Why heat a morgue?

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Zulu
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Why heat a morgue?

Postby Zulu » 1 decade 3 weeks ago (Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:13 am)

A plan for heating the morgue Leichenkeller 1 at Krema II constitutes a "criminal proof" for the exterminationists. That plan was abandoned. But, for the exterminationists, the "criminal" intention remains...

So, why heat a morgue?

Under a technical point of view, two logical reasons can be advanced.
According to Pressac, SS considered the possibility to recycle the heat lost on the exhaustion gases of the ovens during the cremation's process. By recuperating a fraction of that lost heat by mean of a heat exchanger for warming morgues, the functional advantage could have been of 2 orders:

1- to facilitate working conditions on rooms mostly below 0ºC during a long period of the year.

That point was correctly addressed by Germar Rudolf

"Correct conclusion: According to expert literature, morgues do indeed need some kind of heating equipment, because corpses must be protected from the effects of frost and freezing temperatures in winter.[227] Hence, under normal operation, morgues would have been equipped with heating devices, but the initial plans to equip the morgues in Auschwitz with heaters were cancelled,[228] rendering the argument irrelevant. Regarding the removal of the water pipes, a 'non-criminal' explanation follows logically: Since no heating was ever installed in these morgues, there was a danger that the water pipes would have burst in freezing temperatures due to the lack of any heating. In order to prevent burst pipes and a subsequent flooding of the morgues, the pipes had to be removed."

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/trr/5.html#5.4.1.2.5.

Positive temperature for a morgue.
In a modern morgue, in case of not storing long time the bodies the temperature a the room is maintained "positive", generally between 2°C and 4°C. At the Kremas, the morgues were used mostly as buffers to store corpses before their cremation and as places to undress them, to recuperate golden teeth and to medical studies on diseases by practicing autopsies. As consequence, the storage of bodies didn't probably last more than 1 day and, in that situation, a temperature largely above 0'C could have been programmed.

<>
´a- Positive temperature
Bodies are kept between 2°C and 4°C. While this is usually used for keeping bodies for up to several weeks, it does not however prevent decomposition, which continues at a slower rate than at room temperature.
<>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgue#Pos ... emperature

Winter in Poland can easily bring temperatures below 0'C, so, in underground rooms like the morgues of the Krema II and III, that is not a proper temperature to work in good conditions. Undressing, picking golden teeth, performing autopsies with frozen bodies coming from all parts of the camp was not supposed to be easy. It seems reasonable to thing in using a free energy in order to facilitate all those operations by maintaining a temperature between 0ºC to 10ºC or more at the morgue and rooms annexe during the coolest period of the year in the zone. The system could be stopped for the hottest period and the underground location of the morgues of KII and III was able to maintain a sufficient cool temperature for a conservation of bodies during a short time.

Average temperature in Krakow (coolest period of the year)

Month........Average high.............Average low
-----------------------------------------------------------
November..7.0° C / 44.2° F........0.0° C / 32.4° F
December..2.0° C / 35.2° F.......-4.0° C / 24.8° F
January.....0.0° C / 31.8° F ......-7.0° C / 19.9° F
February....2.0° C / 35.8° F.......-5.0° C / 23.4° F
March.......7.0° C / 44.8° F.......-1.0° C / 29.7° F

http://www.cracowonline.com/krakow_weather.php

That table shows that during practically 5 months of the year in the Auschwitz' s region, morgues should have to be usually heated in order to work at largely positive temperatures. Not to mention works underground in 3 adjacent rooms.

2- to economize fuel by diminishing the total energy of cremation by pre-heating frozen bodies.

It must be considered that the higher the temperature of the the bodies the less energy is needed to cremate them. As the energy to heat the bodies was free, the final balance of cremation was aimed to be largely advantageous in terms of consumption of fuel..

