My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

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Mkk
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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby Mkk » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:53 am)

Once again the Holocaust high priest, my R.E teacher, is preaching Holocaustianity. He's also, as usual, using the ever-helpful Hitler and the Nazis to say whatever he wants to say.

We were doing moral dillemas- and as you'd expect, the first example rolled out was the "Holocaust". He said he had read many accounts of mothers in hiding having to smother their baby's, and kill them, when they started crying, because allegedly the whole family would be shot if they were found. I said that there are many showably false stories relating to the Holocaust- some of them are even admitted by the believers, such as the story a few years back about wolves. He asked why anyone would lie about that. I reminded him survivors often receive media attention and money, especially if they say something really bad happened to them. I also said about the blatantly false claims about the cremation times and the case of the world's most famous big H survivor, Ellie Wiesel.

The R.E teacher was now backed into a corner. He couldn't counter my claims; he muttered something about this discussion being close to "Holocaust denial" and then something else, which seemed to be something damning "denial". So, now knowing I was in dangerous water, I shut up. After he gave an example of a film called "Sophie's choice". I haven't heard of it, but he said it was about a woman having to make a choice between her son and daughter when a stereo-typically evil Nazi doctor was going to kill one of them. I can't much comment here, because I don't know if it's a true story or not. (Although Holocaust stories and true stories never go hand in hand...) Does anyone else know anything about this film?

Later on, he was talking about war, and whether it is ever right. As expected, he brought up the example of the Nazis, saying again (see my first post) that the Allies had tried to "appease" Hitler. I objected to this, saying that the Allies had completely ignored the German's disarmament and peace proposals, both before and after the war (for the latter). He reminded me about Germany's expansionist policy. I said the only land actually added back into the German Reich was territory that was originally German, had a majority German population, and (in democratic votings) showed they wanted to be German. These populations in many areas were also being prosecuted by the countries the Germans now found themselves in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Hitler and co. had never made territorial claims on land that hadn't been German originally. I concluded all these facts by saying the demands for the returning of this land to Germany was quite reasonable.

Once again unable to refute what I had said, the teacher said something about the invasion of France and the low countries. I pointed out that A) This move may actually have saved lives, and stopped Europe from descending into the bloodbath Trench warfare of WW1 b) The British Expeditionary force was planning to invade Germany, and it should also be pointed out this was a whole 8 months after the French deceleration of war and C) The land was never added territoriality to Germany, and was only occupied to prevent a British invasion. The middle of France, the "zone libre" was left alone for a while. As for Poland, the same goes terriorially, the rest of non-Soviet Poland was made into the General Government.

It's a bit of progress at least. Perhaps my comments on the Holocaust especially has left some doubt in the rest of the class.
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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby Inquisitor » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:53 am)

^ You may wish to draw from Udo Walendy's "Truth For Germany." He provides countless examples of facts that easily disprove the standard anti-Hitler clap-trap your teacher is regurgitating. It is online in PDF here(but you should pick up a copy yourself if possible - it is a dense, but excellent read):

http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres8/WALENDYeng.pdf


On a side note - I always roll my eyes at the stories like those mentioned at the beginning of your post re. killing babies and similar horrors. So many times I have heard people repeat these tales and I have asked for specifics - when, where, according to whom? When pressed, invariably you get a, "well, I read it somewhere" type answer. I then ask, "were?" I do not recall EVER getting a legitimate answer - ever. In other words, they are just parrotting the same hoary old tales spun since the days of the war itself, and only elaborated upon and made more horrible since! In discussions such as these, with the exception of the obligatory "Diary of Anne Frank," I've yet to encounter anyone who has actually READ holocaust historiography of any kind...yet THEY always see fit to tell ME - who has read literally dozens of books and research papers and absorbed from sites like this for years - that I am "ignorant" and THEY know what "really" happened. It is beyond bizarre...

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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:49 am)

Interesting that the Holocaust is a subject in Religious Education. I have to respect your tenacity and quick reflexes in a situation where, clearly, the use of authority is against you The big difficulty is of course that you want to challenge the certainty in your teacher's assertions without threatening him personally. Maybe you can make this point to him either within or outside the class situation?

