The Terrible Secret

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proxyserver
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The Terrible Secret

Postby proxyserver » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon May 23, 2011 4:00 pm)

On page 77 of Walter Laqueur's The Terrible Secret (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London 1980 -- http://www.amazon.com/Terrible-Secret-S ... 0140061363 )is the following: "...the first news that Hitler had actually ordered the extermination of European Jewry by gassing was received by Dr. Riegner, the representative of the World Jewish Congress in Switzerland, from a German industrialist in July 1942. Riegner sent the following cable to London and Washington:

(Begins). Received alarming report that in Furhrer's headquarters plan discussed and under consideration according to which all Jews in countries occupied or controlled Germany numbering 3 1/2-4 millions should after deportation and concentration in East be exterminated at one blow to resolve once for all the Jewish Question in Europe stop the action reported planned for autumn methods under discussion including prussic acid stop we transmit information with all reservation as exactitude cannot be confirmed stop informant stated to have close connections with highest German authorities and his reports generally speaking reliable. (Ends)."

The important point here is that the number of Jews considered to be under the control of the Nazis is said by Dr. Riegner, who should know about these matters, to be 3 1/2-4 millions, and this is not contradicted by Walter Laqueur, an avowed Zionist, in his text; and such a number is in accordance with Walter Sanning ( http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Easte ... 0939484110 ). Of course, the number of Jews controlled by the Nazis is a contentious point, with present-day exterminationists claiming that more than 10 million Jews coming under the control of the Nazis. But if Dr. Riegner is correct, then surely there cannot have possibly have been a "Holocaust" in the sense that 6 million Jews were deliberately exterminated, either by means of deliberate murder, or placed in lethal living conditions; as, in qualitative terms, there would not have been a quantitative basis for a deliberate extermination policy, especially since, at least inadvertently, there were many Jews who perished in lethal living conditions; moreover, although it is difficult to known exactly how many Jews survived life under the Nazis, it could be assumed that it would have been something approaching more than a million ( http://www.globalfire.tv/nj/03en/history/holostats.htm ). Thus the Nazis were undoubtedly guilty of ethnic cleansing, which, at least inadvertently, placed many Jews in lethal living conditions, which, in itself, should have resulted in capital punishment for those Nazi officials involved, but could not have involved a deliberate policy of physical extermination, which is essentially entailed by the "Holocaust".

Furthermore on page 93 of Laqueur's book there is the following: "In October 1942 the Jewish Telegraphic Agency learned of the Riegner cable and published its gist without attribution. In November Rabbi Stephen Wise (head of the World Jewish Congress) was asked to come to Washington and was told by Undersecretary Sumner Welles that the additional information received by the State Department confirmed the deepest fears, releasing him from silence. He told a press conference in Washington that he had learnt through sources confirmed by the State Department that half the estimated 4 million Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe had been slain in an 'extermination campaign'." (footnote 29: New York Herald Tribune 25 November 1942) Thus even Rabbi Wise subscribed to the notion that only, at most, 4 million Jews came under the control of the Nazis (which would include Nazi-occupied Russia, surely) apparently, which is surely disastrous as far as the notion of a Jewish "holocaust" is concerned, as advocated by present-day exterminationists. If Rabbi Wise, therefore, the leading Jew organizationally in the world at that time, did not know how many Jews were under the control of the Nazis, then who would know? (Probably the exterminationists might see fit to bring up the Korherr statistics; but might be simply be the case that the Nazis had a vested interest in exaggerating the number of Jews under their control, in the light of the general world anti-semitic climate of opinion in those times? So what's new?)

The book by Walter Laqueur The Terrible Secret is subtitled "An Investigation into the Suppression of Information about Hitler's 'Final Solution'", is certainly an informative book for any student of the "Holocaust". What is significant about the book is that it is one great exercise in question begging, as it works on the assumption that all the Allied forces opposing the Axis powers, including significant sections of world Jewry, were misguided in denying what we would regard today as "Holocaust" propaganda, especially if we give credance to "Holocaust" revisionism. Laqueur, who is a very sophisticated propagandist, would never consider the notion that the basic reason why the Allied powers did not heed the "Holocaust" propaganda of particular Jewish organisations was because it was obviously untrue, as it could not be confirmed by Allied intelligence services. For instance, the Polish resistance associated with the Home Army was quite supportive of Jewish "Holocaust" claims; but it should be apparent that their support was based on the fact that, after the Nazis were defeated, the Soviet Russians would virtually be an occupying force in Poland, so that, the Home Army, by supporting the Jews in their "Holocaust" claims, hoped to have the support of World Jewry in having the Western Allies forestall a Soviet takeover of Poland, which, of course, was in accordance with the basic anti-semitic belief of the conservative Poles that the Jews basically controlled the Western Allies.