In the case of the Kremas, as the storage of bodies had to last the less time possible before their cremation, the temperature of the morgue could have been until above 4'C until even 10'C always considering that the higher the temperature of corpses, the better for the final fuel consumption to cremate them. The limit is obviously the state of conservation of the corpses. Moreover, that pre-heating of bodies did not cost nothing as being a mere recuperation of normally lost heat during the process of cremation..

Then, the project of that installation must be envisaged as a mere plan to economize the fuel consumption at the crematories while facilitating all the usual operations performed on the bodies at those places.

As usual, Pressac didn't try to follow the track of his picked up document in order to know more about that project.

However, that concern to recuperate energy from the exhaustion gases of the ovens was verified in another occasion when Bischoff asked to adapt heating coils or boiler to the incinerator of the Kremas in order to allow the production of hot water for 100 showers.
The following document is an evidence of it

----------
Auschwitz, 15/5/1943
Correspondence register no. register no. 28819/43/Jä/Lm

URGENT
TELEGRAM!

Address : Topfwerke Erfurt
Text: Bring Monday [17th May] rough plan for production of hot water
for about 100 showers. Fitting of heating coils or boiler in the waste
incinerator at present under construction Krema III or system for using
the high temperatures of the flue gases. It would be possible to raise
the brickwork of the furnace to take a large tank. Herr Prüfer is
requested to bring the relevant drawings on Monday 17/5.

Sig. Bischoff

Transmitted 14/5
Time 1730 hours
Sig. Civilian Employee Schwender

Distribution
1 SPECIAL MEASURES file, POW camp, [manuscript] Krema III, BW 30a
1 Project leader [Kirschneck's initials]
1 SS Second Lieutenant Kirschneck

--------
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0241.shtml

To be noted au passage on that document another mention of "special measure" - sonderaktion - to a topic in relation with sanitary measures.
That contradicts one more time that allegation that such term was a code name always attributed to "gassing operations".

That possibility to warm the rooms where bodies were stored at the Kremas can be verified at KIV and KV. The corresponding plans show the presence of coal heaters. It is thus probable that some kind of mobile heaters could have been installed underground at Krema II and III to remedy the failure of the planed heating system.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby nathan » 1 decade 2 weeks ago (Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:44 am)

Zulu is to be congratulated for setting out his evidence plainly and defining his subject tightly. Overnight heating was it seems a desideratum for ordinary morgues though not, as would be the case of a Zyklon chamber, an absolute necessity. In the absence of a proper heating system, how might it have been done? Legends often have a basis in fact. Perhaps the official legend offers a clue.

According to Dr Piper, interviewed by DD Desjardins, the heating in Krema 1 depended on body heat alone. In Kremas 2 through 5 the heating was achieved by placing portable bins full of hot coke in the chamber, previous to the gassing. You might think they could have done better

Q: What was the gas exposure time for Kremas IV and V and by what means were they ventilated?
A: Twenty minutes, as per the other Kremas. There were plans for mechanical ventilation of the Zyklon B, but these were not put into effect. Evacuation of the gas was instead achieved by convection, that is, by merely opening the doors.
Q: What about means of heating for these chambers?[7]
A: Open coke containers, as per Kremas II and III.
Q: In regard to Kremas I through V, were special building materials used for the inside surfaces of the gas chambers or were standard brick and mortar used?
A: Standard building materials.[8
.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hans » 1 decade 3 days ago (Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:23 am)

Rudolf's explanation is hardly compatible with Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 explicitly mentioning a preheating of the basement. The concept of preheating a basement for something is somewhat different than constantly keeping a basement above freezing point in winter. The second explanation fits more to this concept, but still sounds rather odd. It does not appear to be very reasonable and efficient to heat the volume of a huge basement in order to defreeze a few (especially assuming Revisionist cremation rates) corpses prior cremation.

And finally and most importantly, the attempt to preheat the basement has to be put and understood in the context of the other documents at this time in particular Pressac's criminal traces. Then, it is not just a morgue intended to be equipped with a preheating system.

