The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

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The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Hans » 8 years 5 months ago (Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:42 am)

There is one statement which you see frequently cited in discussion with Revisionists, it is from the little book Widerstand in Auschwitz by Bruno Baum (1949). On page 34, Baum writes:

Ich glaube, es ist keine Übertreibung, wenn ich sage, daß der größte Teil der Auschwitzpropaganda, die um diese Zeit in der Welt verbreitet wurde, von uns im Lager selbst geschrieben worden ist.

„I believe it is no exaggeration, when I say, that the largest part of the Auschwitz propaganda, which was spread at the time around the world, was written by ourselves in the camp.“



A similiar statement was apparently made by him in 1945:

Die ganze Propaganda, die dann im Ausland um Auschwitz einsetzte, war von uns, mit Hilfe unserer polnischen Kameraden, entfacht.

The entire propaganda which started abroad, was made by us with the help of our Polish mates.

from: Rudolf, Aus der Forschung - Aus den Akten des Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozesses, Teil 7

Those statements have been referred to at least 13 times in the past 8 years alone at this forum - Sailor (2003), Hannover (2003), Hannover (2003), Hannover (2004), Richard Perle (2005), Hannover (2006), PotPie (2007), PotPie (2007), Hannover(2007), Driansmith (2007), PotPie (2007), Goethe (2011), Toshiro (2011).

In addition, it is cited in several Revisionist articles, such as Lectures on the Holocaust (Germar Rudolf), Aus der Forschung - Aus den Akten des Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozesses, Teil 7 (Germar Rudolf), Aus der Forschung - Aus den Akten des Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozesses, Teil 2 (Germar Rudolf), »Ein Kommentar ist an dieser Stelle überflüssig« (Knud Bäcker), Die neue Weltordnung und der Holocaust (Jürgen Graf)

In all those postings and articles it is implicitly or explicitly assumed that the statement is evidence for the spreading of false propaganda. However, when Bruno Baum used the term in the 40s, he did understand “propaganda” in this context in the sense of spreading true information as follows already from the title of the chapter in the 1949 book “Wir informieren die Welt” (we inform the world) and from the actual description of their work. For instance, just the next sentence reads “Wir haben in diesen Tagen so manches Mal die Absichten der politischen Abteilung durchkreuzt, indem wir ihre Pläne der Öffentlichkeit übergaben“ (In those days we foiled the intentions of the political department by making their plans public). etc.

There is no indication whatsoever that he meant to say that they created any false information. In the 1962 edition of the book the term “Auschwitzpropaganda” was changed to “Veröffentlichungen über Auschwitz”, apparently to avoid exactly the misunderstanding, which Revisionists exploit today, when they misinterpret it as admission of false propaganda and hoax. Whereas in fact it is an "admission" of spreading true information around the world (even though one may doubt weather they always did).

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Hannover » 8 years 5 months ago (Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:25 pm)

Hans says:
In the 1962 edition of the book the term “Auschwitzpropaganda” was changed to “Veröffentlichungen über Auschwitz”, apparently to avoid exactly the misunderstanding, which Revisionists exploit today, when they misinterpret it as admission of false propaganda and hoax.

Very Orwellian, Hans. The title change simply is spin control for Baum's admissions.

Here's more for you and our readers to marvel at:
Hannover wrote:Let's look at the specifics of so called "eyewitnesses" to alleged gassings, here are just a few examples.

I challenge anyone to post what they believe to be credible eyewitness statements on the alleged gas chambers for discussion here.

Elan Steinberg, Executive Director of the World Jewish Congress when discussing accusations of atrocities against Germans:
"The problem is, when you investigate something as serious as this, you can not rely on eyewitnesses who, even with the best of intentions, with the best of intentions, can give you misleading information".

- "eyewitness" Yankel Wiernik claimed: 1200 people fit into a 7 X 7 m gas chamber, bodies of women were used for kindling, bodies burned on their own once lit, he saw a naked Jewish girl jump a 3m (9 ft.) high fence & shoot two guards, that 900,000 Jews were gassed..buried..exhumed..cremated & all traces disappeared, a Russian diesel tank engine was used for gassings.

