Blue staining - why there is none

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astro3
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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby astro3 » 8 years 1 month ago (Mon May 09, 2011 4:56 am)

AHUGECAT, April 15:
‘Scientists have been able to measure in parts per billion since the 1980s’ No they can't – they can measure elements at that concentration, but not HCN.

‘And who said it [cyanide gas} penetrated through the walls? Is there proof?’ It’s obvious, and I gave two reasons in the bit of my text which he quotes.

‘Rudolf has not reconstructed the conditions of the gas chambers to provide a proper experiment.’ I agree it would be nice to do that - one would then see that gas diffusion from Zyklon sprinkled on the floor without heating would take about two hours to spread a lethal level of cyanide gas around the chamber.

What Rudolf did was to confirm and consolidate the findings of Leuchter concerning wall cyanide levels.

No-one should accept ‘AHUGECAT’’s argument (which he gets from Richard Green) that 300 ppm HCN gas is adequate for swift, lethal gassing: Fred Leuchter pointed out that the US cyanide gas chambers required 10,000 ppm of HCN to be assuredly lethal.

Most of his numbers are plucked out of thin air, eg ‘It [delousing chamber HCN exposure] is 22 times the concentration, for 72 times as long, per extermination cycle.'

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby IncisiveOne » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue May 10, 2011 6:34 am)

Hannover wrote:
Oh yes, all those alleged 2000 dead Jews were supposedly lifted to the crematorium above via a miniscule 4' X 9' elevator before the alleged next batch of 2000 entered. All that done in mere minutes. Those magical Germans were really something.


Exactly.

And that amazing ability to get rid of 6.5 million bodies, without leaving a trace: no bone remains; no graves; no killing machines. Amazing. We should get the Germans to write next years CSI. Or better still, they should provide funerary services to the poor in America, they can do the job for twenty cents, $2.20 if you want an urn. Now, with that level of magical ability, they truly must be the master race.

But those magical Germans do have their blind spots. Eg. they are total losers at "extermination". Failed miserably. Now the whole world is controlled by the very same vermin that they failed at "exterminating". And there were twice as many of them after the "extermination" as before they started. Amazing. Magical.

Tongue firmly planted in sarcastic cheek, in case you are not sure.

If it were true, it would be hilarious, because the only context in which such nonsense can be true is a comedy. But it is such absurd nonsense presented as fact, as 'history', accepted by so many people, used to control them, that it is simply deeply sad.

AHUGECAT wrote:
I am here because I am genuinely interested in revisionism.


I do not think so.

If you were "genuine" then you would read the detailed articles posted on the more well known sites re the thread, and thus be prepared. Starting one argument on one single item of pseudo-science, without being aware of the background of it, or of the progress (refutation), does not demonstrate "genuine" "interest".
Germany, get off your knees! Ernst Zündel.

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby greyswindir » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed May 11, 2011 4:33 pm)

It seems like AHUGECAT has disappeared. I wonder why?

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby Ray Barren » 8 years 1 month ago (Thu May 12, 2011 4:37 pm)

astro3 wrote:No-one should accept ‘AHUGECAT’’s argument (which he gets from Richard Green) that 300 ppm HCN gas is adequate for swift, lethal gassing: Fred Leuchter pointed out that the US cyanide gas chambers required 10,000 ppm of HCN to be assuredly lethal.


This is a distortion of Dr. Green's work. Scientific literature (such as reports from DuPont) does declare that 300ppmv is quickly lethal to humans. Dr. Green does not say though that 300 ppmv was used in the gas chambers.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/

Rudolf also bases his entire argument on no introduction holes being used for the gas chambers in Kremas II and III. This may be easily accepted on this forum, but outside of denier chopeful ircles, introduction columns are commonly seen as existing (based upon inventory lists, aerial photos, witness statements [Jews and non-Jews], ground photos). So for Rudolf to just take it that there was no columns for the gassing scenario he describes (to try to calculate cyanide exposure to walls) and ignore any possibility of such columns is less than honest.
I am new to the Holocaust debate because I never knew anyone who questioned the event in history. Here for good and free exchange of ideas on Holocaust.

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby Hannover » 8 years 1 month ago (Thu May 12, 2011 7:13 pm)

Ray, it would be really helpful if you actually read the Revisionist information at this forum.

Ray Barren wrote:
astro3 wrote:No-one should accept ‘AHUGECAT’’s argument (which he gets from Richard Green) that 300 ppm HCN gas is adequate for swift, lethal gassing: Fred Leuchter pointed out that the US cyanide gas chambers required 10,000 ppm of HCN to be assuredly lethal.


