If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions go?

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Kingfisher
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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 9 months ago (Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:49 pm)

Balsamo wrote:Especially in the case of the Dutch Jews who enjoyed 3 centuries of complete freedom and were therefore completly assimilated...they were DUTCH ! They had nothing in common with their eastern counterparts. Even if they were sent to Vilna, why didn't they come back? Don't tell me they choosed to stay in those great socialist countries ? and Israel were not easily available until 1948.

No, so the only explanation is that the Germans murdered them systematically? There are a whole range of possible and partial answers, none of which I can prove any more than you can.
1. Deliberately murdered by Germans at local level.
2. Deliberately murdered by Russians at local level.
3. Died of disease, exposure, exhaustion, starvation etc. If trapped behind the Russian lines without money what were the chances of them making it back or even surviving?
4. Were caught up in the fighting and killed.
5. Were deported by the Russians to labour or prison camps, or simply to the interior, where they may have lived or died.
6. Survived to the end of the war, but were trapped behind the Iron Curtain.
7. Went to Israel, USA or elsewhere.
8. Returned to Holland. Someone did an analysis of what happened to the persons in Anne Frank's entourage and the number of survivors was quite high. I don't think I could find it again though.

I'm with you on the injustice of the deportations, though I have to add that war is a whole collection of unjust acts, most of which can be explained, but only justified by the terrible rationale of total war.

The Dutch were the exception in Western Europe. The largest group, the French Jews (not the same thing as Jews in France), were not deported en masse. Nor, I believe were the Belgians, but you will have better knowledge than me on that.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Hektor » 7 years 9 months ago (Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:38 am)

Except for being trapped somewhere else, Central Europe in 1945 wasn't exactly the most attractive place to stay in as it was damn poor.
There may be some differences between Dutch Jews and the Eastern European counter parts, but Jews are generally pretty mobile.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby borjastick » 7 years 9 months ago (Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:59 am)

This thread has been very interesting to follow but I would like to add a few points which I accept have been mentioned elsewhere, but are relevant here also.

The assumption of missing millions is a falsehood to start with because as anyone who has investigated this issue is aware, the figures are top down guess work only. Regardless of the 'real' numbers of jews in europe before the war (what is europe anyway?) we all know that hundreds of thousands had left Germany and western european countries in the run up to the war. Therefore the figures are wrong. Then we know that borders changed -Poland/Germany/Czechoslovakia etc, thus trapping many jews and of course others, notably Polish catholics. Plus of course the iron curtain was drawn across eastern Germany and eastern europe and acted as a veil against freedom of movement and truth.

As I have said before the numbers game of the holocaustian brand guardians is the stuff of legend. They assume that all jews in the mid 1930s in any town and not there in the post war period were killed. Tosh!

Add into this melting pot the numbers clearly explained elsewhere last week concerning the compensation claims of 5-6 million jews post war, even though they couldn't possibly be victims of the holocaust.

So where did the millions go? If they went anywhere they went everywhere, from 1933 onwards. Oh and they certainly didn't just disappear.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Hektor » 7 years 6 months ago (Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:57 pm)

borjastick wrote:...The assumption of missing millions is a falsehood to start with because as anyone who has investigated this issue is aware, the figures are top down guess work only. Regardless of the 'real' numbers of jews in europe before the war (what is europe anyway?) we all know that hundreds of thousands had left Germany and western european countries in the run up to the war. Therefore the figures are wrong. Then we know that borders changed -Poland/Germany/Czechoslovakia etc, thus trapping many jews and of course others, notably Polish catholics. Plus of course the iron curtain was drawn across eastern Germany and eastern europe and acted as a veil against freedom of movement and truth......

And we do have uncontradicted testimony in a hostile court-room environment:
"....The Reichsfuehrer SS, so he said, had received an order from the Fuehrer to round up all the Jews of Europe and to settle them in the Northeast of Europe, in Russia. ..."
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7469

Does that settle the question sufficiently?

Also interesting how Jews "got murdered" with the narrative changing:
BUNDESARCHIV R2/GB
Federal Archives

Birth name: Hans Heinz Hanauer
Place of Birth: Berlin
Origin/Descent: JJNN (2 Jewish grandparents and 2 non-Jewish grandparents.)
Place of Residence: Spreenhagen
Address: Umschulungsbetrieb Gut Winkel
Gut Winkel Training Center

Memorial book. Victims of the persecution of Jews under the Nazi regime in Germany 1933-1945:
Name: Hanauer, Hans Heinz Residence: Berlin Place of Birth: Berlin Date of Birth: 19.06.1918 Missing/Deported 1943 Destination: Auschwitz

