"A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

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pictorex
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"A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby pictorex » 9 years 6 months ago (Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:20 pm)

In a story that recently appeared on the BBC server in connection with the fiftieth anniversary of the Eichmann trial,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12912527
the interrogator Goldman, who also claims to have been an inmate at Auschwitz, states that there was "a great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz, taken from the crematoria, which was used in the winter to spread on the ice and snow in order to safeguard the Nazi officers from slipping. Has anyone else reported this alleged mountain of ash? It seems strange at first glance that only Nazi officers would have benefited from this measure, unless the ash was spread only in areas restricted to Nazi officers, or unless Nazi officers wore shoes or boots with particularly slippery soles.Would ash from crematoria even be suitable for the purpose? There surely would have been piles of coke around from the coal-fired furnaces, which would have been more suitable for spreading on ice and snow. I have read allegations that ashes from the crematoria were spread as fertilizer over nearby fields, but this is the first time I read of this particular use being made of them. The purpose of the allegation is evidently to stress a total disrespect for the dead on the part of the camp administration. That such a purpose can be discerned does not of course mean that the story is untrue, however unlikely it may appear to be. Has anything of the sort been reported by any other source?

A further novel allegation (to me at least) made by Goldman is that Eichmann at Auschwitz had demanded that every Jew be put to death because any who survived might one day seek revenge. Would Goldman, when at Auschwitz, have been in a position to know of such an order or demand being issued by Eichmann? Is it likely that Eichmann would have issued an order phrased in such defeatist terms? Defeatism was subject to strict punishments during the war. That the justification for the order appears unlikely does not yet mean that such an order was never issued by Eichmann. However if it was issued, it was certainly not carried out, as we know of numerous Jewish inmates being evacuated from Auschwitz in January 1945 ahead of the Red Army's advance and brought to camps in Germany. Is there any independent evidence of such a demand? In the story the allegation is used to justify Goldman's revenge against Eichmann, i.e., it works as a literary device. Eichmann expected revenge and he got it. The theme of revenge is characteristic of many other Holocaust narratives and may hark back to the Book of Esther and similar writings that glorify revenge. It is indicative of a mindset in which revenge is a duty and the Christian concept of forgiveness unthinkable or forbidden (cf. the title of Rudolf Vrba's book: "I Cannot Forgive". This can be read in the sense "I cannot bring myself to" or "I am not permitted to" -- the latter being the more likely interpretation). It is in any event remarkable that an official at the trial thinks in terms of revenge rather than justice. He seems unable to distinguish between the two concepts. That the allegation works as a literary device in this case does not mean that it is false, which is why I am asking whether any independent evidence of such a demand by Eichmann exists.

What I am concerned about is that these two elements in the BBC story appear to be new and are suggestive of a trend of embroidering the narrative in a way that today's readers would be likely to accept, given the general perception of what went on at Auschwitz in the last years of WWII. This would of course not be the case if they can be independently corroborated.

Here is the passage under discussion:

On 30 May, 1962, the only civil execution in Israel's history took place.
Prime Minister David Ben Gurion thought the trial would unite people
Interrogator Michael Goldman Gilad, was there.
He recalled that Eichmann at Auschwitz had demanded that every Jew be put to death because any who survived might one day seek revenge.
"Well, he was right," he told me, grimly.
After the execution, he was told to supervise the burning of the body and the scattering of Eichmann's ashes at sea, so there could be no neo-Nazi memorial.
Goldman Gilad explained that Eichmann's ashes were just enough to fill a two-litre container.
He was shocked, because in the extermination camps one of the jobs he had been forced to do was to spread ashes from the crematoria on the ice and snow, so that Nazi officers did not slip.
The mounds from the dead had formed "a great mountain of ash", so much more than the handful from Eichmann's body.

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 9 years 6 months ago (Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:20 am)

In Gas Oven Crematoria, there is no 'Ash' in anything like an ordinary sense of the Word.

The word 'Ash' is a figurative or romantic term in these contexts, even if technically any refractory could be called 'Ash' simply for remaining after a Fire has consumed whatever else it began with.

Once temperatures have been held above the burning point of Carbon, all that remains of a deceased person's Body, are the densest Calciferous refractory structues or portions of them, which had sufficient density to stay whole.