The "close to Holocaust Denial" is, of course the admission that he can't counter your argument, but shuts down the discussion. (Though, of course, there is no "Denial" in pointing out the stories which have been exposed as frauds, or how Wiesel is profiting from his position.) There is no other topic on which there is anything parallel since religious "heresy" ceased to be an issue. It is dishonest because, of course, you are a "Denier", but the world has been convinced that Deniers are evil neo-Nazis and that the Nazis are in a separate class of evil all of their own, because of the Holocaust. (A circular argument of course.). Try to make clear that you are not trying to defend all actions of the German regime, but to take an objective view of events in their context, because this is what the current orthodoxy fails to do.

Sophie's Choice starred Meryl Streep.I think it was a guard rather than a doctor, but it's beside the point. I don't know whether it alleges to be based on a real incident. It probably does (you can look at Wiki or IMDB) but if it does, there is no way of knowing if it's authentic. It sounds like a stereotypical brutality story, but, sadly, a lot of stereotypical brutality does happen in war.

You appear to be thrown into the situation where you can't or don't want to question the Holocaust itself. If so, you could take the fallback position of Norman Finkelstein in the The Holocaust Industry. Read the outline in Wikipedia if you don't have time to read the book. Finkelstein sees Wiesel as a fraud who has gained money and fame by profiting from the Holocaust, (already in 2000 when Finkelstein wrote, he charged 25K USD for a lecture) and Finkelstein exposes how the Industry has extorted money from the Swiss banks and the German state, allegedly for survivors, when in practice, most has gone to intermediaries, to lawyers and to promote Holocaust museums and propaganda (sorry I meant "education").

Your arguments about the invasion of France are valid. Germany was perfectly justified in invading the country that had declared war on her. Belgium and Holland were neutral but there were strong arguments in realpolitik. Churchill had argued for an invasion of Norway if Germany had not pre-empted it, the RAF was overflying the Low Countries, and who is to say that France would not have gone through Belgium, if it had attacked first.

On Poland you are not on strong ground with the General Government. There the Germans had total control and the occupation was pretty severe. Poles were evicted to make place for Germans and many Poles sent to labour camps. On the other hand, when dealing with the pre-invasion situation, you can point out that it was not one-sided: there were attacks on ethnic Germans in Poland, the Polish press was belligerent and a lot of Poles wanted war, believing that together with Britain and France they could quickly defeat Germany. They were encouraged to be be belligerent by the British unconditional guarantee. On this issue you could cite A J P Taylor who says that in foreign policy the Germans behaved no differently from any of the other powers, while he leaves domestic issues out of the discussion. Taylor was a Socialist, who opposed appeasement before the war, but concluded afterwards that he had been mistaken.

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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby Mkk » 8 years 1 month ago (Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:47 am)

Interesting that the Holocaust is a subject in Religious Education.

It is, the "Holocaust" is rolled out by my R.E teacher all the time. It seems strange, doesn't it? I was thinking about this the other day, and it occurred to me we have all been emotionally hardened by the big H, anything else, like the starvation of who knows how many Germans after the war or the situation all over Africa or the massacre of several thousand Palestinians doesn't seem to bad somehow. Maybe, when arguing about morality, my R.E teacher can hardly think of anything else to make a moral point.

It is dishonest because, of course, you are a "Denier", but the world has been convinced that Deniers are evil neo-Nazis and that the Nazis are in a separate class of evil all of their own, because of the Holocaust.

I haven't actually come out as a Holocaust "denier" yet. I didn't say anything when the teacher said about the millions of people allegedely killed in the Holocaust- not just Jews, he reminded us. Thinking back, perhaps it would have been an idea to point out Walter Sanning's book. Something like "Sir, in 1983 a statician published a book called "The dissolution of European Jewry"... In that book, he said that only somewhere in the region of 250,000 Jews could have lost their lives in the Holocaust...". Maybe that would be probing too far. I could also point out that population statistics show that only around half a million Poles could have died in WW2 (Some of these might be the Polish Jews moved out by the Soviets and Germans), thus taking another huge chuck out of the alleged 11-17 (!) million victims. As for the gypsies, homosexuals etc. , there has never been any evidence for the extermination, and even some extermanists don't believe in that anymore- although if I said about any of this the teacher probably wouldn't care about the other minorities. Maybe I will mention this next time he mentions the "Holocaust". Again, I'd try not to come across as a "denier", but in the case of the Sanning book it could come across as if I'd just found the book somewhere and where curious as to the content.