Wiernik also claimed he saw a naked Jewish girl leap over a three-meter (9 ft.) high barbed wire fence, wrench the rifle out of the hands of a pursuing guard, shoot two other guards before she was overpowered.

- in court, 3/46, Charles Bendel said groups of 1000 Jews where killed with Zyklon-B in a room measuring 10 meters long by 4 meters wide by 1.6 meters high. When asked, how 1000 people can possibly fit in to a room of 64 square meters, he answered, with 'the German method'.

Bendel testified that 1 million were gassed at Birkenau from January 1, 1944 to Jan 18, 1945. The latest number (which has changed constantly), now says 1.25 million were gassed for the entire duration of the war. They also say the alleged gassings ceased 11/44. Once again, they can't keep their lies straight

- An "eyewitness" stated that the alleged poison gas had a delayed action, it allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves - from: Repts. of the Polish Underground, Archiv der Polnischen Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III,v.7,pp.120f.,quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit.(note 271), p. 438.

- So called "eyewitness" Daniel Bennahmias claimed the alleged gas chambers walls were PAINTED after each gassing. Well, even if true, that would simply 'lock in' the HCN in the mortar and concrete. There is no significant cyanide residue to be found which would indicate mass gassings as alleged. He also claims that he was one of the alleged 'sonderkommandos'; they were supposedly in charge of moving bodies from the alleged gas chambers. The story goes that all sonderkommandos were murdered in order to silence them.
Peculiar, Daniel Bennahmias was not killed and was in fact given a choice of staying in Auschwitz to await the 'liberating' Soviets, or to leave with the SS in retreat; he chose to go with the SS.

- According to Alexander Pechersky, gassings at Sobibor took place via a black heavy substance which exited in spirals from holes in the roof. Then the floor of the gas chamber opened up, and the bodies fell directly into wagons placed in the basement.

- Filip Mueller, whose laughable beststeller "Sonderbehandlung" Raul Hilberg quotes no less than 20 times as a source in his standard work about the "Holocaust" - described how he ate cake in a cyanide-saturated gas chamber

- Former inmate, Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous escape from death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993 interview with a Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that he
"was sent to the camp gas chamber at least six times...maybe children resist better, I don't know."
Gazette, Montreal, Canada, August 5, 1993


- The vacuum chamber...former Treblinka prisoner Samuel Rajzman testified that during the time he was in Treblinka, Jews were "suffocated to death" there with a machine that pumped air out of death chambers. {Rajzman text in: Yuri Suhl, ed., They Fought Back (New York: 1967), p. 130.}

- Gas chambers on wheels in Treblinka, which dumped their victims directly into burning pits, from: Reports of the Polish underground movement, Archiv der Polnischen Vereinigten Arbeiterpartei, 202/III, v. 7, pp. 120f., quoted in: P. Longerich, op. cit. (note 271), p. 438

- delayed-action poison gas that allowed the victims to leave the gas chambers and walk to the mass graves by themselves, from: same as previous

- "eyewitness" Arnold Friedman's stated that he (and four others at the same time) 'survived' by breathing through a keyhole in the 'gas chamber' door at FLOSSENBERG.

- Ada Bimko (now Hadassah Rosensaft of the Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington DC): she testified to being shown by an SS officer the huge cylinders of gas in a room above the gas chamber!