It is "gassing cellar" with "gas-door" with "peep-hole of double 8 mm glass" with a "aeration and deaeration device" which is "most urgently needed" for the operation of the facility, which is supposed to get "preheated" and which gas-tight-door had to open outward even though it was blocking the elevator door, which was located in a basement next to an "undressing room", which was given direct access by a stair way from the yard, whereas the corpse chute was supposed to disappear.

Now, admittedly this sounds all very strange for a morgue - but is incidentally fully explained in the setting of homicidal gassings. Which of course never did take place as we all know (amen).

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 3 days ago (Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:04 am)

Hans wrote:Rudolf's explanation is hardly compatible with Bischoff to Topf of 6 March 1943 explicitly mentioning a preheating of the basement. The concept of preheating a basement for something is somewhat different than constantly keeping a basement above freezing point in winter. The second explanation fits more to this concept, but still sounds rather odd. It does not appear to be very reasonable and efficient to heat the volume of a huge basement in order to defreeze a few (especially assuming Revisionist cremation rates) corpses prior cremation.
Considering that this was a work place were medical staff was occasionally practicing and given that it can get pretty chilly in that part of the world, heating or preheating these rooms in winter isn't that far stretched. One may also want to avoid freezing the corpses as this prevents autopsy.
Hans wrote:And finally and most importantly, the attempt to preheat the basement has to be put and understood in the context of the other documents at this time in particular Pressac's criminal traces. Then, it is not just a morgue intended to be equipped with a preheating system.
I think avoiding frozen corpses and suitable working conditions is sufficiently enough an explanation.
Hans wrote:It is "gassing cellar" with "gas-door" with "peep-hole of double 8 mm glass" with a "aeration and deaeration device" which is "most urgently needed" for the operation of the facility, which is supposed to get "preheated" and which gas-tight-door had to open outward even though it was blocking the elevator door, which was located in a basement next to an "undressing room", which was given direct access by a stair way from the yard, whereas the corpse chute was supposed to disappear.
Giving sources where you found those "criminal traces" is always good. I know about where to find most of this, but many other interested readers may not.
And you are not seriously upholding those hillarious arguments concerning "criminal traces" are you, Hans?!

Hans wrote:Now, admittedly this sounds all very strange for a morgue - but is incidentally fully explained in the setting of homicidal gassings. Which of course never did take place as we all know (amen).
No each of those either contradicts the homicidal gassing narrative or has at least far better non-homicidal explanations. But before we deal with this, it's of course necessary that we make sure that we are talking about the same documents now isn't it.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hans » 1 decade 2 days ago (Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:01 am)

Hektor wrote:Considering that this was a work place were medical staff was occasionally practicing and given that it can get pretty chilly in that part of the world, heating or preheating these rooms in winter isn't that far stretched. One may also want to avoid freezing the corpses as this prevents autopsy.


The heating of the cellar was no issue prior March 1943 and the basement was for sure planned without controlled heating at least till February 1943 - much too late to explain it with a necessity to prevent freezing of the corpses. We could have bought an anti-freezing policy if it were implemented in the planning or even early construction phase, but to assume the people became only aware of the freezing temperatures in Auschwitz in March or February 1943 when the facility should have been already in operation is not reasonable. Plus, preheating is still a conceptual difference to keeping the morgue regularly above freezing point.

So since the morgue hypothesis fails to explain the preheating properly, it is apparent that it is related to its actually intended primary function as a "gassing cellar". All documents I was referring to can be found in Pressac's Technique and Operation of the Auschwitz Gas-Chambers online available at the Holocaust History Project Site ( http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation ):

- "Gassing cellar" (Bischoff to Kammler, 29 January 1943)
- "gas-door" with "peep-hole of double 8 mm glass" (Bischoff to DAW, 31 March 1943)
- "aeration and deaeration device" which is "most urgently needed" (Bischoff to Topf, 11 February 1943)
- "preheated" (Bischoff to Topf, 6 March 1943)
- which door had to open outward even though blocking the elevator door (Bauleitung drawing 2003, 19 December 1942)
- which was located in a basement next to an "undressing room" (Bischoff to Topf, 6 March 1943)
- which basement was given direct access by a stair way from the yard, whereas the corpse chute was supposed to disappear (Bauleitung drawing 2003, 19 December 1942)