On Poland you are not on strong ground with the General Government. There the Germans had total control and the occupation was pretty severe. Poles were evicted to make place for Germans and many Poles sent to labour camps.

Oh, I don't deny this. What I was saying was, the General Government area wasn't actually added to German territory. Not all things there were severe though- for example, the Germans helped to rebuild Warsaw.
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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby Breker » 8 years 1 month ago (Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:18 pm)

Here we go, off topic no doubt, but I couldn't let it pass.
Kingfisher stated this:
Churchill had argued for an invasion of Norway if Germany had not pre-empted it, the RAF was overflying the Low Countries, and who is to say that France would not have gone through Belgium, if it had attacked first.

The English did in fact invade Norway first. Their ships were there when the Germans arrived. Liddell-Hart, British WWII historian, covers this well I believe in his major WWII tome.
plus this one:
On Poland you are not on strong ground with the General Government. There the Germans had total control and the occupation was pretty severe. Poles were evicted to make place for Germans and many Poles sent to labour camps.

The Poles had seized German land, refused a promised plebiscite, as well as the incredible violence they inflicted upon the minority Germans. The Treaty of Versailles and the results of it, as accepted even by court historians, was simply outrageous. It's revealing to note that the British & French declared war on Germany for invading Poland (after countless Polish atrocities), but did not declare war on the USSR when the USSR invaded Poland from the east.
WWII an 'Allied victory'? Only if one liked the idea of allowing most of Europe to become communist.
B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 1 month ago (Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:13 pm)

Breker wrote:Here we go, off topic no doubt,

I made clear I was responding to Mkk's comments on the General Government. I then made similar comments to yours on the build-up to the war:
...there were attacks on ethnic Germans in Poland, the Polish press was belligerent and a lot of Poles wanted war, believing that together with Britain and France they could quickly defeat Germany. They were encouraged to be be belligerent by the British unconditional guarantee. On this issue you could cite A J P Taylor who says that in foreign policy the Germans behaved no differently from any of the other powers...

so there was really nothing to "let pass". I've read Hoggan, Taylor and Buchanan's books and I'm broadly in agreement with them. I think the deal the Germans were offering the Poles was a a good one, and a genuine attempt at a negotiated settlement. As it's OT, let's leave it at that.

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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby skeptical » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:02 am)

Merged from [Holocaust education in school]
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I have four children, three are in public school. It is amazing how much of their school time revolves around the Holocaust. It seems to be carefully woven into various subject areas... the success of the strategy is undeniable, the average school kid in the US (probably the world) is no more likely to doubt the Holocaust story that the citizens of North Korea are likely to doubt the intentions and legitimacy of the Dear Leader.... I have to admit, the whole thing is remarkable... I bet that there is some part of the human psyche which yearns to be fed such stories....

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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby Mkk » 8 years 1 month ago (Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:29 am)

Merged from [Holocaust education in school]
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Skeptical,

There is already a thread about Holocaust teaching in schools: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6658
I intended it to be a thread about everyone's experiences about teaching of the "Holocaust" in school. I and the other members of Codoh will be very interested if you expand on your information a bit, in the thread above if that's okay. :)

I bet that there is some part of the human psyche which yearns to be fed such stories....

Well, yes, if it fits their own biases or the opinion put into them by the powers that be. In my country, there is a three pronged attack: From the government, with the so called "Race relations act" and other such things, second propaganda from that Cultural Marxist organisation the BBC (or ABC as I call them- Anti British Coperation) , which is all over their history site and also their programmes and news; thirdly, in schools, where all kinds of unsubtle propaganda is used against the impressionable youth. In these places, the "Holocaust" and it's themes of racial persecution are drilled into the minds of children from a young age. They treat it like those who oppose immigration want the extermination of the immigrants! It's not said outright, but the way the BBC and co. focus on the racial aspects on Nazism is telling. Nobody says anything about the Soviets, who were much more elegetarian but were much worse.