- SS raced bicycles in the gas chamber of Birkenau, from Nürnberger Nachrichten, Sept. 11, 1978, report about eyewitness testimony in the jury court trial in Aschaffenburg

- Auschwitz inmate, Regina Bialek stated:

I was made to undress and taken by lorry to a gas chamber. There were seven gas chambers at Auschwitz. This particular one was underground and the lorry was able to run down the slope and straight into the chamber. Here we were tipped unceremoniously on the floor. The room was about 12 yards square and small lights on the wall dimly illuminated it. When the room was full a hissing sound was heard coming from the centre point on the floor and gas came into the room. After what seemed about ten minutes some of the victims began to bite their hands and foam at the mouth, and blood issued from their ears, eyes and mouth, and their faces went blue. I suffered from all these symptoms, together with a tight feeling at the throat. I was half conscious when my number was called out by Dr. Mengele and I was led from the chamber. I attribute my escape to the fact that the daughter of a friend of mine who was an Aryan and a doctor at Auschwitz had seen me being transported to the chamber and had told her mother, who immediately appealed to Dr. Mengele.


- In the book, 'Lest We Forget', it describes how Jews were steamed to death, and provides a diagram showing the location of the purported boiler room that produced the live steam. - 'Lest We Forget', World Jewish Congress (New York: 1943), pp.4, 6-7.

- The Polish govt. "conclusively proved" the Germans operated steam death chambers. They carried out "an on site, expert examination of the steam chambers," submitting an "expert report" to the Nuremberg Tribunal.- Nuremberg Trial Document 3311-PS, IMT "blue series"/1947-1949), vol.32, pp.152-158

- Here's more real "evidence" - Killing in vacuum chamber, with steam, or chlorine gas, from: W. Grossmann, Die Hölle von Treblinka, Verlag für fremdsprachige Literatur, Moscow 1947; The Black Book of Polish Jewry, Roy Publishers, New York 1943.
- "There was a blue haze after gassing with hydrocyanic acid" [which is colorless] - R. Böck, Frankfurt Public Prosecutor's Office, Ref. 4 Js 444/59, pp. 6881f.

“In retreat the stationary gas chambers in the eastern part of the camp were restructured, even little turrets and other architectural embellishments were added so that they would look like innocent garages." - ‘The Factory of Death at Auschwitz’ Boris Polevoi, Pravda, 1945

Communist Jew, Bruno Baum, himself a member of the 'partisans', boasted after the war: "The entire propaganda which started abroad, was made by us with the help of our Polish mates." - Bruno Baum, »Wir funken aus der Hölle« in Deutsche Volkszeitung - Zentralorgan der KPD, Berlin 31.7.1945.; cf. B. Baum

"…It is not necessary to ask oneself how, technically, such a mass murder was possible. It was technically possible since it took place. Such is the point of departure required of any historical enquiry on the subject. This truth obliges us to state quite simply: there is not, there cannot be, any debate on the existence of the gas chambers."

- from a declaration, published in Le Monde, feb 21, 1979. Written by Pierre Vidal-Naquet and Léon Poliakov. And signed by 34 "historians"


And so it goes with each and every "eyewitness" to alleged gassings and their supporters. Their stories are patently absurd; but if you don't believe in them you could go to jail.

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby joachim neander » 8 years 5 months ago (Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:16 pm)

@ Hannover:

Hans correctly, in his OP, pointed to the fact that the word "propaganda" three generations or more ago had another meaning than it has today. What is "Orwellian" with this? Every linguist will tell you that it is a quite normal phenomenon in every living language.

What do you think, by the way, when Dr. Goebbels wrote in his diary that "we will use the Katyn discoveries in our propaganda"? Did he spread lies about Katyn? So you see that, in the early 1940s, "propaganda" by far not exclusively meant "spreading falsehood."

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 5 months ago (Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:20 pm)

Please to see you back, Dr Neander,

Funny i was just about to take the example of Katyn and Goebbels' diary.

However, it also shows that even in the 1930s-40s, the concept of propaganda was not just "informations" or "communications". The concept implies a strategy of how to use information and how to communicate it the most effecient way. That was Goebbel's job.
Considering this, the change of terms from "propaganda" into "Veröffentlichungen" is a bit "too much"!
There were clear example of propaganda regarding the Holocaust, escpecially through the "theater" at Bergen Belsen organized by Rosensaft by june 45 (he was Polish btw)

However, Hannover, Joachim's example shows that propaganda does not mean systematically "invention".
And some eyewitnesses 's fantasies are just what they are...fantasies, exagerations...the use of them is propaganda, and no one serious person i know would pretend that the Holocaust is the only topic free from propaganda...
Again, the development of a "Holocaust industry" does not mean "No holocaust at all".

