Holocaust 101

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Barrington James
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Holocaust 101

Postby Barrington James » 8 years 8 months ago (Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:49 pm)

The holocaust explained. Up until 1933 and the rise of Hitler, 95% of the Jews of Germany would have nothing to do with Zionism. Almost 100% of them refused to move to Palestine or even to become Zionists. They loved Germany. They were even more accepted, wealthier, and more successful in almost all walks of life in Germany, in a wider range of activities, than they are in the USA today. They were also marrying outside of their faith at a rate in 1920 in Germany as high as the rate they are now presently marrying outside of their faith in the USA, at least 60%. This was a huge worry to the Zionists then as it is now. The Jews were assimilating so fast in Germany in 1930 that there would have been very few Jews left there in two to three generations. The Zionists knew their dream of creating Israel was threatened. They knew that it was not going to happen unless the well educated, wealthy German Jews could be forced to move to Palestine. The Zionist dream was slipping away.

In the meantime Hitler was trying to build up his party: The National Socialists. However he was not having much luck either. He had been thrown in jail once already, he had some of his men killed during some of his marches, and the communists and socialists were beating up his supporters at his meetings, and he had little money. Enter the Zionists.

They made Hitler an offer that he could not refuse. They would finance him if he would help them to create Israel. They would put him in power in Germany if he would drive the Jews out of Germany. Thus the union of the Nationalist Socialists and the Zionists was created. (Hence the acronym NAZI) However the Zionist didn’t have much money either. What to do? Enter the Rothschilds. They had long wanted to build a fort in Palestine to look after their interests in the Middle East. They had even done some fancy footwork in 1916 to this end with the British Balfour Declaration that got the USA into WW1 on the side of the British. However the Rothschilds had no more luck in getting the German Jews to move to Palestine than the Zionists had. But they now had the perfect plan. In the words of Theodore Herzel:

"It is essential that the sufferings of Jews….become worse….this will assist in realization of our plans….I have an excellent idea….I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth….The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends."

Unfortunately the perfect NAZI/Zionist plan proved to be not so perfect. Where do I begin? To start with, the large holding camps for Jews, the concentration camps, the camps that were to supply the Nazis with workers for the war, as well as to be holding tanks for future settlers in Israel, proved to be a bad idea.

Despite the building of showers and indoor toilets, the use of recreational facilities of all kinds that included playing fields, libraries, music, and even a swimming pool in one case, despite having hospitals, dentists, doctors, nurses, a brothel, and the use of the lice killer zyklon B, and other such sanitation facilities and precautions; diseases such as typhus, dysentery and TB broke out in the camps such from time to time killing, in some cases, hundreds of people a day. Worse yet, in total, hundreds of thousands of internees and POW’s died in the camps of disease and starvation when the Nazis ran out of food, water, medical supplies, and the sanitation facilities stopped working, especially when the of the camps such as Bergen-Belsen, Dachau, and Buckenwald became so overcrowded, as the Jews fled Poland by the thousands from such camps as Auschwitz to the camps in Germany

The dying in the camps got horribly out of control during the last few months of the war when Germany ran out of pilots and thus became defenseless against the night and daytime bombing of the British and Americans which bombed Germany to pieces in senseless acts of destruction. Therefore when the Allies “liberated” the camps (Actually the NAZIS gave them up willingly), and the shocked soldiers saw the thousands of dead and dying internees in the camps in Germany, Bergen –Belsen in particular, the soldiers rushed to the wrong conclusions. They believed the Allied/ communist propaganda that they had been hearing all during the war had been right: the NAZIS had gassed millions of Jews to death.

Despite an immediate investigation by the Allies of the all the NAZI camps as they became “liberated”, and despite the constant monitoring of the camps by The Red Cross all during the war, which proved that there never had been any “lethal” gas chambers in any the camps, the wartime propaganda had been so effective that many of the people of the world believed the propaganda stories of murder to be true. However the Allies smothered the truth after the war so well that even today most people in North America still believe that the Jews and others, as many as eleven million people in all, six million Jews in total, had been gassed by the Nazis. .

