'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Blogbuster » 7 years 8 months ago (Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:50 pm)

Cloud wrote:
Does anyone know the reason, why he behaves like this? What is the motivation of this guy? Or what is the motivation of any Anti-German Germans anyway.

What motivates exterminationists in general? Why do they have such a need to prove revisionists wrong? Why do exterminationists frequently resort to using hostility, intimidation, and vulgarities, rather than reason? And If revisionists are right, why exactly would that be a bad thing? Who badly wants the jews to die in gas chambers, the revisionist or the exterminationist?



Fair question Cloud. I think in the case of Muehlenkamp and his associates, the debate and controversy is what's important. Not historical accuracy either one way, or the other.

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Cloud » 7 years 8 months ago (Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:34 pm)

Where can we go to find the negatives for each of the atrocity photos that have appeared in this thread? I'm talking about these things:

Image

1940s era cameras looked like these:

http://licm.org.uk/livingImage/1940Room.html

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 7 months ago (Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:33 am)

Here the SS are caught in the act of pouring the Zyklon in through the roof hatch:

Image

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Blogbuster » 7 years 7 months ago (Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:13 am)

Cloud wrote:
Does anyone know the reason, why he behaves like this? What is the motivation of this guy? Or what is the motivation of any Anti-German Germans anyway.

What motivates exterminationists in general? Why do they have such a need to prove revisionists wrong? Why do exterminationists frequently resort to using hostility, intimidation, and vulgarities, rather than reason? And If revisionists are right, why exactly would that be a bad thing? Who badly wants the jews to die in gas chambers, the revisionist or the exterminationist?



More problematic about images and data posted on the Holocaust Controversies blog is the rationale and mental state of the blog authors. The fact is well known that at least one of the key H-C authors; Roberto Muehlenkamp in particular, admits to suffering from agitated depression.

*For those wondering what that is, see the info below from the survivingdepression.net website:Symptoms of Agitated Depression

Agitated depression has myriad symptoms which are expressed during a depressive episode. If you experience any two symptoms concurrently for several days you should seek help from a mental health care professional. The symptoms to look out for include:

•Pacing
•Handwringing
•Inability to sit still
•Pulling or rubbing on hair, skin, or clothing
•Outbursts of complaining or shouting
Talking on and on - cannot seem to stop talking
•You are anxious and restless
•Find it hard to define your problems
•Wander restlessly around, making the same complaints over and over


You will note from the bullets above that many of the H-C posts, and threads can be easily linked to all of these symptoms, the treatment of which requires intensive, long-term drug therapy.

My point being this; can, or should people be expected to take seriously the information posted by those suffering from such afflictions? It's clear that many of Roberto's online outbursts are systemic to his disease, and most certainly occur during his depressive episodes (as defined by the disease symptoms). It stands to reason that the man is under the influence of mind altering medication, so perhaps we should pity H-C rather than hold it in contempt?

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Kurland » 7 years 7 months ago (Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:38 am)

Blogbuster wrote:My point being this; can, or should people be expected to take seriously the information posted by those suffering from such afflictions? It's clear that many of Roberto's online outbursts are systemic to his disease, and most certainly occur during his depressive episodes (as defined by the disease symptoms). It stands to reason that the man is under the influence of mind altering medication, so perhaps we should pity H-C rather than hold it in contempt?


For starters you could discuss something of value to revisionists instead of constantly bringing up these so called "authors". Or is there something else?

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Blogbuster » 7 years 7 months ago (Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:49 am)

Kurland wrote:
Blogbuster wrote:My point being this; can, or should people be expected to take seriously the information posted by those suffering from such afflictions? It's clear that many of Roberto's online outbursts are systemic to his disease, and most certainly occur during his depressive episodes (as defined by the disease symptoms). It stands to reason that the man is under the influence of mind altering medication, so perhaps we should pity H-C rather than hold it in contempt?