What this means in practice, is, when you open the Crematory Oven, you see ( some of, much of, or most of ) a clean, white (outlay of what remains of the actual ) Skeleton.

The intactness or completeness of this will vary with Bone density, so, very old or very young people or people who did not have dense Bones, will leave refractory Skeletal remains which are less intact than if the person were in the wider arena of middle age and healthy...and, those people who worked hard at physical Labor routinely, would leave a more dense and intact Skeleton, than those who had not.

Teeth tend to remain fairly well preserved, and, the Bones which remain are not as strong as they would have been in Life or if merely permitted to dry and season, but, are fairly strong none the less...or about like somewhat as low fired Clay or weaker forms of Tierra Cotta would be.

The practice typically has long been for the remaining Bones to be merely broken up into smal pieces or ground coursely, so as not to be too obviously 'Bones', and or to fit into Memorial Cannisters or Vases more easily, and, when ground fine, it is about as a sort of whitish-grey 'meal', or, Bone Meal.

No 'Ash' is produced in anything like the sense of Ashes from a Wood Fire or from a Cigarette, as people seem always to suppose Crematory remains would all-by-themselves be.

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby The Warden » 9 years 6 months ago (Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:36 am)

I've never heard of this great mound of ash. I have heard the fertilizer claims, along with the infamous vanishing ashes in the river claim.

First things first: Do we know where and when exactly in the camp this mound of ash is claimed to have been located?
Once these claims are specified, then aerial photos can be examined.

But seriously, at this point, why bother?
We already know it isn't there.

This is just another hybrid of hyperbole and sensationalism to maintain the Jewish victim industry.
To the Believers, "two steps forward and one step back" is still progress.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Kingfisher » 9 years 6 months ago (Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:55 pm)

Goldman Gilad explained that Eichmann's ashes were just enough to fill a two-litre container.
He was shocked, because in the extermination camps one of the jobs he had been forced to do was to spread ashes from the crematoria on the ice and snow, so that Nazi officers did not slip.

Nice "literary device" that. Notice how he moves seamlessly from Eichman's ashes to "ashes from the crematoria". Of course coke ashes from the crematoria would be used in this way. Get rid of some otherwise useless ash by putting it to good purpose. In wartime a useful building material like sand would not be available. I think that ash from the central heating boiler at my school might have been used this way.

Mountains of alleged human ash when the whole operation was supposed to be so top secret?

Despite the sickening lack of any kind of critical approach in the article*, some interesting things did get through.
When he came to Israel after the war, he, like many other Holocaust survivors, did not talk about what he had seen even to family and friends because other Israelis "didn't believe us".

Israeli Jews were Holocaust Deniers?

The Eichmann trial became a unifying national experience.
Tom Segev said Ben Gurion wanted everyone to recognise that "whatever the world owes to the victims, they now owe to Israel".

No comment necessary.

...as many as eight out of 10 Israeli high school children describing themselves as Holocaust "survivors".

So after the war Holocaust survivors were so few in number that they were afraid the rest of the population wouldn't believe them. Now, after appropriate education, 80% of kids too young even to be children of people who'd been in the camps call themselves "Holocaust survivors".

* "One of Eichmann's Israeli police interrogators, Michael Goldman Gilad, survived Auschwitz but his parents and sister had been murdered." Anyone who died at Auschwitz of epidemic or any other cause, or was moved on and not heard of again, was "murdered at Auschwitz". Another "literary device".

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Dresden » 9 years 6 months ago (Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:40 pm)

Wings said:

"In Gas Oven Crematoria, there is no 'Ash' in anything like an ordinary sense of the Word"

Then what word would you use in "an ordinary sense" to describe that which remains besides bones?

"The word 'Ash' is a figurative or romantic term in these contexts, even if technically any refractory could be called 'Ash' simply for remaining after a Fire has consumed whatever else it began with"

Are you using satire, or did you utter that without a smile?
Again, what would you call "any refractory" besides bones that "simply" remained?.....and what is the difference between "remaining", and "simply remaining"?

"Once temperatures have been held above the burning point of Carbon....."

What is the "burning point" of carbon?
Is it above or below the "burning point" of ruby, sapphire, or tungsten?

"all that remains of a deceased person's Body, are the densest Calciferous refractory structues or portions of them, which had sufficient density to stay whole"

So, what happened to the portions which didn't have sufficient density to "stay whole"?
Did the enter oblivion?

