AR Survivors / Treblinka

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Raymond
Member
Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:56 pm

AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Raymond » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:35 pm)

I am of the belief that the AR [Aktion Reinhardt] camps were, in fact, transit camps but I was wondering why we don't have more eye witnesses than the 3 or 4 that we have. Shouldn't we have plenty of people that were processed through Treblinka and such that were shipped eastwards after being processed? It seems odd that we have none.

User avatar
Moderator3
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:01 am

Re: AR Survivors

Postby Moderator3 » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:14 pm)

Sorry, Raymond one topic at time. What camp is it going to be?
Read the guidelines.
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=358
Keep your posts limited to one point.

Raymond
Member
Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:56 pm

Re: AR Survivors

Postby Raymond » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:19 pm)

That's fine. Lets just pick Treblinka then since the whole Aktion Reinhardt system is somewhat similar. To be clear: If Treblinka was a transit camp, where are those who passed through?

Goethe
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:41 am

Re: AR Survivors

Postby Goethe » 7 years 11 months ago (Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:34 pm)

I believe this topic has been covered repeatedly at this forum, anyway for starters I suggest:
HOLOCAUST Handbooks Series, Vol. 8
Carlo Mattogno, Juergen Graf
Treblinka, Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?
http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/
free full text
Table of Contents

Introduction, p. 9

Part 1: Treblinka: A Critical Analysis of the Official Version, p. 17
Chapter I: The Description of Treblinka in Historiography, p. 19

1. Treblinka in Orthodox �Holocaust�-Literature, p. 19

a. Wassili Grossmann, p. 19
b. Rachel Auerbach, p. 23
c. Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz, p. 25
d. N. Blumental, p. 26
e. Marian Muszkat, p. 27
f. Jean-Fran�ois Steiner, p. 27
g. Krystyna Marczewska/Władysław Waźniewski, p. 29
h. Martin Gray, p. 30
i. Gitta Sereny, p. 30
j. Stanisław Wojtczak, p. 32
k. Adalbert R�ckerl, p. 32
l. Alexander Donat, p. 33
m. The "Encyclopedic Informer" of the Main Commission, p. 33
n. Eugen Kogon, Hermann Langbein, Adalbert R�ckerl et al. 34
o. Claude Lanzmann, p. 35
p. Yitzhak Arad, p. 36
q. Ryszard Czarkowski, p. 37
r. J. Gumkowski and A. Rutkowski, p. 37
s. Wolfgang Benz, p. 37
t. Richard Glazar, p. 38
u. Jean-Claude Pressac, p. 40
v. Assessment, p. 41

2. Treblinka in Revisionist Literature, p. 41

a. Treblinka and the Gerstein Report, p. 41
b. Friedrich P. Berg, p. 42
c. John C. Ball, p. 44
d. Udo Walendy, p. 44
e. Arnulf Neumaier, p. 45
f. The Thesis of the Transit Camp, p. 46

Chapter II: The Development of the Idea of Treblinka as an Extermination Camp, p. 47

1. The Secondary Killing Methods, p. 47
2. The Main Killing Method: Steam Chambers, p. 50
3. Significance of the Report of November 15, 1942, for Historiography, p. 62
4. From Steam Chambers to Carbon Monoxide Chambers, p. 64
5. Origin of the Version of Carbon Monoxide Gas Chambers, p. 70
6. Triumph of the Version of Carbon Monoxide Gas Chambers, p. 74

Chapter III: Investigations, Camp Plans, Statistics, p. 77

1. Soviet Investigations and Forensic Examinations, p. 77
2. Polish Investigations and Forensic Examinations, p. 82
3. Assessment of the Investigations, p. 89
4. Plans of Treblinka, p. 91
5. Number of Victims of Treblinka: Origin of the Official Figure, p. 96

Chapter IV: The Alleged Extermination Facilities in Treblinka: An Historical and Technical Analysis, p. 111