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Re: The Terrible Secret

Postby fountainhead » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon May 23, 2011 6:35 pm)

I'm relatively new to revisionism so I'm still doing a lot of 'beginner' reading. Is there any truth to the message from the industrialist to Riegner? Or does David Irving's assertion that Hitler had no knowledge of an extermination program, if there was one, still hold true?
Who controls the past controls the future.
Who controls the present controls the past.

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Re: The Terrible Secret

Postby Jazz » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue May 24, 2011 8:46 pm)

Ahmadinejad: Zionists Don't Allow Holocaust To Be Discussed Freely

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy2aDpvF1-M[/youtube]

Ahmadinejad Meeting With Anti-Zionist Jews

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xA1DbBAcOQ[/youtube]

Anti-Zionist Jewish Protesters

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY[/youtube]



June 11, 1900 New York Times - Page 7

Rabbi Wise wrote:There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favour of Zionism"


Image

The Transfer agreement:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCX62OpLggA[/youtube]

Rabbi Stephen Wise @ 3:15

proxyserver you're the biggest troll ever. The only reason why no one goes on Ro*do*h is because it's run by a bunch of JDL trolls who distort the truth and cry anti semitism. Without really debating anything, they're just like "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED DEAL WITH IT"

fountainhead I suggest you watch "The Great Holocaust Trial" and the video's on my channel :)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG9-_0GCJFg[/youtube]

Hitler's order to "exterminate" the Jews was verbal, there's no document which means there's no evidence.

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Re: The Terrible Secret

Postby nathan » 8 years 10 months ago (Wed May 25, 2011 7:02 am)

Laqueur’s The Terrible Secret is certainly a powerful revisionist text. TTS makes it clear that the Auschwitz death factory could not have functioned between mid 1942 and mid 1944 without Allied knowledge; and it makes it fairly clear, if read critically, that there was no such Allied knowledge. Riegner’s 1942 two reports say nothing about Auschwitz however, even though the reports are said to be ultimately based – via hearsay at four anonymous removes – on the gossip of a garrulous and drunken Nazi at a party held for Himmler during his visit to Auschwitz in July 1942. The question here is not what Hitler knew but what the Allies can be said to have known

I do not see why Proxyserver thinks Riegner’s four million figure is important. The Riegner’ second report of October 22 says that:

“Four million Jews are on the verge of complete annihilation by a deliberate policy consisting of starvation, the Ghetto-system of slave labour , deportation under inhuman conditions and organised mass murder by shooting, poisoning and other methods. This policy of total destruction has now been repeatedly been proclaimed by Hitler and is now being carried out.”


This is pitched more reasonably than Riegner’s August telegram involving prussic acid, the one which had met so much incredulity. Not extermination “at single blow” but annihilation by a variety of blows - “poisoning” by some undefined method now being last and least - is now pictured. And four million seems entirely reasonable as a rough estimate those who might “on the verge” of complete annihilation in Autumn 1942 - always supposing annihilaton to have been imminent. The core of the estimate would be the two million or so Polish Jews who had not fled to Russia. It is true that in 1945 a World Jewish Congress think-tank did calculate as 9.6 million the total number of pre-war Jews at risk. This they did by adding up the latest national census figures taken before each Axis takeover, and that to me also seems reasonable. But I would not expect Reigner, demanding urgent action in October 1942, to attempt an exact demographic study of the current scene. Well over a million Jews, living in places like Hungary and Rumania would not enter into any calculation for imminent removal in July 1942. Well over a million eastern Jews were believed to have perished by firing squad already. And well over a million Jews were were known to have emigrated or fled from all Axis-dominated lands since the latest pre-invasion census

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Re: The Terrible Secret

Postby stefanob » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon May 30, 2011 6:40 pm)

proxyserver wrote:On page 77 of Walter Laqueur's The Terrible Secret (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London 1980 -- http://www.amazon.com/Terrible-Secret-S ... 0140061363 )is the following: "...the first news that Hitler had actually ordered the extermination of European Jewry by gassing was received by Dr. Riegner, the representative of the World Jewish Congress in Switzerland, from a German industrialist in July 1942. Riegner sent the following cable to London and Washington:

(Begins). Received alarming report that in Furhrer's headquarters plan discussed and under consideration according to which all Jews in countries occupied or controlled Germany numbering 3 1/2-4 millions should after deportation and concentration in East be exterminated at one blow to resolve once for all the Jewish Question in Europe stop the action reported planned for autumn methods under discussion including prussic acid stop we transmit information with all reservation as exactitude cannot be confirmed stop informant stated to have close connections with highest German authorities and his reports generally speaking reliable. (Ends)."


