Nuremberg Laws

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Roscov
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Nuremberg Laws

Postby Roscov » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:47 am)

This post is in reference to the school holocaust resource document which I have here, and I will quote from it if I may:

'1935 - Hitler passed the NUREMBERG LAWS. Jews lost their rights as German Citizens. It became illegal for Germans to marry, or to have any relationships with, Aryans. Jews were encouraged to leave Germany.'

I have looked for a copy of the Nuremberg Laws online, and cannot see them, only references to what they allegedly say. A four page document allegedly the real deal and signed by Hitler was given to Patton, who in turn gave it to the Huntington library in California. They are now in the custody of the National Archives in Washington.

As these documents have only been on display since mid 2010, which versions have been used for the official narrative since the end of WW11? Where did they come from?

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:12 am)

I have read complete german text of the Laws.

But , after reading; my opinion is : this is some kind of common racial laws installed also in other countries during that period.(south africa , USA etc).

Forbidden marriages can be found also in other countries( remember restrictions in marriage and education , using shops ,theaters , benches, buses, trains, etc against black people can be found in the US until the 60s. In South Africa until the 80s.)

Some points are remarkable :

Jews is allowed to show the Star-of-David-Flag instead of the Reichsflagge.(Swastika flag)

Jews , who are clerks where removed , but got pension.

a lot of exceptions for WW1 participants, widows and orphans of WW1 participants etc!

lets have a look on contemporary comments :

Germany has given the Jewish minority the opportunity to live for itself, and is offering state protection for this separate life of the Jewish minority: Jewry's process of growth into a nation will thereby be encouraged and a contribution will be made to the establishment of more tolerable relations between the two nations.
Georg Kareski, the head of both the "Revisionist" Zionist State Organization and the Jewish Cultural League, and former head of the Berlin Jewish Community, declared in an interview with the Berlin daily Der Angriff at the end of 1935:

For many years I have regarded a complete separation of the cultural affairs of the two peoples [Jews and Germans] as a pre-condition for living together without conflict... I have long supported such a separation, provided it is founded on respect for the alien nationality. The Nuremberg Laws ... seem to me, apart from their legal provisions, to conform entirely with this desire for a separate life based on mutual respect... This interruption of the process of dissolution in many Jewish communities, which had been promoted through mixed marriages, is therefore, from a Jewish point of view, entirely welcome.

Zionist leaders in other countries echoed these views. Stephen S. Wise, president of the American Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Congress, told a New York rally in June 1938: "I am not an American citizen of the Jewish faith, I am a Jew... Hitler was right in one thing. He calls the Jewish people a race and we are a race." 17

The Interior Ministry's Jewish affairs specialist, Dr. Bernhard Lösener, expressed support for Zionism in an article that appeared in a November 1935 issue of the official Reichsverwaltungsblatt: 18
If the Jews already had their own state in which the majority of them were settled, then the Jewish question could be regarded as completely resolved today, also for the Jews themselves. The least amount of opposition to the ideas underlying the Nuremberg Laws have been shown by the Zionists, because they realize at once that these laws represent the only correct solution for the Jewish people as well. For each nation must have its own state as the outward expression of its particular nationhood.

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:11 am)

ovd1965 wrote:Germany has given the Jewish minority the opportunity to live for itself, and is offering state protection for this separate life of the Jewish minority: Jewry's process of growth into a nation will thereby be encouraged and a contribution will be made to the establishment of more tolerable relations between the two nations.


I think that's a "charitable" view of things.

These laws stripped Jewish citizens of their citizenship, including Jews born within the 1919 borders of Germany after 1919. It did this regardless of any guilt for any crime. It essentially made being Jewish a disqualifying factor for citizenship.

Georg Kareski, the head of both the "Revisionist" Zionist State Organization and the Jewish Cultural League, and former head of the Berlin Jewish Community, declared in an interview with the Berlin daily Der Angriff at the end of 1935...