For starters you could discuss something of value to revisionists instead of constantly bringing up these so called "authors". Or is there something else?

•Talking on and on - cannot seem to stop talking


Responding to a question about why the HC authors behave the way they do, and providing data regarding the mental state of the authors, is in my opinion, relevant to the thread topic.

My humble apologies if you feel differently.

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 7 months ago (Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:21 am)

Edwardthegrey wrote :
So what Mr Roberto Muehlenkamp is stating here, is that under no circumstances should someones evidence should be thrown out due to the fact that they were caught giving false evidence. However, Mr Roberto Muehlenkamp fails to understand that had this have been an actual trial, and not a sorry excuse for one, the Soviets case would have been thrown out due to perjury.


As far as i understood his post, he only says that the evidence - which is undisputed - that the Soviets manipulated some of their crimes does not mean that we should immidiatly reject some of their investigations, if those can be corroborate by other evidences.
And this logic can be applied to the Germans as well : In 1943, they discovered 4.000 bodies at Katyn, but Goebles claimed 15.000...facts are that even this number is underestimated, according to polish sources, of course...Historians - Revisionists or orthodox alike - should not be stucked to the role of lawyers or prosecutors!
As far as i know, Roberto Muehlenkamp does not deny Soviet's crimes...

Now you keep asking for autopsies - another judicial concept - under a pictured of people hanged ? Even without touching the body, i could conclude "death by strangulation"!
Do you have examples of criminals doing autopsies on their victims ? Or do you imagine it would have been possible to make an autopsies on every single victim of WW2 ? Do you need an autopsy of the corpse of a child found burned in a Cellar in Dresden to determine the cause of his death ? Do you need an autopsy of every German soldiers who died at Stalingrad during the siege ? No, because it is obvious that they died from frostbites, starvation or by bullet, etc...Does the absence of autopsies mean there is no proofs that any German soldier did die at Stalingrad?

Justice is the worst example of the kind of science you ask to be applied to historical researches. Did anyone of you witness a trial where defense and accusation agree on a murder? Most of the time, the accused pleads not guity and the accusation guilty and that is it! A bunch of undereducated people, selected by both side, will make the final decision...and that is Justice! But one thing i undisputed : someone has been killed!

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Hannover » 7 years 7 months ago (Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:37 pm)

Balsamo said:
... that the Soviets manipulated some of their crimes does not mean that we should immidiatly reject some of their investigations, if those can be corroborate by other evidences.

What other investigations?
What other "evidences"?
Or do you mean the communist Soviets ' forensic study' accepted at Nuremberg which 'proved' mass murder of Jews via steam chambers?

There is a genuine, original document from the Nuremberg trials.
It absurdly stated that 840,000 Russian POW's where killed in Sachenhausen and then the Germans cremated them in 4 portable ovens.
calculation :
Experts in the business say it takes at least 1.5 hour to cremate one body today. Then it's 840,000 bodies x 1.5 hour =1,260,000 hours / 24 hours = 52,200 days / 365 days = 143.8 years / 4 ovens = 35.95 years, if the Germans where running it 24 hours per day. ref: IMT VII page 586

In real courts of law if one side is caught lying the entire validity of all their arguments is raised, it's called credibility.

and:
Justice is the worst example of the kind of science you ask to be applied to historical researches. Did anyone of you witness a trial where defense and accusation agree on a murder? Most of the time, the accused pleads not guity and the accusation guilty and that is it! A bunch of undereducated people, selected by both side, will make the final decision...and that is Justice! But one thing i undisputed : someone has been killed!

Wrong. It is highly disputed in regards to the 'holocaust' claims'. The "someone has been killed", meaning 6m Jews & 5-6m 'others' is quite disputed. But using your single murder analogy, there is no body to show that they have been killed.

In the 'holocaust' case, there are no human remains commensurate with the claims made. There is not a single excavation which can be shown that conforms to the 'holocaust' claims of mass graves, not one. Which is particularly damning since the precise locations of these alleged mass graves is known, according to so called 'eyewitness / survivor' statements.