1. Planning and Construction of the Eastern �Extermination Camps�, p. 111
2. The Alleged Killing Installations in Treblinka, p. 116
3. Diesel engine or Gasoline Engine?, p. 121
4. The �Struggle� between Engine Exhaust Gases and Hydrogen Cyanide Gas, p. 125
5. The �Mission� of Kurt Gerstein, p. 126
6. Russian Engines or German Engines?, p. 132
7. Gas Chambers or Asphyxiation Chambers?, p. 133
8. The Problem of Air Pressure in Gas Chambers, p. 136
9. The Burning of Bodies: The Mass-Graves, p. 137

a. Number and Size of the Graves, p. 137
b. Site of the Mass-Graves, p. 138
c. The Excavated Earth, p. 139
d. A Comparison with the Mass-Graves of Treblinka I, p. 139
e. The Excavators of Treblinka, p. 140

10. Early Cremations, p. 141
11. Cremation Facility, p. 143
12. Cremation, p. 145

a. Complexity of the Problem, p. 145
b. Number and Structure of the Cremation Facilities, p. 146
c. Arrangement of the Corpses on the Cremation Grates, p. 148
d. Wood Requirement, p. 148
e. Ashes, p. 150
f. Wood Supply, p. 151
g. Lack of Documentary Evidence for Cremations, p. 152

13. Witness Testimonies about Cremations, p. 153
14. Number of Those Gassed Daily, p. 155
15. Property of Deportees as Material Evidence for their Extermination, p. 157

a. Hair, p. 158
b. Shoes, p. 159
c. Articles of Clothing, p. 159

Chapter V: Treblinka Trials, p. 161

1. Confessions as a Basis for Historiography, p. 161
2. West German Treblinka Trials, p. 162
3. The Demjanjuk Trial in Jerusalem, p. 169

Part 2: The Function of Treblinka: An Alternative Interpretation, p. 177
Chapter VI: National-Socialist Policy of Jewish Emigration, p. 179

1. Emigration, p. 179
2. The Madagascar Plan, p. 181
3. From Madagascar Plan to Deportation to the East, p. 183
4. Results of the NS Policy of Promoting Jewish Emigration, p. 193
5. The Start of Deportation of Jews to the East, p. 194
6. Direct Transports of Jews to the Eastern Territories, p. 196
7. Numerical Data of Direct Transports to the Eastern Territories, p. 199

Chapter VII: The Role of the Einsatzgruppen in the Occupied Eastern Territories, p. 203

1. Initial Situation, p. 203
2. Reasons for Mass-Shootings, p. 205
3. The Scale of the Shootings, p. 208

a. The Number of Jews Killed in Latvia, p. 208
b. The Number of Jews Killed in Lithuania, p. 209
c. Lithuanian Jews in Territories Annexed by the Reich, p. 210
d. Simferopol and the Manstein Trial, p. 210
e. Babi Yar, p. 211
f. Jews in Lithuanian Ghettos and Camps who Were Unfit for Work, p. 211
g. Jews Unfit for Work in the Ghetto of Brest, p. 214
h. Jews Unfit for Work in the Ghetto of Minsk, p. 214
i. Transfers of Baltic Jewish Children to Stutthof, p. 215

4. Operation 1005, p. 217
5. The Fate of the Western Jews in the East, p. 229

Chapter VIII: Indirect Transports of Jews to the Eastern Territories, p. 233

1. The �Jewish Reservation� of Lublin, p. 233
2. Transports of Jews into the Lublin District in 1942, p. 234
3. Numerical Analysis of the Transports into the Lublin District, p. 242
4. Beginning of the Transports of Jews to Auschwitz, p. 245
5. Auschwitz as a Transit Camp for Western Jews, p. 250
6. Final Destination of Jews Deported to the East, p. 253
7. Transfers into the District of Galicia, p. 261
8. National-Socialist Policy of Resettlement of Jews in the East according to Demographer Eugene M. Kulischer, p. 268

Chapter IX: Transit Camp Treblinka, p. 275

1. Deportations of Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto (1942), p. 275
2. Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and the Stroop Report, p. 281
3. Deportations from the ghetto of Białystok and the Transit Camp Małkinia, p. 288
4. Treblinka: Gas Chambers or Delousing Chambers?, p. 290
5. What was the Fate of the Deportees?, p. 295