This is a distortion of Dr. Green's work. Scientific literature (such as reports from DuPont) does declare that 300ppmv is quickly lethal to humans. Dr. Green does not say though that 300 ppmv was used in the gas chambers.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/

Rudolf also bases his entire argument on no introduction holes being used for the gas chambers in Kremas II and III. This may be easily accepted on this forum, but outside of denier chopeful ircles, introduction columns are commonly seen as existing (based upon inventory lists, aerial photos, witness statements [Jews and non-Jews], ground photos). So for Rudolf to just take it that there was no columns for the gassing scenario he describes (to try to calculate cyanide exposure to walls) and ignore any possibility of such columns is less than honest.

Wrong, Ray. Rudolf does nothing of the kind. Rudolf simply took samples and showed the lack of cyanide that should have been present inside the impossible Auschwitz 'gas chambers' ... if the tall tales were true.

And contrary to your hollow claim, Revisionists accept nothing "easily", we use science, logic, and rational thought in our research rather than simply believing in received and mandated historical "facts".

see your 'Dr. Green' debunked here:
'Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111
specifically see the pages in the thread such as:
-THE STRANGE LOGIC OF RICHARD GREEN
- DR. GREEN'S FALLACY
And Ray, if you really want to be bold, read the entire thread and learn. Astro3, yours truly, and an assortment of Revisionists are there.

As for your aerial photos and alleged induction holes, well, you apparently missed these also:

Altered Aerial Photos and the Shadows of Doom
viewtopic.php?t=3249

Altered WWII Aerial Photos - The 'Smoking Guns'
viewtopic.php?t=506

And do show us your 'inventory lists'.

Revisionists are just the messengers, the utter impossibility of the ridiculous 'holocaust' story is the message. After all, Revisionist were once True Believers too.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby The Warden » 8 years 1 month ago (Sun May 15, 2011 9:42 am)

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/RudolfOnVanPelt.html

4. Analyses Conducted by the Polish Jan Sehn Institute

Prof. van Pelt is excessively quoting a paper published by three Polish Chemists in which they claimed of having refuted the Leuchter report.[van Pelt p. 307-312, 54] I have publicly accused them of a fraud and they never defended themselves against this accusation,[55] so it must me assumed that I am right. Without going into much chemical detail, let me summarize the main point which proof the dishonesty of these Polish authors:

The Poles claimed of not having understood how Iron Blue could possibly form in walls as a result of them being exposed to HCN gas:[54]

It is hard to imagine the chemical reactions and physicochemical processes that could have led to the formation of Prussian blue in that place

Hence, they did assume that the Iron Blue in the walls of the delousing chambers must have a different origin, e.g. stemming from paint:

We decided therefore to determine the cyanide ions using a method that does not induce the breakdown of the composed ferrum cyanide complex (this is the blue under discussion) […]

Although they knew about my well-founded suggestions for the mechanism involved when Iron Blue is being formed in walls as a result of gassings with HCN, and they knew of my arguments refuting claims that the Prussian Blue could stem from any sort of paint,[56] they decided to ignore them.
Hence, they chose a method of analysis which excluded the detection of Iron Blue compounds, and which eventually ended in analyses results presumably proving a similar cyanide content in both the delousing chambers and the alleged homicidal 'gas chambers', which allegedly proves the reality of the claims of mass gassing of human beings in homicidal 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz. A comparison of the results of the analyses made from brick and mortar samples taken by different persons shows this:

Image

In a subsequent correspondent with the Polish authors I asked for a scientific explanation for this and gave them irrefutable proof for the fact that Iron Blue can indeed be formed in walls when they are exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas.[57] The Polish authors were unable to give a scientific reason for their deliberate omission to detect Iron Blue and refused to admit that they had made a mistake.[58]

It is my conviction that it is not the task of any law court of this world to decide who is right and who is wrong in this struggle, as no judge will ever have the knowledge and the competence to decide this, and because finding the truth is exclusively a matter to be dealt with by the worldwide scientific community. But what can be judged by every reasonable man and woman is the question if these Polish authors behaved in a fair and formally correct way or not. Let me summarize their extremely unscientific and politically biased approach to the topic:

The most important task of a scientist is to try to understand what hasn't been understood so far. The Poles just did the opposite: they decided to ignore and exclude what they didn't understand (the formation or Iron Blue in walls expose to hydrogen cyanide).

The next important task of a scientist is to discuss other scientists' attempts to make understandable. The Poles just did the opposite: they decided to ignore and exclude from discussion what would perhaps made them (and others) understand.

Finally, in their article as well as in a letter to me, the Poles themselves stated that the purpose of their paper was to refute the "Holocaust Deniers" and to prevent Hitler and National Socialism from being whitewashed, i.e. their purpose was not to find out the truth, but to serve a political goal![58] Thus, they used unscientific methods in order to produce desired results for the purpose of achieving certain political goals.