Sorry Balsamo, you not doing much to help the thoroughly refuted Roberto Muehlenkamp.

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Last edited by Hannover on Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby The Warden » 7 years 7 months ago (Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:39 pm)

Balsamo wrote:As far as i understood his post, he only says that the evidence - which is undisputed - that the Soviets manipulated some of their crimes does not mean that we should immidiatly reject some of their investigations, if those can be corroborate by other evidences.
And this logic can be applied to the Germans as well : In 1943, they discovered 4.000 bodies at Katyn, but Goebles claimed 15.000...facts are that even this number is underestimated, according to polish sources, of course...Historians - Revisionists or orthodox alike - should not be stucked to the role of lawyers or prosecutors!
As far as i know, Roberto Muehlenkamp does not deny Soviet's crimes...


Goebbels said that to reinforce the propaganda machine and drive a wedge between the Polish, the Allies, and the Soviets. The fact is Goebbels only inflated a number while the crime was a reality, keeping in mind that the Soviets wound up being the ones who committed the act and there was sufficient proof presented by the Germans. It was Allied propaganda that led people to believe the Germans committed the act.

You are correct about one thing: Revisionists and historians shouldn't be "stucked [sic] to the role of lawyers and prosecutors". We've seen what a mess they can make of things. If historians and Revisionists were to act in the same fashion as lawyers and prosecutors, one can only imagine the amount of damage done to the truth, which should always be based on scientific proof, not the emotional rants of victims or victors.

Now back to your original point about RM; If his intention was to say all evidence needs to be determined true, partially true or false, or completely false based on its own merits and not that of previous evidence, then that's true, but if RM is fueling some sort of propaganda machine like Goebbels, then I don't think anyone would find that hard to believe.

Balsamo wrote:Justice is the worst example of the kind of science you ask to be applied to historical researches. Did anyone of you witness a trial where defense and accusation agree on a murder?


This happens all the time during plea arrangements and before sentencing. They agree the crime was committed, but the severity and intent are normally reached via compromise.

Balsamo wrote:Most of the time, the accused pleads not guity and the accusation guilty and that is it! A bunch of undereducated people, selected by both side, will make the final decision...and that is Justice!


The purpose of the prosecution and defense is to give those "uneducated" people a crash course in whatever the subject through expert witness testimony. By the time the verdict is delivered, the jury is supposed to have all the evidence from both sides and a decision is based on that as it stands. They are not "uneducated" by the time the decision is being made.

Balsamo wrote:But one thing i undisputed : someone has been killed!


Wrong!
Someone is no longer alive.
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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby EdwardTheGray » 7 years 7 months ago (Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:03 am)

As far as i understood his post, he only says that the evidence - which is undisputed - that the Soviets manipulated some of their crimes does not mean that we should immidiatly reject some of their investigations, if those can be corroborate by other evidences.


Undisputed? How can it be? No other country has done any investigations into the matter due to the iron curtain! And can you provide some of this evidence please? Or by evidence, do you mean physical evidence, or so called documents and "eye witness testimony"?

Now you keep asking for autopsies - another judicial concept - under a pictured of people hanged ? Even without touching the body, i could conclude "death by strangulation"!
Do you have examples of criminals doing autopsies on their victims ? Or do you imagine it would have been possible to make an autopsies on every single victim of WW2 ? Do you need an autopsy of the corpse of a child found burned in a Cellar in Dresden to determine the cause of his death ? Do you need an autopsy of every German soldiers who died at Stalingrad during the siege ? No, because it is obvious that they died from frostbites, starvation or by bullet, etc...Does the absence of autopsies mean there is no proofs that any German soldier did die at Stalingrad?
I do not remember asking for autopsies of the ones that were hanged, but I do remember speaking about the reason that they were hanged. And no autopsies of the dead of a so called "extermination"? As I remember correctly, soldiers are not murdered in battle. This strawman you are trying to implement here is rather weak.