So, we have a zionist author who says that a Jewish leader received news about Hitler's decision to exterminate the jews, and the source was "a German industrialist"... I do hope the book provides info about WHO this industrialist is (there was more than one in Germany), what his motivations, what he exactly said and possibility to verify his news... you know, that type of things that make a source reliable and keep it apart from mere hearsay.
If these data are not available, you and Laqueur have nothing for us to debate and you really had better move the thread to rodoh, they will welcome it.
I am not a native english speaker, so please forgive errors and weird syntax

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Re: The Terrible Secret

Postby nathan » 8 years 10 months ago (Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:41 am)

I have just noticed that Stefanob Monday May 30 wrote:

I do hope the book provides info about WHO this industrialist is (there was more than one in Germany), what his motivations, what he exactly said and possibility to verify his news... you know, that type of things that make a source reliable and keep it apart from mere hearsay


More than one German industrialist/spy was credited - after his death - with “breaking the silence”. Franz Josef Messner, who apparently supplied accurate information on the synthetic oil production, additionally [ according to Joseph Serpico, Piercing the Reich, 1979] gave Allan Dulles early confirmation of an extermination plant at Auschwitz. But Neal Petersen, the serious authority on Dulles, says that OSS materials on the gas chambers are “inexplicably meagre.”


Eduard Schulte was reluctantly and evasively nominated by Riegner himself - but only after Schulte’s death. Schulte was another Dulles agent, one who apparently supplied accurate information about the German rocket program. Laqueur and Breitman co-authored – after Schultes death - a book about him which was actually called Breaking the Silence(1986). Laqueur’s Terrible Secret was a serious book in spite of itself, but Breaking the Silence is written in the manner of an airport thriller. L and B added novelistic padding to grow a full-length bestseller out of the - inexplicably meagre - evidence that Schulte really was the man.

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Re: The Terrible Secret

Postby proxyserver » 8 years 9 months ago (Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:15 pm)

fountainhead wrote:I'm relatively new to revisionism so I'm still doing a lot of 'beginner' reading. Is there any truth to the message from the industrialist to Riegner? Or does David Irving's assertion that Hitler had no knowledge of an extermination program, if there was one, still hold true?


First of all, it is important to note that Jazz shows his ignorance apparently by quoting Rabbi Stephen Wise in 1900 talking about 6 million Jews in Europe, which has nothing to do with what I was talking about, which was that Rabbi Wise believed apparently that only about 4 million came under the control of the German Nazis in WW2. Generally they do not like me in this discussion forum because I am a "Holocaust" agnostic, and, as such, although I do not believe the exterminationist "Holocaust" narrative, I believe it is virtually impossible to know the full truth of the "Holocaust", because the subject is so politically obsfuscated, by both the exterminationists and revisionists, many of the latter, being legitimately politically on the Far Right, are far too inclined to disbelieve that the Nazis were not, at least, guilty of malacious neglect, as perhaps is demonstrated by the following quote from Hitler's Table Talk: "From the rostrum of the Reichstag I prophesied to Jewry that in the event of war's proving inevitable, the Jew would disappear from Europe. That race of criminals has on its conscience the two million dead of the first World War, and now already hundreds of thousands more. Let nobody tell me that all the same we can't park them in the marshy parts of Russia! Who is worrying about our troops? It's not a bad idea, by the way that public rumour attributes to us a plan to exterminate the Jews. Terror is a salutary thing." http://www.davnet.org/kevin/articles/table.html

As far as the quote from Riegner is concerned there is certainly no reason to believe there was any notion about physically exterminating the Jews entertained by the Nazis (I was only concerned about the idea that there were only four million Jews, at most, who came under Nazi control, which could be mistaken). If the revisionists are generally correct, then the notion of an exterminationist "Holocaust" was certainly a Zionist invention (not apparently believed by the Allies during the war, who were informed by their intelligence services), designed to ensure that they were enabled to establish the Zionist entity of Israel, at the expense of the Arabs. Thus, if there is any reason to seek to know the truth about the "Holocaust", it is to perhaps to persuade the Jews of the world that they do not need a homeland, and that, in the near future, there will be a real nuclear "Holocaust", as the Arab Islamists seek to retrieve their Holy ground in Palestine.