Hence, they are scientific frauds. None of the three authors ever stood up against that accusation. Dr. Markiewicz died in 1997, and the remaining two co-authors have been silent about that ever since, like frauds hiding from being exposed.

Now, let me make some more remarks about the general value of the research conducted by the Poles which shows the massive lack of competence in general:

Even after an inquiry, they could not clarify completely what they mean with the following terms used in their paper: old/new, plaster/mortar, dry/moist. In order to make experiments reproducible, the exact conditions must be known, that is here: How many hours/days/weeks/months/years "new/old" were the samples? Which materials were used to make the "plaster/mortar"? To which conditions (temperature, humidity) were they expose before and during the gassing? Which amount of water is included in "dry/moist" samples?
When consulting the results of the experiments made by the Poles, one especially revealing fact can be observed: According to their results, the warm, dry, mostly CO2-free plaster (as it was present in delousing chambers) shows a level of 0.024 mg cyanide per kg sample material. The moist, cold, CO2-loaded mortar (as it would have been present in the supposed 'gas chambers' of crematoria II and III) shows a level of 0.388 mg/kg, a figure greater than that of the delousing chambers by a factor of 16. Fact is that the Polish authors claim in their paper that the supposed homicidal 'gas chambers' had no higher reactivity than the delousing chambers with respect to formation of Iron Blue! They contradict their own results!
In 1991 paper the Poles claimed against all expert literature that Iron Blue deteriorates under the influence of environmental influences, especially when exposed to acid rain.[59] As a mater of fact, Iron Blue is most stable exactly in a slightly acid medium as provided by acid rain. The Poles could have easily recognized that by looking at the outer walls of the delousing facilities in Birkenau (those buildings have no gutters, and thus a lot of rain flows down the walls). These walls were exposed to acid rain for more than 50 years, yet they are covered with Iron Blue still today (see my report[3] for photos). In contrary to that, most parts of the walls of the alleged 'gas chamber' of crematorium II, especially those spots where I took my samples, were protected from any environmental influence by the roof.
In a correspondence between Jan Markiewicz, Werner Wegner and me in 1990/91[60] J. Markiewicz openly admitted that he cannot explain the occurrence of blue patches on the exterior walls of the delousing facilities in Birkenau, and stated that it needs to be confirmed that this is indeed Iron Blue. While I did prove that these patches indeed consist of Iron Blue,[3] the Poles subsequently did nothing to verify this. This point would have disproved their theory that Iron Blue cannot be the result of a gassing with Zyklon B. They were aware of the problem since 1990/91, but chose not to solve it because this could have falsified their theory!
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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby AHUGECAT » 7 years 10 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:01 am)

greyswindir wrote:It seems like AHUGECAT has disappeared. I wonder why?

Because nothing what you guys are saying has ANYTHING to do with what I am saying. Hannover for example posted 3 articles that had nothing absolutely NOTHING to do with what I claim.

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby AHUGECAT » 7 years 10 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:04 am)

IncisiveOne wrote:Exactly.

And that amazing ability to get rid of 6.5 million bodies, without leaving a trace: no bone remains; no graves; no killing machines. Amazing. We should get the Germans to write next years CSI. Or better still, they should provide funerary services to the poor in America, they can do the job for twenty cents, $2.20 if you want an urn. Now, with that level of magical ability, they truly must be the master race.

But those magical Germans do have their blind spots. Eg. they are total losers at "extermination". Failed miserably. Now the whole world is controlled by the very same vermin that they failed at "exterminating". And there were twice as many of them after the "extermination" as before they started. Amazing. Magical.

You only need the coal to get fires started. The bodies themselves will then serve as fuel for the fire. Using this "argument" (if you can call it that) then you deny the Holodomor and Armenian genocide as well, right?

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby Jazz » 7 years 10 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:34 am)

AHUGECAT wrote:I am here because I am genuinely interested in revisionism.
AHUGECAT wrote:I am here because I am genuinely interested in revisionism.

AHUGECAT wrote:
greyswindir wrote:It seems like AHUGECAT has disappeared. I wonder why?

Because nothing what you guys are saying has ANYTHING to do with what I am saying. Hannover for example posted 3 articles that had nothing absolutely NOTHING to do with what I claim.

Typical :roll:

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby The Warden » 7 years 10 months ago (Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:22 am)

AHUGECAT wrote:You only need the coal to get fires started. The bodies themselves will then serve as fuel for the fire. Using this "argument" (if you can call it that) then you deny the Holodomor and Armenian genocide as well, right?


See Episode 23 here:
http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/on ... caust.html
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby Zulu » 7 years 10 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:38 am)

AHUGECAT wrote:You only need the coal to get fires started. The bodies themselves will then serve as fuel for the fire. Using this "argument" (if you can call it that) then you deny the Holodomor and Armenian genocide as well, right?