Justice is the worst example of the kind of science you ask to be applied to historical researches. Did anyone of you witness a trial where defense and accusation agree on a murder? Most of the time, the accused pleads not guity and the accusation guilty and that is it! A bunch of undereducated people, selected by both side, will make the final decision...and that is Justice! But one thing i undisputed : someone has been killed!
But has the person who has been killed die of battle, sickness, or murder?

The point I am making about this, is that in a real court of law, if one side is caught lying, then their case is weak. And why should someone lie if there are mounds of evidence out there that supposedly prove wrong doing? You can find mounds of topics here on this board that deals with the so called evidence.

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 7 months ago (Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:07 pm)

The Warden said

Goebbels said that to reinforce the propaganda machine and drive a wedge between the Polish, the Allies, and the Soviets. The fact is Goebbels only inflated a number while the crime was a reality


Well, the Warden, that is basically all i wanted to say. In this regard, you cannot simply deny a murder only because Propaganda has been made out of it. Whatever party did the propaganda.

Edwardthe grey said
Undisputed? How can it be? No other country has done any investigations into the matter due to the iron curtain! And can you provide some of this evidence please? Or by evidence, do you mean physical evidence, or so called documents and "eye witness testimony"?


Even at Nurenberg, western allies were not naive of the Katyn manipulation...Of course, this is the most famous...
As for the evidence, what are they supposed to be related to ? The massacre of their own liberated prisoners ? of the Cosacks? of the surviving non-communist polish and Baltic States' intelligentia ? Well right now, i can nor do i bother give any physical evidence...so they all must have been resettled peacefully somewhere...my mistake...
As for the treatments of German pows during the War, the archives are available...

As I remember correctly, soldiers are not murdered in battle

I am affraid, you don't remember correctly...there are - in theory - "Rules of war"...so it all depend of how they did die in battle.
And again, you don't need autopsies of the victims to state that the bombing of Desden was a war crime...Of course, they won't be legal evidence as there are no trial of victors ever...Still the crime remains...


The point I am making about this, is that in a real court of law, if one side is caught lying, then their case is weak


I agree on that one...But i should remind you that the Soviets only participated at the first Nurenberg trial...They did not participated to the next ones, nor to all post-war trials...and anyway,; a specific evidence can be dismissed without putting the whole case in jeopardy...

PS: Hannover, you keep refering to Nurenberg and the six millions figures...As i don't consider the dirst one fair and don't agree with the number...Who would expect a post-war trial to be fair anyway...but that does not mean that every single peace of evidence has to be put in the bin all together...And i am not aware that the more obviously flase soviet's evidences have been used in later trials...

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby EdwardTheGray » 7 years 7 months ago (Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:27 pm)

Even at Nurenberg, western allies were not naive of the Katyn manipulation...Of course, this is the most famous...
As for the evidence, what are they supposed to be related to ? The massacre of their own liberated prisoners ? of the Cosacks? of the surviving non-communist polish and Baltic States' intelligentia ? Well right now, i can nor do i bother give any physical evidence...so they all must have been resettled peacefully somewhere...my mistake...
As for the treatments of German pows during the War, the archives are available...


No, I agree, they were not naive, but they did not say anything against the Russians, and they knew that it was false from the beginning since they knew about it. That puts both parties at risk of being biased, and is another reason why we raise questions.

They did not raise the issue of the evidence that the Soviets did it, but they let the Soviets submit it. They were more concerned with convicting Germany then truth. That tells of their biased views against Germany.

And the evidence? Surely you understand that we are talking about those autopsies of the ones presented by the Soviets right? You know, the ones where the Soviets submitted and we are supposed to take for granted?

And you do not care right now for physical evidence? That is like saying that you will take the witnesses word for it, without any kind of evidence at all.

