You've been labeled

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castlewarden
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You've been labeled

Postby castlewarden » 8 years 6 months ago (Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:16 am)

"The problem you're having as revisionists," he (=Michael Shermer) went on, "is that you've been labeled ... the assumption is that there's an ideology behind the questions you've been asking." Revisionist statements, no matter how factual and truthful, are simply dismissed. "You've been labeled," said Shermer of Holocaust revisionists, and a pejorative "label has stuck there."

"The Holocaust will be revised," Shermer stressed," by "van Pelt and others ... but they'll get away with it because they're not associated with any ideology, and that's the problem you're encountering. I'm not going to impute ideological motives to any particular person here. I'm just saying that that's the perception out there amongst non-revisionists, and that's the problem you're running into."

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n1p22_Weber.html


Wow, that from Michael Shermer.
Who would have thought he would say this openly? I am positively surprised.

He said that already in 1996. :shock:
"Each and every component that makes up your life experience is drawn to you by the powerful Law of Attraction’s response to the thoughts you think and the story you tell about your life." Abraham Hicks

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Re: You've been labeled

Postby Bonesy » 8 years 6 months ago (Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:28 am)

He did bring this point up in the 1995 debate with Mark Weber.
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

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Re: You've been labeled

Postby skeptical » 8 years 5 months ago (Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:23 pm)

I think that the labeling of revisionism as "anti-semetic" or "skin head" or what ever nasty conotation which can be pasted on anybody with the gumption to ask any questions has been undeniably successful.
Most folks have no clue about the Holocaust, they just know instinctively that anybody who asks any questions is outside the protection of the law. I read a bit about the folks who were denied the ability to display their revisionist materials at some convention and then sued. The court more or less said that they were instigating violence by mentioning things which would drive their attackers to attack..... How can we possibly counter that? On top of being relieved of your worldly goods, subjected to wanton violence, probably seperated from your family you face the sad prospect that everything you've ever learned about the bill of rights just doesn't apply when it comes to asking perfectly reasonable questions about 70 year old historical events.
I daydream about discovering some way to crack this nut but anyway forward involves first being stripped of all you love and all who you love. I wish I had the fortitude, the intelligence to move this ball down the field but the violent protecters of this myth lay in wait at every turn.
The public librarian who's face turned into a mask of utter disgust when I asked if they had any "revisionist titles" the many friends who have ostracized me for merely daring to raise the subject. Let's face it, this brainwash was complete and effective. We are strangers in a strange land.
At some point it will all fall to the floor like an old dusty curtain in a ramshackle house but by then we will all be long dead.
Almost everybody has been revision proofed. The industry guys must read our stuff and just laugh. It's like Orwell's predicition, we don't have the ability to reach out because the general population simply cannot comprehend the concept. We are as enslaved as any population ever was and even that idea is beyond the range of modern human hearing.
It seems almost comical that our neighbors will keen in unison at the sound of any revision and then fail to notice that we are cheering as white phospher shells are exploded above innocent women and children... we are moving our ships into position to make sure no one intercedes as the Palestinians are shot like fish in a barrel.
Look at the folks who stand up for truth, simple truth, they are crushed, by actual bulldozers if need be.
We are fools if we think that we haven't each been detected, measured, categorized and filed for future reference.
In the meantime we spend ourtime watching television shows with laugh tracks and buying useless plastic trinkets.
I guess that the victors get to write the history and unfortunately we of the bill of rights didn't win...
God save us.

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Re: You've been labeled

Postby diaz52 » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:25 am)

skeptical wrote:I think that the labeling of revisionism as "anti-semetic" or "skin head" or what ever nasty conotation which can be pasted on anybody with the gumption to ask any questions has been undeniably successful....
I guess that the victors get to write the history and unfortunately we of the bill of rights didn't win...
God save us.


Excellent post, very thought provoking. And I know exactly what you mean, I've thought a lot about cracking this nut as well. I also marvel at the Orwellian aspects of our modern age: the instant freak-out that most people have when you raise the topic of revisionism reminds me of the Newspeak dictionary from 1984, and how the party wants speech from the throat, and not from the brain. They want speech to be an automatic pre-programmed means of communication. And the way speech and words related to the Holocaust are so soaked in stark meaning, most people won't even let you even lay out your argument before the pre-programmed hostile response precludes any meaningful discussion.
And yes we live in a world where people clutter up their lives buying useless junk, and clutter up their minds watching mind numbing TV programs.
But consider this: We are strangers in a strange land, as you rightly point out. We've seen the man behind the curtain, busily pulling levers and pressing buttons. We've seen this, while the vast majority are staring spell-bound at the powerful illusion set before them. Most are clueless about the holocaust, as you rightly pointed out, and they're clueless about how this myth has shaped our world and led to war after war, with the very real threat of more wars to come. Well here is a task before us. Here is our puzzle to solve. It won't be easy, and theres risk and danger involved, but we're not without resources in this technological age. Its our curse to live in interesting times. Better by far than any TV show or trinket, this task is worthy of our time, thoughts and our efforts. What else can we say is worthy of those things? Lets crack this nut, and when we do, I have a feeling things are going to get really interesting...
-You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
-The establishment can't control the web, and the control of information through all means but one, is no control at all.

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Re: You've been labeled

Postby Barrington James » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:25 am)

Although name calling is a very effective way of damaging a person. Every grade 6 kid knows this. The RODOH mob use it very effectively for example. I think, however, that Plato described the “revisionist” problem best of all in his famous Shadows in the Cave analogy.