And what about Jews who weren't Zionists, weren't WWI vets or related to WWI vets, but were born within the 1919 borders of Germany after 1919? Jews who had never done anything to express anything but loyalty to the German state?

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby Roscov » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:57 am)

ovd1965 wrote:I have read complete german text of the Laws.

But , after reading; my opinion is : this is some kind of common racial laws installed also in other countries during that period.(south africa , USA etc).

Forbidden marriages can be found also in other countries( remember restrictions in marriage and education , using shops ,theaters , benches, buses, trains, etc against black people can be found in the US until the 60s. In South Africa until the 80s.)

Some points are remarkable :

Jews is allowed to show the Star-of-David-Flag instead of the Reichsflagge.(Swastika flag)

Jews , who are clerks where removed , but got pension.

a lot of exceptions for WW1 participants, widows and orphans of WW1 participants etc!

lets have a look on contemporary comments :

Germany has given the Jewish minority the opportunity to live for itself, and is offering state protection for this separate life of the Jewish minority: Jewry's process of growth into a nation will thereby be encouraged and a contribution will be made to the establishment of more tolerable relations between the two nations.
Georg Kareski, the head of both the "Revisionist" Zionist State Organization and the Jewish Cultural League, and former head of the Berlin Jewish Community, declared in an interview with the Berlin daily Der Angriff at the end of 1935:

For many years I have regarded a complete separation of the cultural affairs of the two peoples [Jews and Germans] as a pre-condition for living together without conflict... I have long supported such a separation, provided it is founded on respect for the alien nationality. The Nuremberg Laws ... seem to me, apart from their legal provisions, to conform entirely with this desire for a separate life based on mutual respect... This interruption of the process of dissolution in many Jewish communities, which had been promoted through mixed marriages, is therefore, from a Jewish point of view, entirely welcome.

Zionist leaders in other countries echoed these views. Stephen S. Wise, president of the American Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Congress, told a New York rally in June 1938: "I am not an American citizen of the Jewish faith, I am a Jew... Hitler was right in one thing. He calls the Jewish people a race and we are a race." 17

The Interior Ministry's Jewish affairs specialist, Dr. Bernhard Lösener, expressed support for Zionism in an article that appeared in a November 1935 issue of the official Reichsverwaltungsblatt: 18
If the Jews already had their own state in which the majority of them were settled, then the Jewish question could be regarded as completely resolved today, also for the Jews themselves. The least amount of opposition to the ideas underlying the Nuremberg Laws have been shown by the Zionists, because they realize at once that these laws represent the only correct solution for the Jewish people as well. For each nation must have its own state as the outward expression of its particular nationhood.



Thank you ovd1965, I had a feeling that they wouldn't be quite as black and white as the much promoted mainstream view. Considering the 'state' of Israel today, and the laws they have in place for the same thing and worse, one has to wonder what is so interesting about this document; particularly, as you say, segregation continued in other countries until the late 20th century, and up to the present day in Israel. It certainly isn't a 'German concept', which is why we must view them in context with the times. It is ironic that the very place that uses documents like the Nuremberg Laws to promote their victimhood, is the place that adheres to them. Is there an online resource for a faithful translation please? I can read German enough to get me by, but probably not enough to trawl through the Nuremburg Laws. Thanks again

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:01 am)

To quote Mr. Neander : "Thats life"

Erst haben die Malediven zum 1. Januar 2008 alle Staatsbürger, die Christen sind, aus der Staatsbürgerschaft »entlassen« und Christen des Landes per Gesetz zu Staatenlosen gemacht, weil die Malediven halt ein rein islamisches Land sein wollen.

the malediven stripped all christians after 1.01.2008 of citizenship , because the malediven would like to be "a pure muslim state".

1938 : the polish government issued a decree canceling the citizenship of polish jews living in Germany.

the germans tried to send these people home, but poland closed the borders , thousends of polish jews were trapped in nevermensland and
camps.

regardless of any crime or guilt , these people were kicked out by their own government.