Back to my original point, what I'm saying is people prefer to listen to stuff that fits their opinion rather than the other way round. Everybody prefers that, because none of us want to admit we're wrong, because then we would have to detach ourselves from whatever deeply held opinion we had before. In my country, England, nobody is really too happy about the masses of immigration if they are properly honest. But we feel we are "racist" if we say anything, and racism is like Nazism, and the supposedely ultra-racist Nazis perpetrated the "Holocaust". One of the only taboos left in the world of today is race and race-religion, if you understand what the latter means. So we take in this Holocaust propaganda, and other such stuff to satisfy our need to feel better about our seemingly unjustified belief in multiculturalism and tolerance, which have always been nothing more than quite empty words. Everybody wants to believe in this things, in a idealistic way, whatever reality is. Well, that is an English viewpoint on us and our government's need for the Holocaust horror propaganda.

The experiences of your children are certainly not unique. At my school (a grammer school, if anybody's wondering) the "Holocaust" has, from my memory, manifested itself in 3 areas: History, Religion, and a trip to the Holocaust center in Nottingham.

As to the second, in year 8 we covered Judaism, and we spent a considerable amount of time on the "Holocaust". Infact, we might of spent more time than Jewish customs. Even the Jewish beliefs were mixed in with the big H. I cannot name it for you, but we watched one cartoon which was framed around a elderly Jewish man talking to his granddaughter. I can't remember it to well, but there were images of a Jewish man being harrased and another of a Jewish family having to celebrate one of the religious celebrations in secret. We also watched a video about Anne Frank.

As for the latter, I discussed my visit there in the above thread. There was a museum part, of which I can't really remember much aside from a glass screen from which behind hung a Swatstika, and on which was inscribed anti-Jewish sentiments- "The Jews are not welcome here" and such- in both English and German. I didn't realise it then, but this is clearly anti-German hate propaganda. I mean, why else have it in two languages. I took a photo of that, the "Holocaust survivor" we met, and also the outside garden, which was for reflection. If I can I will try to upload these pictures sometime.

As rerevision points out, no wonder our kids believe this stuff when the BBC, a respected company, continues to push all the lies about National Socialist Germany and it's allies. Somewhat sadly, many of these kids will never find the truth about history. They will never find this forum, or numerous other excellent historical revisionist sites. They might never read the speeches of Hitler and the other NS leaders- because after all they present a different view to the history of these men and the wider historical events of that time. Especially with the Hitler speeches, such speeches are rarely given translations when given as film footage in documentaries, atleast to my knowledge. The only excerpts are such tired mis quotes, which we all know about. Perhaps the reason these speeches are presented as such is because they sound quite threatening, but if you try to listen to the words they never are. An effective propaganda technique.
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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby astro3 » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:22 pm)

If MKK is now doing WW1 in schools (Nov 20), he might find my new article in the Revisionist journal of ‘Inconvenient History’ of interest, about 'the Avoidability of WW1' (its very much from my studying Rudolf Steiner’s comments upon the topic). http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/index.php In WW1, British soldiers were motivated to fight by a torrent of atrocity-propaganda from their own government, about Germany. At the end of the war, it emerged that these lies had all been fabricated, which led to a discrediting of British military intelligence. (see ‘Propaganda for War,’ Stewart Halsey Ross, 2009) Whereas after WW2, the atrocity propaganda against Germany which had driven people to fight was endorsed by the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg. Every one believed that what was there endorsed by the victorious powers - Britain, America and Russia - must be true.
And so the horror-myth was born, lumbering forth like some Frankenstein to bring ruin to the whole of postwar culture.

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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby Mkk » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:28 pm)

Astro,

Thankyou for the article. I am a she, by the way.

To be fair to the history teachers, they did admit all that stuff about the Germans killing Nuns in Belgium was fabricated.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: My experiences with "Holocaust" teaching in schools

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 8 years 3 weeks ago (Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:42 pm)

Mkk wrote:Astro,

Thankyou for the article. I am a she, by the way.

To be fair to the history teachers, they did admit all that stuff about the Germans killing Nuns in Belgium was fabricated.


Don't you wonder why they admit the WWI atrocity propaganda was a lie, but still cling to believing the WWII versions. How can that be? Doesn't anyone use any reasoning powers? What is your answer to that? And has that been discussed in your classroom?
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