Memorial book. Sacrifice the prosecution of Jews under the national-socialistic tyranny in Germany 1933-1945
Birth name: Hans Heinz Hanauer
Place of Birth: Berlin
Origin/Descent: JJNN (2 Jewish grandparents and 2 non-Jewish grandparents.)
Place of Residence: Spreenhagen
Address: Umschulungsbetrieb Gut Winkel Gut Winkel Training Center
http://irememberitlikeitwasyesterday.bl ... nauer.html

Note the "Umschulungsbetrieb"....
And then on facebook:
The pictures were saved by my great grandmother who had them sewn into her clothing by the women who worked in the family clothing factory.
My father Uri Hanauer was sent to Theresienstadt on Sept. 8, 1944 along with his mother Ursula Rosenfeld-Hanauer and his grandfather Jonas Rosenfeld and they were liberated on June 7, 1945.
My grandfather Hans Heinz Hanauer was murdered in Auschwitz on March 31, 1943.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/59925122 ... 260027224/

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby tomtruthteller » 7 years 6 months ago (Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:55 am)

Anders:

Here I thought we could discuss what happened to the Jews, time in 1939-1945, in Germany and in German-occupied countries, unless they are mass-murdered in extermination camps (through the gas, executions, etc.), labor / death camps (executions, starvation, hard, inhuman work, etc.), or on the Eastern Front (executions, shootings, etc.)?

I wonder what your explanation for this, you who believe that the Holocaust was a hoax? Please explain to me what happened to the Jews in German-controlled countries / ground, unless they were murdered? Let us discuss this.


Anders, the origianl death toll claim by the Majdanek museum staff was 2 million. They now claim 78,000. (Mostly Jews for both figures.)

They also used to claim that there were 7 homocidal gas chambers in the camp, but now claim that there were only two.

I wonder what your explanation for that is, and if you believe that the alleged Majdanek Holocaust story is a hoax?

Also, could you please explain to me what happened to the 1.922 million people (mostly Jews) who did not die there?

And could you please explain to me what happened to the 78,000 (mostly Jews) that supposedly did die there?

Let us discuss this.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby EtienneSC » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:29 am)

Here is an interesting case of a survivor being deported East from Soviet occupied Poland to the USSR:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/arts-ents ... 2013012899
Last edited by EtienneSC on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby EtienneSC » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:32 am)

Here is an interesting case of a survivor being deported East from Soviet occupied Poland to the USSR:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/arts-ents ... 2013012899

"I was born in Krakow, Poland, in January 1932, an only child. My father was a lawyer and the son of a wealthy factory owner and landowner. We only spoke Polish at home but a governess taught me Hebrew.

We were in our holiday house in the country when war broke out, and never went home. We went east to where my aunt had a big estate. We travelled by train, and horse and cart, and were bombed on the way by German planes. We didn’t realise that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had already carved Poland up.

After a week, the Russians ordered the landowners out. We went to live in Brody, which is now in Ukraine. We were in a little rented room. Circumstances were very difficult. Eventually, all the Poles who had registered to go back home were transported to Siberia in big cattle trucks. I was just eight at the time. There were 50 or 60 people in the cattle truck. Once a day the Russian soldiers would bring a sort of bucket with some soup and some bread, if you were lucky. It was just dreadful. The sanitary arrangements were horrendous. We ended up at a camp for political prisoners, where we spent the winter.

In June 1941 Germany attacked Russia and, instead of being enemies, the Polish prisoners became friends and allies, so were allowed to leave. But my family decided to stay because we felt, as Jews, they might be safer there. They never believed Hitler would get as far as Siberia.

But as autumn approached we decided we had to go. We didn’t think we would survive another winter. A raft was built and we floated 200 kilometres down the River Chulym. My mother managed to get some oats but they were really oats that you feed to horses. She used water to make little cakes with it, but I couldn’t swallow it. It was very rough.

We kept travelling and ended up in the Asian republics. After a long train journey we got to Kazakhstan, and eventually Bukhara. The family rented a tiny room. My father got work in a communal farm, but he died of typhus. My mother had it, too, but she survived, though she later contracted dysentery and malaria. She wasn’t able to feed me, and I was put into an orphanage.

After many vicissitudes we were repatriated to Poland in May 1946. But the place had changed for the worse – 26 Jews died in the Kielce Pogrom in July, so my mother decided to send me to Britain to my father’s sister.

My aunt was Regina Schoental, a respected academic. She had got her BSc and PhD in chemistry from Krakow University and had come to England in 1938, where she was working on penicillin, and later on cancer research. When I arrived she was working in Glasgow. I went to Laurel Bank School, did very well, and later studied medicine at Glasgow University. I married an older man, Henry, a GP, when I was 20. We had two children, Nina and Peter.

I visited Krakow a few years ago but I did not feel at home. The Jewish quarter used to teem with life but it was now empty. I had the feeling that if my mother hadn’t taken me and run, east and away, we would both be dead and my eight grandchildren would not exist. My grandparents died in the gas chambers, which is just horrendous.