Chapter X: Conclusion, p. 301
Epilogue, p. 305
Appendices, p. 313

Documents, p. 315
Photographs, p. 339
Abbreviations, p. 350
Bibliography, p. 351

Index of Names, p. 361
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

User avatar
Cloud
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:27 pm
Location: The Land of Political Correctness

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Cloud » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:21 am)

I'm trying to think of a good analogy for this, but I'm having some difficulty. I''ll give this a shot:

Let's suppose there was a rest stop somewhere on a long stretch of a highway out in the middle of nowhere. People would stop here to refuel their automobiles, purchase refreshments, and use the restroom before they moved on. The rest stop was active for a few years, but due to its location, received little business, and therefore was forced to close down. Everything that made this rest stop possible (e.g., all buildings, the highway) were completely removed. The rest stop has been closed down now for 66 years, while its former operators are all deceased, and all documents pertaining to transactions with customers have been lost. How could we go about tracking down the patrons that visited this rest stop?

Also, there is an urban legend in this town that all the patrons to this rest stop would be murdered and never seen again...
Last edited by Cloud on Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

The Warden
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:28 pm
Location: 'Murica!

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby The Warden » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:26 am)

Image

http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/mo ... 0_mov.html

Of course, we know the main witnesses for the AR camps have been less than reliable.

As far as where the survivors wound up, one can only guess. It's not as if they were required to report where they wound up. The goal was to have them out of German occupied territories, not to make sure they had a soft landing somewhere. Most probably wound up in gulags, but the most reasonable answer to me is emigration to Israel and the U.S.. One thing about survivors: They always show up to cash their benefit checks, or they wouldn't be "survivors". It's not like they turned around and headed back where they weren't wanted. They went as far away as possible from the threat, if possible. That's simple human nature... to survive.

However, if you think about it... We could easily say they died in Soviet territories from starvation , disease, and mass shootings. They are all located in mass graves. They're there because we say so. We won't be allowing any forensic digs though. And we'll even put up a memorial on top of the sites to prove it! :cheers: :lol:
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

Pizzaman
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Pizzaman » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:37 am)

Cloud wrote:I'm trying to think of a good analogy for this, but I'm having some difficulty. I''ll give this a shot:

Let's suppose there was a rest stop somewhere on a long stretch of a highway out in the middle of nowhere. People would stop here to refuel their automobiles, purchase refreshments, and use the restroom before they moved on. The rest stop was active for a few years, but due to its location, received little business, and therefore was forced to close down. Everything that made this rest stop possible (e.g., all buildings, the highway) were completely removed. The rest stop has been closed down now for 66 years, while its former operators are all deceased. All documents pertaining to transactions with customers have been lost. How could we go about tracking down the patrons that visited this rest stop?

Also, there is an urban legend in this town that the patrons to this rest stop would be murdered and never seen again...


The fundamental problem with your analogy is that there were transit camps, and yet people can remember being in them and have reported same. Westerbork would be the best example. So why do we have so many people who can testify to Westerbork being a transit camp and ZERO who can say the same thing for Treblinka?

Pizzaman
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Pizzaman » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:44 am)

The Warden wrote:As far as where the survivors wound up, one can only guess. It's not as if they were required to report where they wound up. The goal was to have them out of German occupied territories, not to make sure they had a soft landing somewhere. Most probably wound up in gulags


And yet we have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of GULAG survivors, and none of them are saying they went "through" Treblinka.

but the most reasonable answer to me is emigration to Israel and the U.S.


The largest influx of immigrants from Soviet-held territory to Israel has taken place in the last twenty years. That would put the oldest survivors at the age of around seventy when they got to Israel, which is not out of the realm of possibility (i.e., for a person to live to be seventy). Yet none of the former Soviet Jews entering Israel have said they went "through" Treblinka.

Same thing with the U.S., except they would have been even younger when they came here. By the way, the number of Jews who came here after WWII is relatively small.

One thing about survivors: They always show up to cash their benefit checks, or they wouldn't be "survivors".


This seems to me to be an excellent point: If you had someone who survived "Transit Camp" Treblinka, then wouldn't they be saying that when they filed for their compensation? And yet no one did.