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:08 am)

Roscov wrote:It is ironic that the very place that uses documents like the Nuremberg Laws to promote their victimhood, is the place that adheres to them.


Not really. Israel developed their citizenship laws based on the Nuremberg Laws. If the notion was that Israel wanted to be able to afford citizenship to anyone denied citizenship during the Third Reich, then it makes sense, doesn't it?

Israel has never denied this, by the way.

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:09 am)

ovd1965 wrote:regardless of any crime or guilt , these people were kicked out by their own government.


That hardly justifies it.

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:12 am)

I will check my bookmarks for englsh version.

but here a short look.

Nuremberg Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor,
September 15, 1935

Moved by the understanding that purity of the German Blood is the essential condition for the continued existence of the German people, and inspired by the inflexible determination to ensure the existence of the German Nation for all time, the Reichstag has unanimously adopted the following Law, which is promulgated herewith:

Article 1.

1) Marriages between Jews and subjects of the state of German or related blood are forbidden. Marriages nevertheless concluded are invalid, even if concluded abroad to circumvent this law.

2) Annulment proceedings can be initialed only by the State Prosecutor.

Article 2.

Extramarital intercourse between Jews and subjects of the state of German or related blood is forbidden.

Article 3.

Jews may not employ in their households female subjects of the state of German or related blood who are under 45 years old.

Article 4.

1) Jews are forbidden to fly the Reich or National flag or to display the Reich colors. They are, on the other hand, permitted to display the Jewish colors. The exercise of this right is protected by the State.

Article 5.

(1) Any person who violates the prohibition under §1 will be punished by a prison sentence with hard labor.

(2) A male who violates the prohibition under § 2 will be punished with a prison sentence with or without hard labor.

(3) Any person violating the provisions under § 3 or §4 will be punished with a prison sentence of up to one year and a fine, or with one or the other of these penalties.

Article 6.

The Reich Minister of the Interior, in coordination with the Deputy of the Führer and the Reich Minister of Justice, will issue the Legal and Administrative regulations required to implement and complete this Law.

Article 7.

The Law takes effect on the day following promulgations except for §3, which goes into force on January 1, 1936.

Nuremberg, September 15, 1935at the Reich Party Congress of Freedom

The Führer and Reich Chancellor Adolf Hitler
The Reich Minister of the Interior Frick
The Reich Minister of Justice Dr. Gürtner
The Deputy of the Führer R. Hess

note the last part of article 4 !

the only allowed movement in germany besides the nazi movement ( also the only allowed to held camps, wear brown !! uniforms and rise a flag ) was the zionistic movement !

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:16 am)

Wroclaw wrote:
ovd1965 wrote:regardless of any crime or guilt , these people were kicked out by their own government.


That hardly justifies it.


please specify : justify the polish attitude against there own citizens ? or is it not justified that the germans tried to send these (non german citizens) home AFTER the polish tried to prevent their return to poland.

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:27 am)

ovd1965 wrote:
Wroclaw wrote:
ovd1965 wrote:regardless of any crime or guilt , these people were kicked out by their own government.


That hardly justifies it.


please specify : justify the polish attitude against there own citizens ? or is it not justified that the germans tried to send these (non german citizens) home AFTER the polish tried to prevent their return to poland.


What Germany did to its Jewish natural-born citizens during the Third Reich is not justified by the conduct of any other nation.

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:28 am)

would like to say , that I am personally not agree with any racial laws , but we must see all this in context of time. Not with an childish
view of good and bad.

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby Wroclaw » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:38 am)

ovd1965 wrote:would like to say , that I am personally not agree with any racial laws , but we must see all this in context of time. Not with an childish
view of good and bad.


And I think that, regardless of the times, it is always evil to discriminate against people based on their involuntary membership in a given demographic group.

Always.