"What this means in practice, is, when you open the Crematory Oven, you see ( some of, much of, or most of ) a clean, white (outlay of what remains of the actual ) Skeleton"

So, if you put 150 lbs. of filet mignon in a brand new crematory oven, it would "disappear", and it would still look like a brand new oven?!?
I think youve been watching too much "I Dream of Jeanie", and "Bewitched"! :twisted:

"No 'Ash' is produced in anything like the sense of Ashes from a Wood Fire or from a Cigarette, as people seem always to suppose Crematory remains would all-by-themselves be"

So, wood and cigarettes produce ashes, but flesh doesn't?
This is complete obfuscation and twaddle!
You've entered the realm of "Holohoax Physics", and left the rest of us with nobody to guide us but Newton, Thompson, and Carnot.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 9 years 6 months ago (Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:56 am)

Hi Steve F,


I am sorry if you were unable to understand.

Yes, if you put 150 Pounds of Filet Mignon into a typical Gas Crematory Oven, there will be nothing whatever remaining after thr firing.


When people are Cremated in such Ovens, whether by the standards of 1898 or 1942 or 2011, all that is left are the denser sections of Bone...and, these look like what they are - 'Bones'.

These then are broken up or gound to whatever courseness or fine-ness, according to the policy of the Crematoria, and, for the convenience of their customers for putting into Vases or whatever.

If not ground into meal, the Bones are simply clean, white Bones...if possibly somewhat fragile.

People generally imagine Crematory 'Ash' to be like the Ashes which are found in Fireplaces, and I was wishing to explain that 'Ash' in the usual connotative sense, is not what remains after a person has been Cremated, "Bones" and Teeth are what remain, clearly intact and identifiable, as themselves.

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby trevor » 9 years 6 months ago (Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:03 pm)


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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Lohengrin » 9 years 6 months ago (Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:51 pm)

Well said, Allen: Please notice the phrase "skeletal remains." Not "ashes," but "skeletal remains." (Even the fragile rib bones are intact.)

The "ashes" were of course from the coke of the so-called "gas-generators" beneath the muffles. Per body was approx. 25-30 kg coke necessary, so each Krema used daily 10 (hours) x 15 (muffles) x 25 kg (coke), that produced approx. 10% coke-ash = 375 kg coke-ash daily. That is in 1 week for 4 Krema's 375 x 7 x 4 = 10.500 kg, e.g. 10 tons of coke-ashes per week.

As we can see on the photographs, the relatively big remains of human bones are totally unusably and absurd for strewing against slipperiness in winter.
This is not only ridiculous as such, but when the snow or ice is melted, the bone-particles left behind on the streets! :roll:

As a child, we had a stove at home that was burned with coke. In winter, my dad and our neighbors strew the coke-ashes (which was very fine, almost like sand) on the street, so people did not fall. Simply a deed of social decency. When the snow was melted, the coke-ash mixed with the street surface and was in short time totally invisible. (Much better for the environment than the tons of salt one uses nowadays in Winter!)

So this "human ashes strewing on the road" is again an absurd vicious and malicious "Holocaust" fake story. It simply was a useful application of an otherwise useless rest-product of coke of the cremation process.

And, oh yea: each Krema had a "mountain" of coke-ashes in its backyard, until the dustman came . . .

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 9 years 6 months ago (Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:14 am)

The refractory remains of an average Adult human, when Cremated in a Gas Crematory Oven, will weight from 5 to 7 Pounds.

Cremations done with Wood will have Wood Ash occuring from the combustion of the Wood, with Ash in this sense, being the refractory remains of Wood, and, Cremations done with Coal or Coke, will have Clinkers or related Glass-Like refractory remains, of the Coal or Coke...and, calcined Bones, being the refractory remains of the person, where the Bones will have a totally different appearence and solidity compared to the Wood Ash or clinker materials.

The Thermal energy necessary to cremate a human Body, is the equivelent in Heat Work, of about 1800 degrees Farenheight for two to three hours.

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 9 years 6 months ago (Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:34 am)

Video showing typical ( if maybe on the light side, so, a child or very old person I suppose, ) refractory remains of a human cremation.