It was not long after the war that the Allies and the Zionists soon realized that they could make good use of the gassing stories. The Allies would be able to justify their hideous destruction of all of Germany long past the time when the Russians had won the war; to justify the murder of a million Nazis soldiers after the war; to justify the Nuremberg show trials which were created to murder anyone who might know the truth about the Nazi/Zionist Agreements, and other such secrets; to smother the ethnic cleansing of all of East Prussia of Germans; the Zionists would be able to force Germany to pay them billions of dollars to Israel for “creating the holocaust”; and the Zionists would be able to “justify” their long planned, cruel, conquest of the defenseless Palestinians.

It would seem to any reasonable person that the gassing story could never be believed by anyone. It was too unbelievable. Common sense would have told anyone who could think, anyone who knew anything about people, human nature, camp disease, and propaganda, that there would have been riots in the camps if up to 20, 000 a day were being murdered in the camps. The worst insult of all was the story that millions of Jews went to the gas chambers as willingly as they had been portrayed to have done so by the propaganda and post war stories and movies. How could anyone ever believe that this could have happened, particularly in Auschwitz the largest camp of all which held over 100, 000 people as witnesses to the so-called gas chamber located right inside the camp 20 meters from the Nazi Hospital? It was ludicrous to think so.

And yet through the power of the newspapers, books, magazines, TV, radio, Hollywood and our politicians most people were soon convinced that the war time propaganda was true. It seems unbelievable that people could believe such nonsense. However let us not forget that many people still believe that two planes knocked down the Twin Towers, despite the fact that no open fuel fire can melt steel, or that Saddam had WMD, or that WW1 and 2 were good wars, despite the fact that those two wars led to dozens of wars since that time, and the death to 100 million people, or that we were or are bringing democracy to Vietnam, Laos, Central America, Haiti, Afghanistan and Iraq and goodness knows what to Yugoslavia and soon to be Iran.

People, it seems, if carefully taught, can be led to believe anything.

I know, I was of them for 30 years or more. All corrections will be apprecaited.

BJ
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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby AWoLsco » 8 years 8 months ago (Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm)

What a masterly summary, Barrington-James. I salute you. That's going straight in to my archives.
I fully realise the problems of summary for posts on the internet, nevertheless I do think it worthwhile to mention the effect of the demand of Churchill and Roosevelt for "unconditional surrender". (for this had an effect on concentration camps)
It may be of interest to fervent German nationalists, like Friedrich Berg(much respected), to note the disquiet and uneasiness that this unusual(by West European standards) demand, produced amongst the more-thinking members of the British armed forces.
In fact, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that this was the first stage in the progressive disconnection of the British people from their armed forces, which is about 90% complete at this point in time.( I see them now as little more than technologically-enhanced hired thugs)
40-50 yrs ago, my mother had to come down to the cinema and haul me out, so taken was I by the Battle of Britain film "Reach for the Sky ", Douglas Bader,Spitfires and feats of derring-do. Now when I see such programmes, which seem deliberately to be shown to rouse feelings of patriotism and perpetuate infantile European rivalries, when convenient to those in charge, I switch off. For I no longer see battle and grief and heroic deeds, but a sickening and insane fratricide.

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 8 months ago (Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:44 pm)

Up until 1933 and the rise of Hitler, 95% of the Jews of Germany would have nothing to do with Zionism.

I seriously doubt that. It was strong in the USA amongst well off Jews, among well off Jews of German background. I know that Jews in Germany were different from Poland, but I seriously doubt that Zionism was that small.

As an aside, Raul Hilberg (German Jew) grew up in a right-wing Zionist household.

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby gbrecht » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:25 am)

Have to agree with CCS, Zionism might not have been as big as it is now, but 5%?

Also, you claim Hitler was funded purely by Jews, yet Mein Kampf alone during 1925-1933 sold well over a million copies in Germany alone. You think Hitler, who spoke and wrote out against negative Jewish influence, would accept this Jewish plan to resettle the Jews just because he wanted them out? What about the Madagascar plan that was considered at the highest levels of the Nazi Party?

