recently. However, as said above, there could be several hundred thousands Jews who didn't ask for the money, have dropped Judaism and are living out their days in peace somewhere, that he is unaware of. In other words, there could be more survivors world wide than even he knows about. Perhaps these ex Jews want nothing to do with war, the holocaust or Judaism, and just want to be left alone. Could be. The rate of assimilation of Jews is still the biggest threat to Judaism- aside from Zionism of course.

Thus, the unknown rate of assimilation of the number of survivors still alive world wide in 2003 could have actually been even higher. Maybe 1,150, 000, for example, considering the 'lost" Jews and not 1,092,000. If that were the case then the total number of holocaust survivors in 1945.5 would have been an even higher 6,883,943. This new number would make quite a difference if one were to try and calculate the number of actual victims of the holocaust from it. Perhaps one of you can find the most suitable numbers and using my method come up with a better answer.

However with all due respect to Thomas Dalton’s previously mentioned excellent analysis, particularly his charts, which have been mentioned earlier on this thread, an analysis which came out after mine, I think my method has some merit.

In searching to corroborate my calculations I came up with a very quick method of calculating my above results. It is very simple but it gives a good ballpark figure. Thanks to the collapse of the USSR and the records immediately known about the camps in Germany, we now know that the total number of Jews who died in the “big four”: Auschwitz, Berge-Belsen, Dachau and Buchenwald was less in total than 100, 000.

We have also studied the other so-called death camps: Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmo, Maidanek, Belzec, and Stuttof with ground radar and other such methods and found nothing to indicate any kind of mass murder at all. Consequently I generously claim that at most, on the average, 5, 000 Jews died in the 16 other camps besides the “ big four”. Thus 16 times 5, 000 plus 100, 000 or 180, 000 Jews died in the camps. Simple- yet reasonable.

Finally, I make no claim about the number of Jews who were murdered for revenge or hate by the Nazis or by the ordinary Eastern of Central Europeans for all kinds of reasons. After all, the Christians and Jews have been killing one another for hundreds of years. Tens of million of Christians, for example, were killed in the Jewish led, financed, and inspired Russian Revolution. No doubt murder went on everywhere during the war. However these Eastern European stories of horror and the infamous Reinhard camp stories all lack the same fact that helped destroy the gassing stories: not a single mass grave that would nearly support the claims. As anyone knows who has watched CSI:Miami: it’s hard to prove a murder if one can’t show a single gassed body, let alone six million.

In any case, you must admit the number of holocaust survivors is a lot bigger than most people have been led to believe.
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby The Warden » 8 years 9 months ago (Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:50 am)

Excellent post. Thank you.
The giving up of the Jewish identity is a very real variable when considering using such unreliable evidence such as population/demographic studies.

Barrington James wrote:However several years ago, much to my surprise, I discovered that Yad Vashem of Israel had done several studies on the number of Jewish holocaust survivors who were still alive in 2003. The number of survivors differed in the two studies by about 200, 000 (Wouldn’t you know it), due to the fact that that the definition of whom was to be called a Holocaust survivor differed in the two studies. One study used the definition that a holocaust survivor was one who had actually lived in a country taken over by the Nazis; the other study used the definition that a holocaust was any Jew who had suffered in any way from the horror, despite the fact for example, that they may have been living in Iraq or Moscow at the time.


Although the answer seems obvious since more survivors means more reparations (priority one for the victim industry), and they have no interest in the concept of more survivors means less dead (they refuse to make their numbers work consistently)... Just to clarify... Was the later study the one that showed 200,000 more survivors?

Barrington James wrote: However with all due respect to Thomas Dalton’s previously mentioned excellent analysis, particularly his charts, which have been mentioned earlier on this thread, an analysis which came out after mine, I think my method has some merit.


I think the foundation of this thread being that all methods have merit, but the data used in those methods remains questionable at best is important. If the original data used to calculate the figures is flawed, then all the methodology using that data will be subsequently flawed as well. Fruit of the poisonous tree, if you will.

Barrington James wrote:Finally, I make no claim about the number of Jews who were murdered for revenge or hate by the Nazis or by the ordinary Eastern of Central Europeans for all kinds of reasons. After all, the Christians and Jews have been killing one another for hundreds of years. Tens of million of Christians, for example, were killed in the Jewish led, financed, and inspired Russian Revolution. No doubt murder went on everywhere during the war. However these Eastern European stories of horror and the infamous Reinhard camp stories all lack the same fact that helped destroy the gassing stories: not a single mass grave that would nearly support the claims. As anyone knows who has watched CSI:Miami: it’s hard to prove a murder if one can’t show a single gassed body, let alone six million.

In any case, you must admit the number of holocaust survivors is a lot bigger than most people have been led to believe.


Now that "denial" is taboo, and the fables of the Holocaust are considered "historical fact", the Jewish "authorities" have no reason not to attempt to fudge the numbers.

But the point remains, the number of survivors is moot until the number of Jews pre-war and post-war are solidified. This thread is just a way to show how impossible that task can be.

You can't say 10 people lived in a house when the house caught fire, claim 5 were killed in the fire, file and win lawsuits for the five, and then claim there were 9 survivors when the checks are being signed. Or claim there were originally 20 inhabitants after the fact. It's simply insulting to anyone who understands math.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Population Statistics/Demographics

Postby Sannhet » 8 years 9 months ago (Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:11 pm)

"The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry" is a good resource on this.

Balsamo claims it is unreliable and provides two hairsplitting examples of why he thinks so.

However, consider:
-- The thesis of "Dissolution" : The Jewish population in Eastern-Europe declined dramatically because of migration, both forced and voluntary -- Voluntary migration, in fact, being in effect for decades prior to the war. In simplest terms, Jewish population decline in Europe is attributed to the following: "Extra Deaths" in WWII vs. Outmigration, 1:5.

-- The thesis of "Destruction" : [implicit] Jews lived a happy-go-lucky existence in Eastern-Europe, there were never any population movements, the only reason fewer are there today is that Germans exterminated 6-million in gas chambers. In simplest terms, Jewish population decline in Europe is attributed to the following: "Extra Deaths" in WWII vs. Outmigration, 5:1.

Any academic work can be "nitpicked". However, the fact is that "Dissolution", and a lot of the other sources offered above, provide a lot of evidence that the "dissolution thesis" is correct. This is reinforced by all the other intellectual victories of Revisionism on the impossibility of the gas chambers, etc.


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