Edited by Russell Leadbetter. The full transcript of this interview can be found on gatheringthevoices.com. Gathering The Voices, which received £45,000 from the Heritage Lottery Fund, is led by Angela Shapiro, an academic at Glasgow Caledonian University."

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby skeptical » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:33 am)

When Islam swept through the Middle East and Africa what happened to the Christians and Jews? Could it be that the majority of folks aren't concerned with defending any particular god or faith? Maybe some of the "Jews" of Europe made a rational decision that being "Jewish" wasn't the best way forward in the fourth and fifth decades of the twentieth century. If the government declared tomorrow that owners of green cars will receive a subsidy and owners of blue cars will pay a tax the market share of green cars will rise.
It seems pretty clear that Jews, young and old, were being urged, in the strongest terms, to assimilate by the German government... Why do we assume that they didn't? Almost any belief, ethical, moral, social seems to be malleable. Sure, there are dedicated people of every faith, willing to die for their version of the mystery but I think that most folks, of every faith, just happened to be born into that belief and when push comes to shove they will give up their version of god long before they give up their life.
Maybe the round up was based on family trees and my thoughts are unsupported by facts but I think that there were chances for folks to slip away, take new names, new lives. If your parents decided that hiding, changing religious affiliation, was the best course of action how would those, a generation or two hence, even know that they had once been Jews?
So maybe, a goodly number of the missing Jews are simply presently self identifying as Catholics or Lutherans or secular humanists.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby borjastick » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:53 pm)

You'll notice that the report by this woman is full of details about times, places, health issues, transport etc. All very captivating and on the face of it believable. Then she throws in the killer line 'my grandparents died in the gas chambers.' No details or dates or background info at all, which leads me to think she knows zero about it but was 'told' of this tragedy and so just trots it out without question.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Barrington James » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:56 pm)

Where’d the Jews all go? This question has been answered very well first of all by Butz, and then recently by Thomas Dalton and Samuel Crowell with arguments based around the population of Jews in 1939 compared to the population in 1945. Their studies show a that as many as 500, 000 Jews might have died in the holocaust….or about 10% of the Jews in Europe before the war.

However I still think the best easy guess comes from Yad Vashem itself: It published in 2003 that two of their studies showed that there were approximately a million Holocaust survivors still alive in the year 2000. Now if one considers that it is reasonable to consider that at least 250, 000 Jewish families such as that of Madeleine Albright , John Kerry and even Nancy Pelosi came to America and dropped their Jewish affiliation, more or less, and considering the hardships the Jews had to endure during the war and the age of the survivors due to the number of children who died in the camps, it is reasonable to assume rate of death of the Holocaust survivors per year for 55 years after the war must have been between 2 to 3 percent, let’s say 2.5 %, then the number of Jews who survived the holocaust must have been about 1,250,000 divided by 0.975 to the 55’th or 5 million….So how many Jews died in the holocaust? If we knew exactly how many Jews were in Nazi Europe before the war we could easily figure out how many Jews died by subtraction…but it certainly wasn’t six million.
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby truth » 7 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:35 pm)

Interestingly, there are websites out there who list all the names of the ?victims. I often wonder, how many names got conformed by revisionists? Recently, I came across even a German website which claims to have almost had 6 million names together but lost the link. It will be hard to confirm each story as truth or hearsay. I mean some people make up stories to get to the money scheme the Germans got imposed by the inhuman winners of the war. This whole thing has degenerated into nothing more than a materialistic enterprise.

It's an oddity, on one hand there are so many names and even faces and on official websites - some of which claim that millions of names are still missing, while other websites claim they have almost all the 6 million names together. It is hard to know who is really who, or if names are changed so they can claim even to be 2 victims (just an odd idea).

Anyway, the database of names is huge: One wonders how this is possible? How did they find the dead records?
https://www.google.com/search?client=op ... 49&bih=472

Recently, someone said that they fear the HC would be forgotten eventually. That won't happen because it is a religious belief (punished by law if you can't believe parts of it) - evidence matters really little. But, it is important to put all the crimes against humanity on an equal footage in regards to suffering.

Anyway, how can we know if the names are real names? It feels like so many people can't lie and yet - the HC story can't be trusted as told - because the self-fulfilling prophecies of the 6 million people (twice actually) necessary which are needed to make/force a Messiah to come, :/ through the blood and suffering of rest of humanity of course (and who will be blamed) :(

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Renewal » 7 years 5 months ago (Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:50 pm)

truth wrote:Recently, someone said that they fear the HC would be forgotten eventually.


Why would they fear that? Everything has been forgotten, since the dawn of time. It has to be forgotten. Otherwise the suffering would never end. No, not theirs but the suffering they themselves are imposing upon others.


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