Ignoring the fact that Hitler published Mein Kampf, which speaks out against Jews, in 1925, long before he was a serious contender for the Chancellery. Are you suggesting it was a big conspiracy and Hitler was a super secret agent for Zionism and the Rothschilds? I guess they sought him out for his wonderful paintings hmm?

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:24 am)

A thought-provoking analysis, and I congratulate you on it, even if I am going to go on and question some of your assumptions. We have to be as rigorous with the arguments of our own side as we would be with those of our adversaries.

You make a lot of assertions but don't provide sources or evidence, firstly for the claim that Zionists provided financial support for Hitler.

Barrington James wrote:They made Hitler an offer that he could not refuse. They would finance him if he would help them to create Israel. They would put him in power in Germany if he would drive the Jews out of Germany. Thus the union of the Nationalist Socialists and the Zionists was created.

An interesting idea: not new, but still interesting, though it does need some hard evidence. Maybe there was no firm agreement but a just co-incidence of interests. Provide evidence of the financing.

Barrington James wrote:(Hence the acronym NAZI)

I think you invented that one! Far too transparent! It's just an abbreviation of the German for "national". A common practice in German, as in "Amis" for Americans.

Barrington James wrote:However the Zionist didn’t have much money either. What to do? Enter the Rothschilds. They had long wanted to build a fort in Palestine to look after their interests in the Middle East.

Again a bit conspiracy theorist, but not to be dismissed out of hand. In fact probably basically true.

You then go on to provide a quotation from Herzl, which would appear damning, but which is unsourced and appears to have been regurgitated from biased sites. Its validity has been questioned on the Randi site: http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-176444.html

The part of your post that deals with the war and the aftermath is very good. Especially that, unlike some here, you do not seek to stick it all on a Jewish conspiracy, but recognise that it worked to the advantage of all parties including Western and Soviet governments. I think the pacification and denazification of Germany were the major motives. The Russians made little of the specificallly Jewish angle.

Although you don't specify this, you appear to think the number of people who fully knew the basic falsehood of the accusations was very small. The overwhelming majority neither knew nor cared, and were willing to believe anything uncritically. Thus bringing about what Samuel Crowell has called a mass hallucination.

Barrington James wrote:...to smother the ethnic cleansing of all of East Prussia of Germans;

One of the worst war crimes of the 20th century, and almost entirely consigned to the memory-hole until very recently.

Barrington James wrote:However let us not forget that many people still believe that two planes knocked down the Twin Towers, despite the fact that no open fuel fire can melt steel...

A red herring and one that works against you. Don't make one hard-to-swallow pill (Holocaust "denial") dependent on swallowing another one first! Most non-believers are not 911- "troofers" either (and neither is the present writer, though I agree that there are a lot of unexplained factors)

Barrington James wrote:... or that WW1 and 2 were good wars

I don't think many do believe that nowadays about WW1. That is the big issue: why can we all accept that WW1 was in essence a massive train crash, but believe that WW2 was "the good war"? The answer lies with the Big H, which allows us to identify the Nazis with consummate evil, and therefore justifies everything else that follows.

Barrington James wrote:People, it seems, if carefully taught, can be led to believe anything.

They can indeed, to the point that, in this case, those teaching them are among the most fervent believers!

Great post. Thank you.

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby AWoLsco » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:03 am)

BJ,says that 95% or whatever, of German Jews had nothing to do with Zionism.I broadly agree.
I understand that as meaning that Zionism wasn't a big thing for them, and for those that were interested, that's all it was...interest. This is supported by my own anecdotal evidence which comes from Germans and German jews that were there at the time. Think of this. You're a middle class jew in Berlin, one of the most cultured cities in Europe and somebody suggests that you up sticks for a life of pioneering in Palestine. Talking about Zionism would be one thing, actually doing it ....quite another.On a day-to day basis, relations between German and Jew were very good at least in middle class areas, however there were grumblings about the numbers of Jews in the universities, control of the press,control of the banks, and the influx of rather unsavoury Jews from Poland and Russia.