I am affraid, you don't remember correctly...there are - in theory - "Rules of war"...so it all depend of how they did die in battle.
And again, you don't need autopsies of the victims to state that the bombing of Desden was a war crime...Of course, they won't be legal evidence as there are no trial of victors ever...Still the crime remains...


Yes, but you and I were talking about war, not war crimes. You made the point about it, I am just answering.

Actually, yes, in any war crime, there should be autopsies. But here is the thing, why has no one tried to show us these mass graves so autopsies could be done? Why has no bodies been found?

a specific evidence can be dismissed without putting the whole case in jeopardy
Yes, but not the person lying in the case. They are caught, then, as I have pointed out earlier in this post, lying under oath could cause your whole case to be thrown out.

And why are you ignoring most of Hannover's points?

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Re: 'Holocaust Controversies' problems / images

Postby Hannover » 7 years 7 months ago (Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:29 pm)

Balsamo said:
Hannover, you keep refering to Nurenberg and the six millions figures...As i don't consider the dirst one fair and don't agree with the number...Who would expect a post-war trial to be fair anyway...but that does not mean that every single peace of evidence has to be put in the bin all together...And i am not aware that the more obviously flase soviet's evidences have been used in later trials...

This is really funny. It's Jews who 'keep referring to Nuremberg and the six million figures'.
Not fair? Agreed. Patently ridiculous? Indeed.
It means the sources for the allegations are not to be / should not be trusted.

ETG asked:
And why are you ignoring most of Hannover's points?

Yes, do tell. Why are you ignoring most of my points?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Holocaust Controversies problems / images

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 7 months ago (Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:58 am)

Mkk wrote:Remember, the Russians massacred millions of their own, and the dead in Dachau, Bergen Belsen etc. are kind of allied deaths, because they perpetrated the bombings. Otherwise, they could be pictures in black and white more or less anywhere. The HC blog needs to provide irrefutable proof these are Jews and they were gassed/killed some other way (other than a possibly false caption from a book or website).


Everything i wanted to insist on is in this quote from Mkk.
In the same quote we have a positive declaration that the Russians massacred millions of their own - massacre about which i doubt Mkk does have any autopsies or physical evidences - and i guess that even if he could come up with pics of those millions massacred, he would be confronted with his own logic of denial.
However the HC has to provide irrefutable proof to support the pictures...
Double standard, anyone ?

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Re: Holocaust Controversies problems / images

Postby Mkk » 7 years 7 months ago (Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:12 pm)

Balsamo wrote:
Mkk wrote:Remember, the Russians massacred millions of their own, and the dead in Dachau, Bergen Belsen etc. are kind of allied deaths, because they perpetrated the bombings. Otherwise, they could be pictures in black and white more or less anywhere. The HC blog needs to provide irrefutable proof these are Jews and they were gassed/killed some other way (other than a possibly false caption from a book or website).


Everything i wanted to insist on is in this quote from Mkk.
In the same quote we have a positive declaration that the Russians massacred millions of their own - massacre about which i doubt Mkk does have any autopsies or physical evidences - and i guess that even if he could come up with pics of those millions massacred, he would be confronted with his own logic of denial.
However the HC has to provide irrefutable proof to support the pictures...
Double standard, anyone ?

I am a she, by the way. Anyway, I read an article a while ago with statistical info on the deaths, sorry, I can't remember where it is. I believe it to be on the VHO site, but that's a big place.

Anyway, this forum is not for debate on the killings by the Russians, it is for the killings, real or imagined, by the Germans.

"Logic of denial", what's that? Just because I won't except a few mass grave photos that could be from anywhere as proof for Gassed/shot Jews? Oh comeon. As for the physical evidence, for one example look at the report on the Katyn massacre. I know those are Poles but anyway. I won't go any farther into this debate on Russian killings, it's not my field of expertise and it's not what the forum is for.
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