Also shows other steps associated with the usual subsequent grinding of the remains into a coarse meal or powder, depending.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLlcn1KCdE8

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Dresden » 9 years 6 months ago (Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:27 am)

@Wings:

In the video, the person was sweeping out both bones and ashes; but nothing close to the amount of ashes I expected, so I'll meet you half-way.

I wish the video was clearer.
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 9 years 6 months ago (Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:57 am)

I think Wings has made some really valuable and interesting contributions to this discussion--but, I suspect the video that he has linked to is of a "pet," probably a dog, and NOT a human being at all. That may explain the small amount of cremains. The accompanying audio gives some info about human cremations--but the video is probably only an animal. In many communities, deceased pets must be cremated by law to avoid contaminating ground water.

I am interested in how that crematory oven was fired--natural gas, or electricity, or what!

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 9 years 6 months ago (Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:45 am)

The format on this forum has seemed very difficult for me.

I log in, go to a page, then it insists I log in again, I go to the Page, then it insists I log in again, etc.

Anyway, the Video showed what I believe is a Natural Gas Kiln/Muffle/Oven, or whatever one may call it.

Priciples of construction and operation are roughly quite similar with Crematory and Ceramic Firings - fuels able to provide enough Caloric energy, time or Heat Work for the result ( timew and tempoerature ratio ), and, a well made, snug, durable insulating Chamber to conitain the Heat while permitting the combusted Gasses to escape.

Natural Gas has long been the favored method when possible.

Any fuel historically associated with firing a ceramic Kiln, can be or has been used for firing Crematory Ovens/Kilns - Wood, Kerosene or other Fuel Oils, Natural Gas, Coal or Coke.

Open Pyres as are done in India of course require quite a bit of Wood, and, are very ineffecient, even with emacited and hence quite light subjects.

Areas which do not or did not have readily available Natural Gas, would tend to rely on Fuels which were available, or, would not bother trying to Cremate if fuel sources were expensive or logisticaly inconvenient.

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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Charles Traynor » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed May 04, 2011 10:10 am)

pictorex wrote:In a story that recently appeared on the BBC server in connection with the fiftieth anniversary of the Eichmann trial,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12912527
the interrogator Goldman, who also claims to have been an inmate at Auschwitz, states that there was "a great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz, taken from the crematoria, which was used in the winter to spread on the ice and snow in order to safeguard the Nazi officers from slipping. Has anyone else reported this alleged mountain of ash? It seems strange at first glance that only Nazi officers would have benefited from this measure, unless the ash was spread only in areas restricted to Nazi officers, or unless Nazi officers wore shoes or boots with particularly slippery soles.Would ash from crematoria even be suitable for the purpose? There surely would have been piles of coke around from the coal-fired furnaces, which would have been more suitable for spreading on ice and snow. I have read allegations that ashes from the crematoria were spread as fertilizer over nearby fields, but this is the first time I read of this particular use being made of them. The purpose of the allegation is evidently to stress a total disrespect for the dead on the part of the camp administration. That such a purpose can be discerned does not of course mean that the story is untrue, however unlikely it may appear to be. Has anything of the sort been reported by any other source?


A Jew, Yehuda Bacon, claims to have spread ashes on paths as a member of the children’s work unit at Krema III during the 1963 Frankfurt Auschwitz trial. I do not recall reading anything about children’s work units at the Kremas in the Birkenau Sonderkommando memoirs or official histories of the camp. Perhaps I have not read extensively enough? Bacon appears to be just another Jewish charlatan intent on insulting Europeans, and Germans in particular with his gas chamber stories. Here is a short 2 minute video of this very peculiar man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zidNvLUPSt0
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Re: "A great mountain of ash" at Auschwitz

Postby Hannover » 9 years 5 months ago (Wed May 04, 2011 4:49 pm)

A Jew, Yehuda Bacon, claims to have spread ashes on paths as a member of the children’s work unit at Krema III during the 1963 Frankfurt Auschwitz trial. I do not recall reading anything about children’s work units at the Kremas in the Birkenau Sonderkommando memoirs or official histories of the camp. Perhaps I have not read extensively enough? Bacon appears to be just another Jewish charlatan intent on insulting Europeans, and Germans in particular with his gas chamber stories.

'Children's work units at Auschwitz'?

Yet another example of liars not keeping their lies straight. According to the storyline, 'old people, children, and those unfit for work were gassed upon arrival'.

Debunking this nonsense is too easy.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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