The distaste for those immigrants was shared equally between German and German Jew. There were never any pogroms against German Jews. Pogrom is the Russian word for attack. A Scotsman, touring Russia in the early 1900's gives an insight into the true nature of the Pogrom. They resulted from the perpetual state of animosity between peasant and jew.Any slur or insult from either side,could trigger one, at any time, or any place. The end result could vary from mild fisticuffs to a full scale riot with arson and looting. This was a huge problem for the Tsarist security forces for they never knew when those were going to take place. Despite what may be portrayed in Hollywood films, such things were either very rare in Germany or didn't happen at all. Certainly neither side of our German friends mentioned it.
The odd conclusion I have reached, so far, is that of all the nations of Europe, the Germans were amongst the least antisemitic. Certainly the "visceral" antisemitism as alluded to by Jonah Goldhagen(author of Hitler's willing executioners) is false with respect to the German nation.
No, if you want that, you've got to head North and East, out of Berlin, into the Baltic and the Ukraine where it could be found by the spadeful. Even then, it wasn't mindless....not by any means. You'll get a hint of the reasons behind the hatred, by reading that article in the Norwegian newspaper....thread entitled "Norwegian mainstream media article."

"Lies come first and drag along the gullible, truth limps in long after on the arm of time" Balthazar Gracian. Maybe we're getting there?

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby trevor » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:04 am)

David Irving mentions here a letter written by Heinrich Bruning to Churchill showing that the managers of two biggest Berlin banks (owned by Jews) sponsored Hitler. One of the manager was the leader of Zionism in Germany. Churchill wanted to publish this letter in his memoirs but Bruning did not allow it.
David Irving re: Hitler & Churchill part 1 of 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKuXW2fLkz4

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:01 pm)

There are some good points in the essay, but it's also very flawed: "Nazi" comes from National Socialism and Zionism? LOL. It comes from an abbreviated National Socialism.

The dying in the camps got horribly out of control during the last few months of the war when Germany ran out of pilots and thus became defenseless against the night and daytime bombing of the British and Americans which bombed Germany to pieces in senseless acts of destruction.


Run out of pilots?? This is just made up.

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby Cloud » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:10 pm)

You make a lot of assertions but don't provide sources or evidence

And that is the post's greatest weakness. No one can check what he is saying - and that means the reader has to take it with a grain of salt. Imagine if revisionist authors did not bother to cite a single book or document. The exterminationists would be having a field day.
Last edited by Cloud on Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:15 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:Run out of pilots?? This is just made up.

I'm not so sure. It was a problem for Britain in 1940, and
the Luftwaffe ran out of competent pilots and this was the fault of the Luftwaffe itself. The Luftwaffe could not be blamed if German industry failed. Luftwaffe commanders can be faulted for an inadequate training program. Here we are taking about a relatively small group of men, Candidates in 1943 and even 44 could have been easily recruited. The Luftwaffe failed to open new fighter training schools until 1944. Instructions at these schools was poor. Fighter aces were not pulled out of active service to share their skills. Instructors were thus of relatively low quality. The pilot shortage which reached crisis levels in 1944 forced the Luftwaffe to deploy pilots with 112 hours of training--less than half that of American pilots. Especially significant is that shortages of jet fuel severely limited air time.

http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/air/eur/sbc/44/sbc44.html

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby AWoLsco » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:19 pm)

"Run out of pilots, this is just made up." says Carlos Cutlass Supreme, from distant Northern California.

No, once again it may not be entirely accurate, but a gentleman would be prepared to make some concession to the constraints imposed by the attempt to summarise a complex period of history. Can you(CCS) do better?