Of course, the late date of the plan to preheat the basement is easily explained by the late and (for all sides) novel implementation of the extermination site into the basement in late 1942/early 1943.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hektor » 1 decade 2 days ago (Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:37 am)

Sequence has been restructured a bit for combining the topics of the post.
Hans wrote:...The heating of the cellar was no issue prior March 1943 and the basement was for sure planned without controlled heating at least till February 1943 - much too late to explain it with a necessity to prevent freezing of the corpses. We could have bought an anti-freezing policy if it were implemented in the planning or even early construction phase, but to assume the people became only aware of the freezing temperatures in Auschwitz in March or February 1943 when the facility should have been already in operation is not reasonable. Plus, preheating is still a conceptual difference to keeping the morgue regularly above freezing point.

.....Of course, the late date of the plan to preheat the basement is easily explained by the late and (for all sides) novel implementation of the extermination site into the basement in late 1942/early 1943.
Actually the timing for a heating issue coming up during winter is almost perfect. Perhaps it got a bit unforseen cold, as the area was different then what usually did fall into the scope of projects of Topf und Soehne. And yes, the SS may even have tried to save on heating at first, too. So a change order would make perfect sense in that context. Changing an otherwise ordinary crematoria into an "exterminatination facility" as part of a plan to exterminate the Jews sounds however absurd. But let's assume they would have done this, the feasible solution would have looked quite different:
* The gas chambers themselves would not have been in the morgue for a couple of reasons, one of them adding bottle neck for the transport of corpses to the ovens via a tiny lift.
* They wouldn't have heated the whole room for running it as a gas chamber, they've just heated the HCN or it's carrier to vent it into the room afterwards (That's now, if they'd go for this as a homicidal agent).

Hans wrote:...
All documents I was referring to can be found in Pressac's Technique and Operation of the Auschwitz Gas-Chambers online available at the Holocaust History Project Site ( http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation ):

- "Gassing cellar" (Bischoff to Kammler, 29 January 1943)
- "gas-door" with "peep-hole of double 8 mm glass" (Bischoff to DAW, 31 March 1943)
Thanks for clearing this up a bit. I guess those issues have already been addressed in other threads, at least partially.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 day ago (Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:03 pm)

Hans said:
All documents I was referring to can be found in Pressac's Technique and Operation of the Auschwitz Gas-Chambers online available at the Holocaust History Project Site ( http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... -operation ):

- "Gassing cellar" (Bischoff to Kammler, 29 January 1943)
- "gas-door" with "peep-hole of double 8 mm glass" (Bischoff to DAW, 31 March 1943)


Not even a chance, Pressac has been demolished repeatedly, i.e.:
Hannover wrote:Go here for a thorough look at German air-raid measures. See advertisements for gas tight doors & doors with peep holes that appeared in German publications. ....http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconpressac.html
========
It's claimed by French pharmacist, Jean-Claude Pressac (who was hired by the Zionist 'Klarsfeld Foundation' to find evidence for 'gas chambers'), that gas tight doors and doors with peepholes are indications of gas chambers.