It would be just like considering every men virgin because of the fantasies told when evoking the "first sexual experiance".

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Hannover » 8 years 4 months ago (Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:48 pm)

Hans & Neander both have problems with their defense of the communist, Baum. Baum wasn't just saying that he & his communist comrades publicized information, Baum stated clearly that he and his communist comrades made up the propaganda that he & they publicized. Indeed, very Orwellian.

Balsamo said:
However, Hannover, Joachim's example shows that propaganda does not mean systematically "invention".

No one said "systematically". Of course the use of "systematically" is an admission that it certainly can be "invention". And we have Baum admitting to invention.

I wouldn't say propaganda had "another" meaning, but 'additional' is more like it. And what is abundantly clear from Baum was that he and his comrades invented the propaganda that he and they were disseminating.

So here, in summary, are the quotes:
I believe it is no exaggeration, when I say, that the largest part of the Auschwitz propaganda, which was spread at the time around the world, was written by ourselves in the camp.“

- Widerstand in Auschwitz by Bruno Baum (1949). page 34

and:
Communist Jew, Bruno Baum, himself a member of the 'partisans', boasted after the war: "The entire propaganda which started abroad, was made by us with the help of our Polish mates."

- Bruno Baum, »Wir funken aus der Hölle« in Deutsche Volkszeitung - Zentralorgan der KPD, Berlin 31.7.1945.; cf. B. Baum

and:
The entire propaganda which started abroad, was made by us with the help of our Polish mates.

- Germar Rudolf, Aus der Forschung - Aus den Akten des Frankfurter Auschwitz-Prozesses, Teil 7


Whether another publication "Auschwitzpropaganda" was changed to "Veröffentlichungen über Auschwitz" is irrelevant to Baum's own words. And regardless of what else Baum said 'blah, blah, blah' cannot hide the fact that he stated clealrly that he & his communist comrades made up the propaganda.

Ultimately, we have example after example of 'holocaust' propagandists inventing the tall tales which are discussed at this forum.

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Moderator » 8 years 4 months ago (Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:40 pm)

Hans:
In your reply to Hannover you claimed he didn't specify his reasons for saying that Baum and his comrades made up their propaganda. I invite you to re-read Hannover's post. Your last post was deleted because of your unfounded claim. Please read all of someone's post before responding.
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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 4 months ago (Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:23 pm)

Code: Select all

And what is abundantly clear from Baum was that he and his comrades [b]invented [/b]the propaganda that he and they were disseminating.


Hannover,
The fact that he was the main source of the "propaganda" of what happened at Birkenau, does not invole invention of the whole fact. I am not aware that Baum did admit in any of his writings that he invented the whole story. He only claims that he is at the source of the way the informations were spread accross the world.

Of course, one can concede that "propaganda" implies a certain degree of exagerations, but that is all.
Propaganda is a strategy on "how to communicate an information", the admission of propaganda has thus nothing to do with any invention of informations. More clearly, to write the propaganda does not equal invention of information.

as shown by dr Neander, Goebbels wrote (and was happy to do so) the propaganda about katyn when the mass grave was discorvered. That does not mean that no Polish officers were shot...

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Hannover » 8 years 4 months ago (Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:34 pm)

Balsamo said:
Hannover,
The fact that he was the main source of the "propaganda" of what happened at Birkenau, does not invole invention of the whole fact. I am not aware that Baum did admit in any of his writings that he invented the whole story. He only claims that he is at the source of the way the informations were spread accross the world.