It's not like they turned around and headed back where they weren't wanted. They went as far away as possible from the threat, if possible. That's simple human nature... to survive.


Sure, but, again (not to repeat myself) why aren't any of these people wherever they ended up saying they went "through" Treblinka?

The Warden
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:28 pm
Location: 'Murica!

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby The Warden » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:54 am)

Pizzaman wrote:And yet we have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of GULAG survivors, and none of them are saying they went "through" Treblinka.


But if we believe the amounts of prisoners that went through Treblinka, "hundreds, perhaps thousands" isn't very many survivors at all. Now, I'm sure the first reaction is to say they never made it to the gulags, but it's also possible, they made it there and the rest didn't survive.

Facts not in evidence.

Pizzaman wrote:The largest influx of immigrants from Soviet-held territory to Israel has taken place in the last twenty years. That would put the oldest survivors at the age of around seventy when they got to Israel, which is not out of the realm of possibility (i.e., for a person to live to be seventy). Yet none of the former Soviet Jews entering Israel have said they went "through" Treblinka.


What's to gain from claiming Treblinka survival when they can simply claim the blanket term "Holocaust survivor"?
If anything, the more people who do claim to survive Treblinka will make the idea that it was an extermination camp less plausible.
More survivors, less dead, correct?
And let's not forget that the Holocaust industry doesn't need more "survivors" telling their stories. They can't get them straight as it is.

Pizzaman wrote:Same thing with the U.S., except they would have been even younger when they came here. By the way, the number of Jews who came here after WWII is relatively small.


I don't discuss claims which must be made on demographics and population statistics. They are far too inaccurate for reasons discussed previously in this forum.
Arguing the numbers is pure conjecture.

Pizzaman wrote:This seems to me to be an excellent point: If you had someone who survived "Transit Camp" Treblinka, then wouldn't they be saying that when they filed for their compensation? And yet no one did.


Since I have to answer any question posed to me or leave the thread...
I believe I addressed this above.

Pizzaman wrote:Sure, but, again (not to repeat myself) why aren't any of these people wherever they ended up saying they went "through" Treblinka?


And again...
There's simply no reason to clog up the Holocaust story drains any more than they already seem to be.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

Pizzaman
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Pizzaman » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:22 am)

The Warden wrote:
Pizzaman wrote:And yet we have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of GULAG survivors, and none of them are saying they went "through" Treblinka.


But if we believe the amounts of prisoners that went through Treblinka, "hundreds, perhaps thousands" isn't very many survivors at all. Now, I'm sure the first reaction is to say they never made it to the gulags, but it's also possible, they made it there and the rest didn't survive.


Sure, it's possible; it just isn't likely. Again, think Westerbork. And again, think of all the people who DID make it out of the GULAG.

Facts not in evidence.


History isn't a court trial.

Pizzaman wrote:The largest influx of immigrants from Soviet-held territory to Israel has taken place in the last twenty years. That would put the oldest survivors at the age of around seventy when they got to Israel, which is not out of the realm of possibility (i.e., for a person to live to be seventy). Yet none of the former Soviet Jews entering Israel have said they went "through" Treblinka.


What's to gain from claiming Treblinka survival when they can simply claim the blanket term "Holocaust survivor"?


You should be aware that you have to prove that you were actually in a camp in order to get compensation, at least from Germany.

If anything, the more people who do claim to survive Treblinka will make the idea that it was an extermination camp less plausible.
More survivors, less dead, correct?


That's correct. And yet you have very few claiming survival at Treblinka, particularly if they were deported there outside of a specific time-frame before the revolt there. Even fewer from Sobibor. Two guys from Belzec (no revolt there).

And let's not forget that the Holocaust industry doesn't need more "survivors" telling their stories. They can't get them straight as it is.


That's off-topic for this thread.

Pizzaman wrote:Same thing with the U.S., except they would have been even younger when they came here. By the way, the number of Jews who came here after WWII is relatively small.


I don't discuss claims which must be made on demographics and population statistics. They are far too inaccurate for reasons discussed previously in this forum.

Arguing the numbers is pure conjecture.


I disagree. The U.S., at least keeps very good immigration records, and Israel does as well — at least since independence. (Obviously, when immigration there was illegal, fewer records were kept.)