However, go the link given below for a thorough look at German air-raid measures. See advertisements for gas tight doors & doors with peep holes that appeared in German publications.

such as:
Image

Image

See Pressac thoroughly debunked on this and his other absurd 'criminal traces' here:

http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconpressac.html

PLUS, see how the bogus US 'holocau$t' Museum claims a bomb shelter door is a 'gas chamber' door here:

http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gcturen.html

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 1 day ago (Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:11 pm)

Hans continues to post here even though he hasn't done so well. Use the search function to see, key-in: Hans Hannover. We've gone at at repeatedly.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hans » 1 decade 16 hours ago (Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:04 pm)

Hannover wrote:Hans said:
All documents I was referring to can be found in Pressac's Technique and Operation of the Auschwitz Gas-Chambers online available at the Holocaust History Project Site ( http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... -operation ):

- "Gassing cellar" (Bischoff to Kammler, 29 January 1943)
- "gas-door" with "peep-hole of double 8 mm glass" (Bischoff to DAW, 31 March 1943)


Not even a chance, Pressac has been demolished repeatedly, i.e.:
Hannover wrote:Go here for a thorough look at German air-raid measures. See advertisements for gas tight doors & doors with peep holes that appeared in German publications. ....http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconpressac.html

[...]


The hypothesis offered by Hannover that the gas-tight door with peep-hole was meant for anti-air-raid measures has no historical base.

The first implementation of civil air defense measurements for the Auschwitz complex was ordered in the Standortbefehl of 16 November 1943 in the Standortbefehl, more than one year after the gas-tight door was requested. Needless to say that the crematoria are not listed as anti-air-raid facilities in the relevant documents.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 15 hours ago (Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:25 pm)

Hans says:
The hypothesis offered by Hannover that the gas-tight door with peep-hole was meant for anti-air-raid measures has no historical base.

The first implementation of civil air defense measurements for the Auschwitz complex was ordered in the Standortbefehl of 16 November 1943 in the Standortbefehl, more than one year after the gas-tight door was requested. Needless to say that the crematoria are not listed as anti-air-raid facilities in the relevant documents.

You've just shot yourself in the foot. The gas-tight door request was part of the defense measures. You have no basis for saying
The first implementation of civil air defense measurements for the Auschwitz complex was ordered in the Standortbefehl of 16 November 1943 ...


Please produce a copy of the original of "Standortbefehl of 16 November 1943", then prove to us that it was "the first implementation of civil air defense measurements for the Auschwitz complex... ". Show us where it says "first".

Then try actually reading:
http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconpressac.html
There were numerous requests for air defense equipment for Auschwitz crematoriums prior to your "Standortbefehl of 16 November 1943".

And what's particularly critical is that you cannot prove there were homicidal gassings in the crematoriums or anywhere else. In fact, the alleged gassings are scientifically impossible as alleged.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hans » 9 years 11 months ago (Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:12 pm)

Hannover wrote:Hans says:
The hypothesis offered by Hannover that the gas-tight door with peep-hole was meant for anti-air-raid measures has no historical base.

The first implementation of civil air defense measurements for the Auschwitz complex was ordered in the Standortbefehl of 16 November 1943 in the Standortbefehl, more than one year after the gas-tight door was requested. Needless to say that the crematoria are not listed as anti-air-raid facilities in the relevant documents.

You've just shot yourself in the foot. The gas-tight door request was part of the defense measures. You have no basis for saying
The first implementation of civil air defense measurements for the Auschwitz complex was ordered in the Standortbefehl of 16 November 1943 ...


Please produce a copy of the original of "Standortbefehl of 16 November 1943", then prove to us that it was "the first implementation of civil air defense measurements for the Auschwitz complex... ". Show us where it says "first".


Firstly, there is no documentary evidence for any carrying out of air defense measurements prior the order of 16 November 1943, even though very relevant document collections such as the Standort- and Kommandanturbefehle or the archive of the central construction office survived in high completeness. In fact, exactly those sources document the order and implemantation of air defense measurements after 16 November 1943. Thus, the absence of documentary evidences is evidence no air defense measurements were carried out prior 16 November 1943.

Secondly, the Standortbefehl says air defense measurements are to be carried out "nunmehr auch im Standortbereich Auschwitz" (from now on also in Auschwitz) , which implies that none were ordered and carried out before.

Both arguments were developed by Carlo Mattogno by the way in this article:

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/CM/Crowell-final-eng.html

The article also includes the Standortbefehl and a comprehensive discussion and rebuttal of the Crowell article you recommend.