Your impression is contradicted by documented registers of coke's consumption under real working conditions
An important document allows to analyze the performance of the kind of ovens installed at Auschwitz during a sufficiently long period. I mean the time sheet of Gusen which reports the actual cremation data of a model of Topf's oven built with 2 furnaces x 2 muffles.

That time sheet of Gusen gives an average coke's consumption of 28.7 kg (28.72 kg) per corpse in hypothetical conditions of continuous use. "Hypothetical" means that the real values observed were extrapolated to an improbable continuous work on 24 h/24 h while the constructor recommended a pause after 8-10 h or work..

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby Hannover » 7 years 10 months ago (Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:44 pm)

hugecat said:
Because nothing what you guys are saying has ANYTHING to do with what I am saying. Hannover for example posted 3 articles that had nothing absolutely NOTHING to do with what I claim.

There are just some people whose 'holocaust' religion and Jewish supremacist ideology is so strong that it reminds me of the arguing couple when one of them puts their hands over their ears and yells ' I can't hearrrr you'. Hugecat is very similar to the irrational little characters, Ray Barren, Andrew Mathis, and Sergey Romanov, among others, who used to post here but absolutely refused to consider all the bullet proof points made against their hollow arguments. My mother used to refer to this situation as "talking to a tree".

Anyway, their posts are here to haunt them.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:09 am)

Hannover wrote:hugecat said:
Because nothing what you guys are saying has ANYTHING to do with what I am saying. Hannover for example posted 3 articles that had nothing absolutely NOTHING to do with what I claim.

There are just some people whose 'holocaust' religion and Jewish supremacist ideology is so strong that it reminds me of the arguing couple when one of them puts their hands over their ears and yells ' I can't hearrrr you'. Hugecat is very similar to the irrational little characters, Ray Barren, Andrew Mathis, and Sergey Romanov, among others, who used to post here but absolutely refused to consider all the bullet proof points made against their hollow arguments. My mother used to refer to this situation as "talking to a tree".

Anyway, their posts are here to haunt them.

- Hannover


Perhaps if you took the trouble to explain, respectfully, why you think the threads and articles in question are persuasive and left out the emotive personal attacks, and assertions that others' arguments are "hollow" while yours are "bullet proof", you might get farther. Some might regard attempting to discuss with you, Hannover, as a bit like "talking to a tree".

The Holocaust religion has convinced 99% of the planet so you can hardly blame individuals for believing it. "Softly, softly" will be more effective in reaching them than aggressive confrontation. Ahugecat may be lying and trolling when he claims to be open minded, but I'd wait for evidence before jumping to conclusions.

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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby Breker » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:48 pm)

Perhaps if you took the trouble to explain, respectfully, why you think the threads and articles in question are persuasive and left out the emotive personal attacks, and assertions that others' arguments are "hollow" while yours are "bullet proof", you might get farther. Some might regard attempting to discuss with you, Hannover, as a bit like "talking to a tree".

The Holocaust religion has convinced 99% of the planet so you can hardly blame individuals for believing it. "Softly, softly" will be more effective in reaching them than aggressive confrontation. Ahugecat may be lying and trolling when he claims to be open minded, but I'd wait for evidence before jumping to conclusions.

Looking over the thread, it seems to me that Hannover is tired of those who say they want information, but when it's given to them they just ignore it. For Hugecat to say that Hannover has not responded to him is false. Hugecat upped the rhetoric with his false statement:
Hannover for example posted 3 articles that had nothing absolutely NOTHING to do with what I claim.

Who has patience with those who ignore relevant responses? Not many.
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Re: Blue staining - why there is none

Postby Atigun » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:08 pm)

AHUGECAT claims that the LC100/human inhalation is 300ppm and is therefore an insufficient concentration to create blue staining in the AHGC. However, The CDC in its report, 'Toxicological Profile for Cyanide', disagrees with that. The report can be found at http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp8-c2.pdf It is claimed by an Auschwitz eyewitness that everyone in the AHGC perished in ~4 minutes. The CDC says that to cause such immediate cessation of respiration and heartbeat it requires a cyanide concentration equal to or greater than 2000 ppm. They also claim that for a LC50 after a 10 minute exposure requires a concentration of 524 ppm. So, if the eyewitness testimony and the CDC are to be believed, the minimum concentration of cyanide in the AHGC was 2000 ppm. Would that concentration be sufficient to cause blue staining?

The CDC also reported that repeated cyanide inhalation even with very small concentrations of cyanide would cause severe symptoms and eventual death. The study was based on animal experiments. It would logically follow that the AHGC were equipped with an extremely efficient ventilation system to prevent anyone in their vicinity from being poisoned or killed.
Last edited by Atigun2 on Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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