Oh please, Balsamo. No one said that Baum "invented the whole story" of absurdities about Auschwitz/Birkenau. Not another strawman, Balsamo. Why do you ignore the content of what Baum himself said. Invent, he and his communist comrades certainly did.
Baum's words again:
I believe it is no exaggeration, when I say, that the largest part of the Auschwitz propaganda, which was spread at the time around the world, was written by ourselves in the camp.“

"The entire propaganda which started abroad, was made by us with the help of our Polish mates."

The entire propaganda which started abroad, was made by us with the help of our Polish mates.

As for your discussion about 'propaganda' when you used the obligatory false, strawman argument, you said:
However, Hannover, Joachim's example shows that propaganda does not mean systematically "invention".

In which I responded clearly:
No one said "systematically". Of course the use of "systematically" is an admission that it certainly can be "invention". And we have Baum admitting to invention.

Yourself and Hans's wish to employ a tactic of continuously talking about the definition and uses of 'propaganda' appears to be an attempt to divert from what Baum actually said.

Sorry, but I'm not going to accept such diversionary tactics.

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Moderator » 8 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:58 pm)

Balsamo, from a post that was just deleted, I will breakdown your relevant statements:
You stated:
Only, I try to remain in the topic which is only about Baum's quote, and not about Auschwitz in itself.

That is a false argument, Hannover is only referring to Baum's quotes. Your attempt at subject changing and wordsmithing is not going to work here.
You said of Baum:
"And yes he said : we "wrote the propaganda"... "We made the propaganda"...Baum is telling the truth here, but that is about it on what one can conclude from this quote.

But then, you contradict yourself by saying:
I don't see where Baum admitted having "invented" anything but the exagerations that are part of propaganda practises.

As was pointed out by Hannover and now yourself, Baum did specifically admit to inventing / making the propaganda.

Further manipulative posts like those in this thread from you will be deleted without explanation. This forum will not allow subject changing and blatant obfuscations as a method of debate.

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:24 pm)

As my original deleted post was kind of 5 lines, keeping 3 out 5 makes me wonder why it was deleted in the first place.

When i said
Only, I try to remain in the topic which is only about Baum's quote, and not about Auschwitz in itself.


It was not targeted on what hannover did or could have said, but on what i did say and why.

So when you point out
Hannover is only referring to Baum's quotes.

So do i.

I don't see where Baum admitted having "invented" anything but the exagerations that are part of propaganda practises.


There is a misunderstanding here. I meant he told the truth by admiting making the propaganda, not by the content of the propaganda.
I even put examples on what the propaganda was and an example of how it was communicate which should not have deserved delation by the way.

As was pointed out by Hannover and now yourself, Baum did specifically admit to inventing / making the propaganda.

Further manipulative posts like those in this thread from you will be deleted without explanation. This forum will not allow subject changing and blatant obfuscations as a method of debate.

The subject was submitted by Hans (not by hannover), and i fail to see where and when i changed the subject in any way. Looks like mistrust have reached new record high, as i basically confirmed that Auschwitz first version is propaganda not facts. All i said is that the admission of having done propaganda (which we are all aware of) does not means nothing happened there, at least that there cannot be such conclusions from the sole Baum's quote. If that is worth deletion, i don't know how debates can take place.

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby The Warden » 8 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:31 pm)

I have no idea what Balsamo is trying to convey.

Either Braun propagandized it or not?
I fail to see any middle ground.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:26 pm)

The Warden said
I have no idea what Balsamo is trying to convey.


Maybe it's because you are too used to see things in black and white.

Either Braun propagandized it or not?


yes, and we all agree though in different degree with this.

I
fail to see any middle ground


That was supposed to be the subject of Hans' post. Wich was : "is it relevent to quote Baum to prove that there were no Holocaust per se at Auschwitz?" as this quote appeared many times in revisionist's argumentation.

So yes, there is a middle ground, as i disagreed with Hans on the fact that they can be a "true propaganda", it cannot by definition, as it is a strategy to use real informations to get points. But i do agree with him that the term "propaganda" did not meant lies as it is understood today, but to a certain point. In 99% of the cases, Propaganda uses "true informations", though were are all aware of the "pure lies" behind the first and second war on Iraq - and i would like to point out that the first to denouce it were belgian journalists.
But Hans is right in pointing out that propaganda was nothing to be ashamed in the pre-war, as it was kind of part of the definition of journalism, especially in countries without free press.