For those who have forgotten your first year philosophy studies, let me remind you. Plato told us that if a group of people were to be somehow isolated in a cave, raised in that cave from birth or what ever, and simply shown shadows on a wall in front of them, without being given the opportunity to investigate these shadows ( Very similar to being raised in most Western countries: forced to watch Hollywood movies, TV , read Western newspapers, and books and go to school and constantly lied to etc.) then those shadows would become their reality. The cave dwellers would build an entire community, a religion, a belief system, and so on based on their interpretations of the shadows.

Then if one of these cave dwellers were to be taken from the cave, shown the "real"world and then taken back to the cave, he would no doubt try to enlighten his fellow cave dwellers of what he knows. Unfortunately this now enlightened cave dweller would more than likely be ridiculed, harassed and, if worst came to worst, jailed or even killed for his efforts. We humans, poor souls that we are, have a very strong instinct to defend our religions and belief systems. Those who try to challenge these systems do so at their own peril.

This is the main problem being a revisionist. We are trying to tell the world that their reality is not reality, that they are being lied to daily about the Holocaust and so much more. And the believers hate us for it.

BJ
You can fool too many of the people most of the time.

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Re: You've been labeled

Postby skeptical » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:30 pm)

I wonder if, within the stories, the icons, the shadows cast on the wall, there might be a key.
One thing is clear, pointing out inconsistencies doesn't work because most people simply don't trust themselves enough to question authority... they are afraid of being humiliated....
The other day I was looking through Ray Bradbury's collection of stories about Mars....
In one of the short stories the humans arrive and announce themselves to the martian populace... the people of Mars assume that the Earthlings are simply insane. When, by dying, they finally break "the cave wall" for the official in charge of "curing" them... he simply assumes that he is insane.
The whole tapestry is so beautifully woven... the old men who fought in the war (their proudest moments) will swear up and down that he "sw the gas chambers" because the US Army cleverly marched the lot of them by the delicing chamber doorway...
You can't overcome that sort of conditioning......
Every young woman on the home front carefully read and reread the readers digest..... and was indoctrinated in this tale of horror... try telling your grandma that the readers digest could tell a lie.... you might as well be spitting on the bible.
For a while there it seemed that there was a holocaust special on tv every week...... "who are we to contradict ABC?"
Every teacher and libraian knows that some horrible fate awaits any teacher who questions the holocaust.... they might as well be purveyors of child porn.
The one hope we all have, intelligent men standing up and speaking out? They tear those men from their lives and families and imprision them, humiliate them and anyone who dares to speak on their behalf.
I have no doubt, we are enslaved by this. It is a danger to simply speak freely to your children about this.
I read about the fear instilled in the Roman citizens by the emperor... nothing has changed, our pencils are digital and nothing has changed. In fact the only thing that is new is that each of us is writing our thoughts directly onto the hard drive of our masters, to be stored for later recall and review.
The one thing that our fore bears had, annonymity, is no more. Each of us is known and measured.
Thomas Paine was marked for death... but the British couldn't find him... he was annonymous, he was "common sense"
I remember reading somewhere that during the Roman empire the emperor didn't need to chase you down or capture those who displeased him... he controlled the known world, he simply issued an edict and those marked for punishment made their way to their assigned fate. Our fate seems similer or worse, the law is no shield, revisionist are outside the protection of the law.
Your every thought and word has been recorded, if you become troublesome you can be destroyed, dispossessed, removed from your family...
Look at the girl who merely mentioned in passing that she thought her director was so mean on the set he 'acted like Hitler"..
her life as an actress is finished.... she was a perfect example for every aspiring young person.... "don't even think about ww2!.... it's dangerous".....
I look at my children and realize..... one wrong word repeated in school will cause their lives to be turned upside down...
I wish we had a lever, a focal point on which we could balance a thought... elie's arm? the guy is already a rusty hinge, no-one cares..... Palestine? I want to help those people or at least stop helping to hurt them... but how?
Our lives are wasted if we simply watch this parade of injustice march by without a word but if I speak they will march right over me and my children will never understand what happened.
We are enslaved

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Re: You've been labeled

Postby diaz52 » 8 years 5 months ago (Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:15 am)

skeptical wrote:I wonder if, within the stories, the icons, the shadows cast on the wall, there might be a key.
One thing is clear, pointing out inconsistencies doesn't work because most people simply don't trust themselves enough to question authority... they are afraid of being humiliated....
The other day I was looking through Ray Bradbury's collection of stories about Mars....

... Our lives are wasted if we simply watch this parade of injustice march by without a word but if I speak they will march right over me and my children will never understand what happened.
We are enslaved


Again an excellent post, I'd point out however that as bad as things are, and they are bad, you're not alone in this. Also there's always hope, they can never take that away. The internet for example was one technology they never saw coming, and so have been unable to control the information that is available on it- information which they have kept from the TV screens, and radio waves, printed media, etc, for years. Yet its still available to us online. So take heart, theres hope, and theres others who know what you are going through. History has a way of re-shuffling the deck from time to time, they'll be another re-shuffling at some point. All we can do is identify individuals close to us that we feel can handle the initial broaching of the subject, and who have the intelligence to grasp what we're telling them. If these individuals have these two qualities, the revisionist material we have available to us via the web will be more than enough for them to begin to fundamentally question- for the first time in their lives- the establishment's Holohoax story.
-You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
-The establishment can't control the web, and the control of information through all means but one, is no control at all.


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