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby ovd1965 » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:42 am)

That hardly justifies it.[/quote]

please specify : justify the polish attitude against there own citizens ? or is it not justified that the germans tried to send these (non german citizens) home AFTER the polish tried to prevent their return to poland.

What Germany did to its Jewish natural-born citizens during the Third Reich is not justified by the conduct of any other nation.


Of course not , but it is no unique evil german behavior. Obvisously there are many other racial laws and prejudices all around the world.

What about the polish laws and rules ; numerus clausus for students , clerks , officers, economical restrictions. Polands demands on Evian conference to remove 1 or 2 million jews.
The polish happiness about the "Madagascar" and the other "send-the-jews-elsewhere-" ideas.

The point is :
What others do is no justification , right.But the inversion of the argument is : than I am also not more "bad" than the others.

without claiming balance one injustice against another....

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:54 am)

Wroclaw wrote:What Germany did to its Jewish natural-born citizens during the Third Reich is not justified by the conduct of any other nation.

ovd1965 beat me to it, but here goes anyway.

Firstly, all attitudes of all people must be seen in the context of attitudes prevailing at that time, not through "presentist" prejudices, and in the Thirties racism and nationalism (and to a lesser extent specifically anti-semitism) were universal. The Southern states of the USA and South Africa have been mentioned, but it is true of British and French attitudes to their non-white colonies ("No dogs or Chinese admitted"), the White Australia policy, etc., and sexual relationships, let alone marriage between whites and non-whites were nigh universally disapproved. Indeed this continued to be the case well into the latter years of the 20th century. Churchill was (by my standards) an appalling racist.

Secondly the role of the historian, including amateurs like ourselves, should not be to pass judgement of past eras but to seek to understand what happened and what were the factors that caused it to happen. This includes national and communal conflicts. It is legitimate to put German anti-Jewish actions into this broader context, which includes anti-Jewish actions in Poland, and anti-German measures by Jewish bodies abroad. It does not imply approval. This is not to say we cannot have personal opinions, but they lie outside the role of historiography.

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Re: Nuremberg Laws

Postby joachim neander » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:29 pm)

Wroclaw wrote:
These laws stripped Jewish citizens of their citizenship

Well, this is only partly correct. There is a problem for Americans, Britishers, and alike, to understand what was going on. In these countries, if you have "citizenship," you have all rights and duties, save a court decided - individually - to strip you of some of them, e.g. to vote or to be elected.

The 3rd Reich went back to the medieval tradition of the German Stadt (town, city), which was a juridical, not a geographical entity. Its inhabitants were divided into classes: Bürger (citizens?), who had full rights, e.g. to elect the Rat (town council), but also full duties (e.g. to defend the Stadt against enemies and, according to their wealth, to provide additional fighters, who they paid and equipped), and simple Bewohner (inhabitants), without Bürgerrecht. They had, however, the duties to pay taxes and, in case of war, to help defending the Stadt that gave them in turn the possibility to earn their living and to live, more or less, undisturbed and in peace. Until the so-called "Emancipation" of the Jews, no Jew could become a Bürger in German countries.

The Nazis applied this principle to a modern state, somewhat anachronistically. German Jews were not stripped of Staatsangehörigkeit (citizenship) by the Nuremberg Laws, in their passports the Staatsangehörigkeit was written as "Deutsches Reich," and also in the concentration camps they were registered as "R.D." (for reichsdeutsch). When war broke out, those who had fled Nazi Germany and were in Britain, France, or Belgium, were arrested and interned, at least for some time, as "enemy aliens." German Jews who had survived the war and returned to their former homes in postwar Poland or Czechoslovakia, were expelled like every German national, even if they had been concentration camp prisoners.

German citizenship right in the 3rd Reich was a very complicated matter. I summarized it in an article for theologie.geschichte (on the Web, google!), but it is of course written in German. It is difficult to write about it in English, because the German law had concepts that did not exist in Anglo-Saxon law, so there are no English words for it. I hope you will understand this.


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