Once again BJ is not wildly off the mark. In the latter stages of the war aviation fuel was becoming scarce.
You(CCS) are correct in saying that there wasn't a shortage of volunteer pilots...but... they were getting younger and younger(even recruiting fom the ranks of the Hitler Youth.)
Training time in the air had to be cut back to economise on precious aviation fuel.Certainly planes piloted by inexperienced fighter pilots are better than having planes on the ground ...but not much better. So effectively there was a shortage.
Interesting anecdote from Johannes Steinhof, Luftwaffe air ace, which highlights the desperate(for the Germans) shortage of aviation fuel at the close of the war...... the bizarre sight of the world's most modern fighter,the Me262, being towed to the threshold of the runway by teams of horses to save aviation fuel.

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby gbrecht » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:27 pm)

It goes without saying that nearing the final stages of the war Germany was running out of everything, resources, industry, munitions, fuel and of course manpower.

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby Malle » 8 years 8 months ago (Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:03 pm)

I think this is a good thread. BJ was posting the initial post where he was saying:
Barrington James wrote:All corrections will be appreciated

So what he is saying is that we others can review it and tell him where the flaws are. Several posters has done this and also given sources for their corrections. I consider BJ’s post as a draft, so let us help him out.

The statement that Germany ran out of pilots is correct according to one poster here. Let me add what most already knew in this forum, they hadn’t anything to muster against the American P55 Mustang in the spring 1944. According to the German fighter pilot Werner Schrör, it was not the performance that was frightening, it was the number they showed up in. The Mustang had a fighter plane performance and a bomber plane range. From March 1944 Germany didn’t control their own airspace in daylight. So they lost the control over their airspace over a year before the war ended. We all know today what that meant, the total destruction of Germany’s towns and infrastructure.

Source is The World at War episode 12, 50:14
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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby gbrecht » 8 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:15 am)

Malle you forget the Me-262 which held a 4-1 K:D ratio against the mustang, and a total K:D of 5-1. This includes many planes being lost during takeoff or being destroyed on the ground.

The reason wasn't allied air numbers or technology, it was specifically that they gained air superiority with the addition of the americans, in production capability and pilots. Once they lost air superiority they lost more industry, and it could never be regained.

Remember the me262 was the first plane to ever break the sound barrier. If the USA hadn't entered the war against Germany things would've played out far differently. And I do mean USA entering the war, not Hitler declaring war on the Americans. Anyone who knows WW2 history will tell you the Americans were already involved in the war, helping the British, hence the reason for Hitler's DoW.


Actually come to think of it this would be a good thing to post, hold on.

Apologies if this video isn't perfect, I haven't watched it but this is supposed to be Hitler's Declaration of war on the US speech to the Reichstag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOY_0gIV7is


If you haven't ever read Hitler's DoW speech on the USA, I recommend doing so, or at least watch that video.

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Re: Holocaust 101

Postby Barrington James » 8 years 8 months ago (Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:23 pm)

Carto's Cutlass Supreme wrote:
Up until 1933 and the rise of Hitler, 95% of the Jews of Germany would have nothing to do with Zionism.

I seriously doubt that. It was strong in the USA amongst well off Jews, among well off Jews of German background. I know that Jews in Germany were different from Poland, but I seriously doubt that Zionism was that small.

As an aside, Raul Hilberg (German Jew) grew up in a right-wing Zionist household.


CCS..Thanks for your reply. Let's look at it this way. Of the at least 5,000, 000 Jews who are presently living in the USA, over the years only 120, 000 or 2.4% or them have emigrated to Israel...and when one considers that these total numbers are over 60 years , ( in which the total number of Jews living in America over that time is much more than 5, 000,000) , the rate is far less than 2.4%, ...and when one considers that the Jews of America are being bombarded every day about the holocaust and the guilt of their living in the USA it is a shocking small percent , or a tribute to good old American common sense....

A few years ago, Israel even had to force Germany to make a German law to prevent Russian Jews from emigrating from Russia directly to Germany...They now must move to Israel first...How's that for freedom. So why would you expect the Jews of Germany, a paradise for Jews before 1933 , to behave any differently than the American Jews?
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