And what's particularly critical is that you cannot prove there were homicidal gassings in the crematoriums or anywhere else.


What is actually particular critical is that there is no documentary evidence to support your bomb shelter hypothesis and also no founded testimonial evidence.

In fact, there is one single claim made 55 years after the event (which is late) by an alleged employee of a construction company (which is unconfirmed) who says towards a Revisonist (which doesn't make it more reliable) the basements were intended as air shelters. This is I'm afraid very little, and needless to say it is much less than for multiple testimonial evidence for homicidal gassings. The fact the door was changed opening outwards, is also not really in support of a bomb shelter, or that no second access was included as with Leichenkeller 2.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Cloud » 9 years 11 months ago (Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:53 am)

This is I'm afraid very little, and needless to say it is much less than for multiple testimonial evidence for homicidal gassings.

How many of the latter have been subject to cross examination by a defense attorney?

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hans » 9 years 11 months ago (Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:54 am)

Cloud wrote:
This is I'm afraid very little, and needless to say it is much less than for multiple testimonial evidence for homicidal gassings.

How many of the latter have been subject to cross examination by a defense attorney?


Many, if we just take into account West-German criminal proceedings.

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Cloud » 9 years 11 months ago (Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:33 pm)

Hans wrote:
Cloud wrote:
This is I'm afraid very little, and needless to say it is much less than for multiple testimonial evidence for homicidal gassings.

How many of the latter have been subject to cross examination by a defense attorney?


Many, if we just take into account West-German criminal proceedings.


Was the defense permitted to summon subject matter specialists such as chemists or cremation experts?

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Re: Why to heat a morgue?

Postby Hektor » 5 years 11 months ago (Wed May 06, 2015 5:44 pm)

Hans wrote:....
Firstly, there is no documentary evidence for any carrying out of air defense measurements prior the order of 16 November 1943, even though very relevant document collections such as the Standort- and Kommandanturbefehle or the archive of the central construction office survived in high completeness. In fact, exactly those sources document the order and implemantation of air defense measurements after 16 November 1943. Thus, the absence of documentary evidences is evidence no air defense measurements were carried out prior 16 November 1943.

Secondly, the Standortbefehl says air defense measurements are to be carried out "nunmehr auch im Standortbereich Auschwitz" (from now on also in Auschwitz) , which implies that none were ordered and carried out before.

Both arguments were developed by Carlo Mattogno by the way in this article:

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/CM/Crowell-final-eng.html

The article also includes the Standortbefehl and a comprehensive discussion and rebuttal of the Crowell article you recommend.

And what's particularly critical is that you cannot prove there were homicidal gassings in the crematoriums or anywhere else.


What is actually particular critical is that there is no documentary evidence to support your bomb shelter hypothesis and also no founded testimonial evidence.

In fact, there is one single claim made 55 years after the event (which is late) by an alleged employee of a construction company (which is unconfirmed) who says towards a Revisonist (which doesn't make it more reliable) the basements were intended as air shelters. This is I'm afraid very little, and needless to say it is much less than for multiple testimonial evidence for homicidal gassings. The fact the door was changed opening outwards, is also not really in support of a bomb shelter, or that no second access was included as with Leichenkeller 2.

Yes, the "Standort- and Kommandanturbefehle" https://archive.org/details/Konzentrati ... 45Auszuege are very revealing.
Just that it doesn't follow WITH NECESSITY from what you cited that there were NO air defense measures in place BEFORE that date. All what it shows is that emphasis was added to them. Which comes as no surprise, since The Allies had landed in Italy and Auschwitz came closer into their reach. What the Kommandanturbefehle reveal is rather difficult to reconcile with the Holocaust narrative. Check the excerpts for yourself. Btw. Where is the Prescribed service procedure for the homicidal gas chambers, when the German military has actually written procedures for virtually everything they do and the SS was actually emulating the military?!


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