Pizzaman wrote:This seems to me to be an excellent point: If you had someone who survived "Transit Camp" Treblinka, then wouldn't they be saying that when they filed for their compensation? And yet no one did.


Since I have to answer any question posed to me or leave the thread...


I'm not going to ask that a dodging rule be inforced. That's now how I play.

I believe I addressed this above.


Yes, you did.

Pizzaman wrote:Sure, but, again (not to repeat myself) why aren't any of these people wherever they ended up saying they went "through" Treblinka?


And again...

There's simply no reason to clog up the Holocaust story drains any more than they already seem to be.


I just don't think that's good enough to explain nearly a million people.

Goethe
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:41 am

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Goethe » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:03 pm)

Why in the hell would someone who makes cash from the "storyline" say that Treblinka was a transit camp? It goes against their interests. It's hard to believe, but as stupid as the statements by self-promoting "survivors" are, they do seem to know where their bread is buttered.
And then why would there be 'eyewitnesses' if Treblinka was supposedly a "pure extermination camp"? Makes no sense.

Just perusing this site I found some real screamers on Treblinka.

... there are enough indications to assume that it was a transition camp. I mentioned, amongst others, some transportation documents (not deportation lists!), which showing destinations from Treblinka to various other camps. This - and other indications such as survivors who said they arrived in other camps via Treblinka - convinces me that Treblinka as a camp existed and indeed was a transit camp.


Here's more real 'evidence' - Killing in vacuum chamber, with steam, or chlorine gas -----from: W. Grossmann, Die Hölle von Treblinka, Verlag für fremdsprachige Literatur, Moscow 1947; The Black Book of Polish Jewry, Roy Publishers, New York 1943.


The vacuum chamber...former Treblinka prisoner Samuel Rajzman testified that during the time he was in Treblinka, Jews were "suffocated to death" there with a machine that pumped air out of death chambers. {Rajzman text in: Yuri Suhl, ed., They Fought Back (New York: 1967), p. 130.}


from Yitzhak Arad’s book - BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - (chapter 23) - The Erasure of the Crimes: “The camp command was confronted with the problem of disposing of the large piles of ash and bits of bone that remained… Ultimately it was decided to dump the ash and bits of bone into the ditches that had previously held the bodies and to cover them with a thick layer of sand and dirt… [Eyewitness] Abraham Goldfarb relates: …’we secretly placed in the walls of the graves whole skeletons and we wrote on scraps of paper what the Germans were doing at Treblinka. We put the scraps of paper into bottles, which we placed next to the skeletons. Our intention was that if one day someone looked for traces, they could indeed be found.’”

Neither the Polish investigation from November 1945 nor the Soviet one from August 1944 found any mass graves in Treblinka II. It should not be so hard. The whole camp was just 15 hectares and the alleged mass graves (with remains of 870 thousands victims) were in a specific area of that 15 hectare camp ( as described by the witnesses).


-- The first witness testimony came from a miniscule number of survivors of the Reinhard camps, and reached the world via the Soviet propaganda machine in the persons of Ilya Ehrenburg and Vassilii Grossman. It was internally and mutually contradictory, and contained many claims, such as steam chambers and electric floors, or three million dead at Treblinka alone, that were quickly forgotten. In other words, testimony was cherry-picked even at that early stage. This continued into the Nuremberg trials and into the later trials in Germany, where many if not all witnesses were under Soviet or Polish Communist control.
"The coward threatens when he is safe".
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Pizzaman
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Pizzaman » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:31 pm)

Goethe wrote:Why in the hell would someone who makes cash from the "storyline" say that Treblinka was a transit camp? It goes against their interests. It's hard to believe, but as stupid as the statements by self-promoting "survivors" are, they do seem to know where their bread is buttered.
And then why would there be 'eyewitnesses' if Treblinka was supposedly a "pure extermination camp"? Makes no sense.


This is something the revisionist movement has never been able to explain: If it would have been more profitable for _________ (fill in the blank with 'the Jews,' 'the Zionists,' 'the hoaxsters,' etc.) to exaggerate the number of survivors, rather than the number killed, then why didn't they?