As regards David Irving, what he has to say about a sort of "Holocaust" occurring behind Hitler's back, is, in my opinion, a very dubious notion, although it could be partly correct, since Irving claims to have documentary proof for his theory, although he has not deigned to share this information, as far as I know. It should be remembered that Irving is a professional historian, who claims not to be primarily concerned with the "Holocaust", and so, as a writer, he would perhaps be mainly concerned with books being published, which, as they say, the traffic will bear.

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Re: The Terrible Secret

Postby nathan » 8 years 9 months ago (Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:58 am)

Jazz cannot have shown any "ignorance" by simply reproducing a newspaper cutting. He did allow an obvious typo ("1900") to slip through. We all do that. Proxyserver should have simply noted the typo and made whatever point he was trying to make. He seems to be saying - in so many words - that there a serious inconsistency between Wise's public speech and his later endorsing the substance of the Riegner message which warned of large numbers facing immediate extermination. But the substantial issue was not the numbers; the substantial issue was the immediate extermination.

If Irving has boasted of having some document and withholding it, then detail would be welcome. But Proxyserver has an obvious aversion to detail.

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Re: The Terrible Secret

Postby proxyserver » 8 years 9 months ago (Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:12 pm)

nathan wrote:Jazz cannot have shown any "ignorance" by simply reproducing a newspaper cutting. He did allow an obvious typo ("1900") to slip through. We all do that. Proxyserver should have simply noted the typo and made whatever point he was trying to make. He seems to be saying - in so many words - that there a serious inconsistency between Wise's public speech and his later endorsing the substance of the Riegner message which warned of large numbers facing immediate extermination. But the substantial issue was not the numbers; the substantial issue was the immediate extermination.

If Irving has boasted of having some document and withholding it, then detail would be welcome. But Proxyserver has an obvious aversion to detail.


I am perfectly aware of the rule in this forum that no personal abuse is allowed, so I hope that I will not break that rule by saying that Nathan is being, at best, disingenuous in his post above. There is nothing in the newspaper cutting posted by Jazz to suggest that Rabbi Wise is being quoted during WW2, and it does not help matters to claim that "1900" was a typo -- if such was the case then Jazz will have to post further material, otherwise I cannot believe it. In my original post in this thread I did quote a newspaper citation ( New York Herald Tribune 25 November 1942 ) in which, according to the text of Walter Laqueur, Rabbi Wise believed that, at most, only 4 million Jews came under the control of the Nazis at the height of their power, so perhaps someone can reproduce this if they want to -- I would believe Laqueur who is unlikely to make basic mistakes. People may know that Walter Sanning ( http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Easte ... 0939484110 ) believed that only three and a half million Jews came under the control of the Nazis, and so, in terms of the exterminationist narrative of the "Holocaust", it could not possibly have happened, as I have elaborated upon in previous posts in this thread. What is important is not alleged physical exterminations of Jews by Riegner and Wise, which is probably just Zionist propaganda, as I have said, but the question of whether they were to correct to believe apparently the four million figure, which more or less confirms Sanning.

As far as Irving is concerned I read his Action Report ( http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/index.html ) regularly and he is continually talking about a forthcoming biography of Himmler, who is supposed to have organised some sort of "Holocaust" behind Hitler's back, which seems strange to me. Any serious student of the "Holocaust" checks out Irving's website, and if Nathan is not aware of such matters concerning documentation then he should do his own research there.

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Re: The Terrible Secret

Postby nathan » 8 years 9 months ago (Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:34 pm)

We do not know Rabbi Wise’s own estimate of the exact numbers at immediate risk in 1942, and nothing would follow from it if we did. The importance of the four million number for Wise would be that he could pass it off as having the State Department's imprimatur. His task in 1942 was to arouse public opinion. Public opinion would accept “four million” sourced to the State Department far more readily than “six million” sourced to some old Zionist tradition. But from Laqueur’s book one can infer that State department remained as sceptical of the October(Reigner-Lichtheim) materials as they were of Reigner’s original telegram whose “prussic acid” had not played well

Wise was being less than candid about the validation of his materials but not actually dishonest. One might say that he was being disingenuous. I use the word accurately.

Readers can straightaway deduce the State Department’s private attitudes from a report appearing in the November 26 1942 of the New York Times

“Rabbi Wise said the State Department documents included affidavits from “reliable persons who knew” of such atrocities as turning Jewish bodies into soap and lubricants and of the latest nazi method of killing Jews by having doctors inject bubbles it their veins. He said that the earlier gassing with prussic acid had been found too expensive.

---------------------------------------------------------

I may have to apologize for a presumptuous mistake in assuming that Rabbi Stephen S Wise could not have been already prominent in 1900. If that date is right then Jazz has found the earliest reference to the “six million” figure I have ever seen. But that of course would be an estimate of Jews coming under Tsarist areas.


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