We've been often on this subject, and among the best examples i have are the "polish atrocities" used by Hitler to justify war on Poland, and the Katyn massacre. Both rely on true events, but were used in a way that would not qualify as honnest, especially in the first case. In the second, Goebbels was happy to be able to write a great propaganda about it, and again that does not mean that those poor Polish officers were not shot down.

And that is my point, a dishonnest strategy about a true information does not equal = because there is propaganda there is no informations at all. So my conclusion is that Baum's quote only prove that whatever happened at Birkenau has been subject to "propaganda", but that it cannot be used to prove that "whatever happened there" was pure lies. At least not with this only quote.

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby The Warden » 8 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:31 pm)

Balsamo wrote:And that is my point, a dishonnest strategy about a true information does not equal = because there is propaganda there is no informations at all. So my conclusion is that Baum's quote only prove that whatever happened at Birkenau has been subject to "propaganda", but that it cannot be used to prove that "whatever happened there" was pure lies. At least not with this only quote.


I'm sorry, Balsamo, but if propaganda is created and spread, then it isn't the "true information".
By Baum admitting to creating and using propaganda, he also showed the true information was dismissed or buried in favor of the propaganda to serve the people creating it better.

If there was no propaganda, he would be spreading the true information. It's either the truth or it isn't.
The definition of "propaganda" then and now is moot since the intent is the same; To alter the truth in order to serve the purpose of gaining an advantage.
Admitting to such a thing proves intent of deception.
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby PotPie » 7 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:04 pm)

Hannover wrote:Hans says:
In the 1962 edition of the book the term “Auschwitzpropaganda” was changed to “Veröffentlichungen über Auschwitz”, apparently to avoid exactly the misunderstanding, which Revisionists exploit today, when they misinterpret it as admission of false propaganda and hoax.

Very Orwellian, Hans. The title change simply is spin control for Baum's admissions.


If you compare the relevant passages from the original 1949 edition to a later edition in 1957 (which is the one I last saw quoted on the German-language page for Baum to debunk revisionists), you'll see the 1957 edition has been ideologically sanitized.

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Re: The quote-mining of Bruno Baum

Postby Lohengrin » 7 years 4 months ago (Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:45 pm)

In my reaction to the thread "show me alleged gas chamber" (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7092), I wrote about "Hans":

Yes, I hesitate, because serious members of this forum rightfully do no longer answer “Hans” or “ask” him questions: as his postings show, he believes in the most impossible and weird “Holocaust”-Miracles ad absurdum and ad infinitum, he habitually does not answer important questions/problems, repeats refuted nonsense endlessly, gives worthless links and “evidence” (Olère, c.s.), dodging facts, etc.

Thence, I asked him 3 weeks ago now some very, very serious questions about his "Gaschambers" and . . . got (as usual) no answers whatsoever.

Nevertheless, he is allowed to open new threads on this Forum and spreads his baseless opinions/nonsense again and again.

Couldn't it be made a tool for the Moderator, to ban a poster who again-and-again-and-again not seriously (or not at all) answers important questions?

In this item here, the same is happening. Poor "Hans" guy et al., seems not to know there is a big and principal difference between 'information' and 'propaganda'. To be short: information stands for objective non-ideological facts; propaganda for (let's be mild) 50% facts and the rest of it omission, phantasy, would-be nonsens, dogma and lies. In other words, serious people will never take that serious, and no judge, right by his mind, will sentence anybody on grounds of "propaganda", because propaganda = nonsens.

This apart from the contents of the Auschwitz-propaganda about "mass-gassings", etc. Befores tating anything further about that, Hans, answer first my questions in the thread previously mentioned above.

Otherwise, you better stick to th Believers Fora.


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