Just perusing this site I found some real screamers on Treblinka.


... there are enough indications to assume that it was a transition camp. I mentioned, amongst others, some transportation documents (not deportation lists!), which showing destinations from Treblinka to various other camps. This - and other indications such as survivors who said they arrived in other camps via Treblinka - convinces me that Treblinka as a camp existed and indeed was a transit camp.


Well, then, here's a challenge: Treblinka II (let's be clear, we're talking about Treblinka II) opened in July 1942. Deportations from Warsaw to Treblinka began almost immediately. It was the largest Jewish community in Poland. So please identify a single person who meets the following criteria:

(1) They were deported from Warsaw to Treblinka II in the summer of 1942.
(2) They then were sent somewhere else from Treblinka II.
(3) They were not a work Jew at Treblinka II.
(4) They had already been sent elsewhere by the time of the revolt.
(5) They were not on the Sonderkommando.

Should be no problem, right?

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9763
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:03 pm)

Pizza man says:
History isn't a court trial.

That's pretty funny considering the constant references to the sham show trials against the Germans that are used as 'proof' of the 'holocaust' tales as alleged.
You should be aware that you have to prove that you were actually in a camp in order to get compensation, at least from Germany.

Also very funny. Is Pizzaman saying that no one claimed to have been at Treblinka? And please tell us what exactly is the 'proof' that the curiously alive survivors of a "pure death camp" had to produce?

The U.S., at least keeps very good immigration records, and Israel does as well ...

So how many Jews were in 'Israel' before the war, and how many are there now?

If you had someone who survived "Transit Camp" Treblinka, then wouldn't they be saying that when they filed for their compensation? And yet no one did.

Why should they say that. And what proof do you have that they didn't? Were they even asked such a question?

I just don't think that's good enough to explain nearly a million people.

A million people what? That were supposedly "exterminated?" Exterminated in "steam chambers" and with "chlorine"?

And yet we have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of GULAG survivors, and none of them are saying they went "through" Treblinka.

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka?

The largest influx of immigrants from Soviet-held territory to Israel has taken place in the last twenty years. That would put the oldest survivors at the age of around seventy when they got to Israel, which is not out of the realm of possibility (i.e., for a person to live to be seventy). Yet none of the former Soviet Jews entering Israel have said they went "through" Treblinka.

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka?

This seems to me to be an excellent point: If you had someone who survived "Transit Camp" Treblinka, then wouldn't they be saying that when they filed for their compensation? And yet no one did.

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka?

Sure, but, again (not to repeat myself) why aren't any of these people wherever they ended up saying they went "through" Treblinka?

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka? And why should they even say 'they went through Treblinka'?

The fundamental problem with your analogy is that there were transit camps, and yet people can remember being in them and have reported same. Westerbork would be the best example. So why do we have so many people who can testify to Westerbork being a transit camp and ZERO who can say the same thing for Treblinka?

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka?

And of course, as referred to previously, there are records that show that Jews were transported through Treblinka. Not to mention complete lack of anyone being able to show us the mass graves as alleged.
Neither the Polish investigation from November 1945 nor the Soviet one from August 1944 found any mass graves in Treblinka II.


This really is too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9763
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:17 pm)

Oh yes, this one.
Well, then, here's a challenge: Treblinka II (let's be clear, we're talking about Treblinka II) opened in July 1942. Deportations from Warsaw to Treblinka began almost immediately. It was the largest Jewish community in Poland. So please identify a single person who meets the following criteria:
(1) They were deported from Warsaw to Treblinka II in the summer of 1942.
(2) They then were sent somewhere else from Treblinka II.
(3) They were not a work Jew at Treblinka II.
(4) They had already been sent elsewhere by the time of the revolt.
(5) They were not on the Sonderkommando.

Should be no problem, right?

Highly illogical. These are questions that Pizzaman should be answering. He's the one who claims they were all murdered. The onus is upon the accuser according legal principles, according the most basic rules of logic.

Pizzaman, please give us proof that these Jews were murdered.

Revisionists are the messengers, the absurd and impossible 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Pizzaman
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:42 pm

Re: AR Survivors / Treblinka

Postby Pizzaman » 7 years 11 months ago (Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:22 pm)

Hannover wrote:Pizza man says:
History isn't a court trial.

That's pretty funny considering the constant references to the sham show trials against the Germans that are used as 'proof' of the 'holocaust' tales as alleged.


There are two issues here. The first is whether an individual court trial can establish the guilt of individual people for individual crimes. The other is whether you can establish a whole period of history using the standards of criminal evidence. You cannot.

You should be aware that you have to prove that you were actually in a camp in order to get compensation, at least from Germany.

Also very funny. Is Pizzaman saying that no one claimed to have been at Treblinka? And please tell us what exactly is the 'proof' that the curiously alive survivors of a "pure death camp" had to produce?


No, I'm not saying no one claimed to have been at Treblinka. I'm saying no one who claimed to be at Treblinka claimed it was a transit camp.

As for the need to prove being in a camp, you can see an application form here:

http://www.claimscon.org/forms/Article2_ensp_0907.pdf

The U.S., at least keeps very good immigration records, and Israel does as well ...

So how many Jews were in 'Israel' before the war, and how many are there now?


Not sure. The population in 1949 was 1.2 million. The total number of Jews who went to Palestine between 1930 and 1939 is estimated to be less than 20,000. The total number of Jews who emigrated from 1919-1948 was 650,000 but that includes many years before the war. They say 200,000 came during the war itself.

Remember that the 1949 population figure includes 10% Arabs and also includes several hundred thousand Jews who were deported or fled from areas that had never fallen under German control (Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon).

If you had someone who survived "Transit Camp" Treblinka, then wouldn't they be saying that when they filed for their compensation? And yet no one did.

Why should they say that. And what proof do you have that they didn't? Were they even asked such a question?


Why would they say it? Why WOULDN'T they? You seem to be arguing just to argue.

As for "what proof do I have that they didn't," the revisionists are fond of saying that you can't prove a negative.

Nevertheless, there are ZERO testimonies from survivors OR perpetrators that Treblinka was a transit camp.

I just don't think that's good enough to explain nearly a million people.

A million people what? That were supposedly "exterminated?" Exterminated in "steam chambers" and with "chlorine"?


No, nearly a million people who were deported to Treblinka, which can be shown by the Nazis' own figures.

And yet we have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of GULAG survivors, and none of them are saying they went "through" Treblinka.

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka?


I have no idea if they were asked. I don't see you point.

The largest influx of immigrants from Soviet-held territory to Israel has taken place in the last twenty years. That would put the oldest survivors at the age of around seventy when they got to Israel, which is not out of the realm of possibility (i.e., for a person to live to be seventy). Yet none of the former Soviet Jews entering Israel have said they went "through" Treblinka.

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka?

You're repeating yourself.

This seems to me to be an excellent point: If you had someone who survived "Transit Camp" Treblinka, then wouldn't they be saying that when they filed for their compensation? And yet no one did.

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka?


And again.

Sure, but, again (not to repeat myself) why aren't any of these people wherever they ended up saying they went "through" Treblinka?

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka? And why should they even say 'they went through Treblinka'?


They would say they "went through" Treblinka if it were a transit camp. You go THROUGH a transit camp. People went THROUGH Westerbork.

The fundamental problem with your analogy is that there were transit camps, and yet people can remember being in them and have reported same. Westerbork would be the best example. So why do we have so many people who can testify to Westerbork being a transit camp and ZERO who can say the same thing for Treblinka?

So what? Were they asked if they went through Treblinka?


Sigh....

And of course, as referred to previously, there are records that show that Jews were transported through Treblinka. Not to mention complete lack of anyone being able to show us the mass graves as alleged.


Fine, then, let's see some that meet the criteria that you cut from my post.

Neither the Polish investigation from November 1945 nor the Soviet one from August 1944 found any mass graves in Treblinka II.


But the Polish one in 1944 DID find mass graves. And I frankly don't believe the above is true. I'd like to see who's being cited to that effect.

This really is too easy.

- Hannover


Really? Then why not find a survivor who meets my five criteria?


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests