How Many at Babi Yar

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Secret Anne X
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How Many at Babi Yar

Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:52 pm)

Hi,

I am starting this thread at request.

So again.

-- it is said 32,000 were killed there, but both Hilberg and Levin cut that number in half. Why?

-- I seem to recall Leni Yahil also questioned that number. Why?

-- I have heard about this 100,000 number, but I have never seen it substantiated. Where?

-- I hope no one is saying that most of 100,000 bodies could be dug up and burned on railroad tracks in a few days!

-- Again, about this group 1005, I am not questioning that it was out there, but I would like direction to the documents about how it was set up, by whom, who was in it, when it was active, until what point, where did it go, and how much time did it spend at each location, and so on.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:57 pm)

see 'Babi Yar debunked':
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=41

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:59 pm)

Secret Anne X wrote:Hi,

About Babi Yar, I have a few questions.

-- I think it is said that 32,000 people were killed there over a two days, but Hilberg and Levin both cut that number in half. Why?


The figure usually quoted is 33,771, mentioned in two Einsatzgruppen reports:

http://www1.us.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/ger ... r-101.html

http://www1.us.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/ger ... r-106.html

The 16,000 number comes, we believe, from the Nuremberg testimony of SS-Colonel Paul Blobel, who was commander of Einsatzkommando 4a, which reportedly carried out the Babi Yar massacre.

-- I keep hearing about this Group 1005 or whatever. I am not questioning its existence but where are the documents about its formation, its structure, the areas it worked at and on what dates, and so on?


This from the book The Field Men by Mr. French Maclean:

SONDERKOMMANDO 1005

Formed: July 1942

Campaign: Conceal Nazi crimes at Einsatzkommando killing sites and at select extermination camps to include Chelmno, Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Auschwitz.

Commanders: Paul Blobel

Parent formation: RSHA

Army Area Assignment: Einsatzkommando execution sites in Army Group North, Center and South.

Victims: Several thousand; Jews and other prisoners did the heavy physical work of site destruction after which they were put to death.

Disbanded: October 1944

Remarks: Sonderkommando 1005 activities in the Einsatzgruppen areas got into full swing in the spring of 1943. In the Ukraine, Blobel organized two subordinate units, Sonderkommando 1005A and Sonderkommando 1005B. The units worked at Babi Yar and Dnepropetrovsk, as well as Berdichev, Uman and Nikolayev. At Minsk, Karl Harder, Blobel's deputy, organised an additional unit, Sonderkommando 1005-Mitte. This unit operated in Byelorussia. Other Sonderkommando 1005 units saw work in the Baltic states. Most of the German personnel in the Sonderkommando were assembled in Salzburg, Austria in October 1944 and reassigned - again under the command of Paul Blobel - to Einsatzgruppe Iltis to fight Yugoslav partisans in the area of Carinthia. Einsatzgruppe Iltis fielded two sub units, Einsatzkommando 12 and Einsatzkommando 13.


You are correct that the documentary record for SK 1005 appears to be scant. In a moment of weakness, one might indeed be tempted to deny that it actually existed. After all, if its organisation and field of operations could be firmly established, revisionists would be faced with the awkward task of explaining its alternative purpose.

In December 1944, the Soviets issued one of their official reports on crimes by the 'German-Fascist invaders', regarding the occupation of the Lvov region in Ukraine (the District of Galicia to the Germans). Here's the relevant excerpt:

SPECIAL MEASURES TAKEN BY THE GERMAN INVADERS TO COVER UP THEIR CRIMES

As a result of the successful offensive of the Red Army and the panicky retreat of the German-Fascist troops, the Hitlerite Government and Military Command proceeded to cover up their monstrous crimes in exterminating civilians, Soviet war prisoners and nationals of France, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Holland, Belgium, the United States of America and Great Britain, who had been kept in German concentration camps in the Lvov Region.

On the instructions of Reichsminister of Germany Himmler and Maj.-Gen. of S. S. Police Katzmann, in June 1943 special measures were taken to exhume and burn the bodies of civilians, Soviet war prisoners and nationals of foreign States who had been tortured to death or shot. In Lvov the Germans formed a special Sonderkommando, No. 1,005, consisting of 126 men. Chief of this squad was Hauptsturmbannfuehrer Scherlak; his assistant was Hauptsturmbannfuehrer Rauch.

The duties of the Sonderkommando included exhuming and burning the bodies of civilians and war prisoners murdered by the Germans. S.D. Scharfuehrer Rauch and S.D. Oberwachtmeister Kepick were in charge. The bodies extracted from the pits were laid on special platforms in stacks containing 1,200 to 1,600 bodies each. Tar and petrol were poured on the bodies, which were then burned. The ashes and remnants of bones were sifted in order to collect gold articles - gold fillings, teeth, rings, watches.

[...]

On the territory of the Lvov region, therefore, the Hitlerite murderers pursued the same method of concealing their crimes which they used earlier when they killed Polish officers in the wood near Katyn. The Commission of Experts has established that the method of camouflaging the graves in the Lisincki area was completely identical with the methods used in camouflaging the graves of the Polish officers killed by the Germans in Katyn.

To spread their experience in methods of exterminating people, burning bodies and covering up crimes, the Germans created in the Yanovska Camp, Lvov, a special school for training "skilled cadres". To this school came camp commandants from Lublin, Warsaw, Cracow and other towns. Right on the spot the Chief of Sonderkommando No. 1005, Scherlak, taught commandants how to exhume bodies from the earth, how to stack them up, burn them, sift the ashes, crush the bones, fill the pits and camouflage them by planting trees and shrubbery.


One place to start would be the SS personnel file on Colonel Blobel, held by the National Archives under the file number A3343 SSO-076. That should confirm what he was doing between July 1942 and July 1944.

Mr. Blobel, flanked by two friends, at Nuremberg:

Image


Mr. Blobel in happier times:

Image

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:23 pm)

On the territory of the Lvov region, therefore, the Hitlerite murderers pursued the same method of concealing their crimes which they used earlier when they killed Polish officers in the wood near Katyn. The Commission of Experts has established that the method of camouflaging the graves in the Lisincki area was completely identical with the methods used in camouflaging the graves of the Polish officers killed by the Germans in Katyn.


Oh dear, so sad !

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Postby Guptalicious » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:35 pm)

Whether or not there is strong evidence for an Aktion 1005 there is no reason why such would not exist. On the other hand if the unit consisted of only 125 persons then it was clearly too small for its tasks.

It strikes us as perfectly reasonable that there would be attempts to do maintenance on mass graves if not for concealment then at least for hygiene. Forensic evidence at Belzec for example indicates that at least some graves were opened and the bodies burned, or partially burned, in situ of those probably tens of thousands who died or were killed there.

On the other hand there would be a desire to conceal mass graves as the Germans ceded territory to the Russians after Kursk. Himmler's speeches of October 1943 in which he described the necessity of killing civilians including children indicates a desire to get in front of the story prior to, or in response to, Soviet accusations.

It bears repeating that many revisionists do not question high totals of shooting deaths on the Eastern Front, what some revisionist do is request more detail, and that is a perfectly legitimate request. But the case is overstated when it is argued that the existence of Aktion 1005, or even the presence of mass graves, somehow discomfits revisionists. All we want is something more than preposterous legends and Soviet propaganda.

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Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:03 pm)

SAX, please document your claims.

I hope no one is saying that most of 100,000 bodies could be dug up and burned on railroad tracks in a few days!


Why few days? A month or two. 2000 bodies per "furnace".

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 8:29 pm)

Hi,

I don't have to document my claims because I am the one asking questions!

-- Hilberg and Levin both say that 16,000 were killed at Babi Yar. Why?

-- Leni Yahil also does not say that 32,000 were killed there. Why?

-- What is the source of the 100,000 figure? If it is a Soviet Report, why is it credible?

-- What are the facts and figures about Group 1005 including its organization, composition, activities, and so on?

-- Is it being claimed that 2,000 people could be cremated on rack of railroad tracks every day by 125 people? I just want to make sure that is what it being claimed here!

-- On that score, there's a big difference between a month and two months in the claim "a month or two" -- that's about whether the burnings consumed 2,000 a day or 4,000 a day!

This is the third time I have asked these questions, and if they are not answered in full next time around I won't be posting on this subject anymore and people will draw their own conclusions!

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Nov 29, 2003 9:51 pm)

Guptalicious said:
Forensic evidence at Belzec for example indicates that at least some graves were opened and the bodies burned, or partially burned, in situ of those probably tens of thousands who died or were killed there.


While this is not the thread to discuss it, I suggest that he see the various Belzec posts here which shatter his notion, mine are particularily brilliant and informative. :wink: I also recommend Tom Moran's work on our homepage. There were no 'tens of thousands' killed at Belzec.

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Postby Hyman » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:06 am)

SPECIAL MEASURES TAKEN BY THE GERMAN INVADERS TO COVER UP THEIR CRIMES

As a result of the successful offensive of the Red Army and the panicky retreat of the German-Fascist troops, the Hitlerite Government and Military Command proceeded to cover up their monstrous crimes in exterminating civilians, Soviet war prisoners and nationals of France, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Holland, Belgium, the United States of America and Great Britain, who had been kept in German concentration camps in the Lvov Region.

On the instructions of Reichsminister of Germany Himmler and Maj.-Gen. of S. S. Police Katzmann, in June 1943 special measures were taken to exhume and burn the bodies of civilians, Soviet war prisoners and nationals of foreign States who had been tortured to death or shot. In Lvov the Germans formed a special Sonderkommando, No. 1,005, consisting of 126 men. Chief of this squad was Hauptsturmbannfuehrer Scherlak; his assistant was Hauptsturmbannfuehrer Rauch.

The duties of the Sonderkommando included exhuming and burning the bodies of civilians and war prisoners murdered by the Germans. S.D. Scharfuehrer Rauch and S.D. Oberwachtmeister Kepick were in charge. The bodies extracted from the pits were laid on special platforms in stacks containing 1,200 to 1,600 bodies each. Tar and petrol were poured on the bodies, which were then burned. The ashes and remnants of bones were sifted in order to collect gold articles - gold fillings, teeth, rings, watches.


The alleged digging up of the mass graves is surely among the most unbelievable episodes in Holocaust lore. But I’ve yet to hear of the “mainstream” Holocaust historian who questions it, although it’s not dwelled upon that much I suppose. As the story goes, Blobel and his 126 men get out there in search of a million or more buried corpses. Once they find a grave, they dig up the corpses, then pile them up and burn them with scarce petrol. If that wouldn’t be time-consuming enough, they then, like eager prospectors, sift through the ashes in search of gold teeth and watches! But they have a monumental task and if they get behind schedule and need to rush along their work, they have another method of getting rid of the incriminating evidence. They blow up the mass graves with dynamite! Yes, that’s bound to make everything neat and tidy. So one is left thinking the ex post facto grave digging exploits are in reality an ex post facto explanation for a lack of mass graves. It’s odd how the communists would go to the trouble of writing up the supposed German methods but not, for propaganda purposes, to the trouble of uncovering some of the mass graves. When it comes to Holocaust lore, as the kids say, it’s all good.

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/t ... lobel.html

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:32 am)

This is not to switch the topic from Babi Yar, but the absurd exhumation/cremation lies reach their peak with Treblinka. There, **900,000** Jews were supposedly gassed with diesel exhaust, buried, exhumed, and cremated in a similar fashion to Babi Yar. And just like Babi Yar there is no mass grave from which this all occurred, no physical evidence whatsoever; an utterly ridiculous situation.

These are two classic examples of the 'holocaust' fraud.

for more on Treblinka simply use our search function....'Treblinka' and post to one of those threads if desired.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:22 am)

Guptalicious wrote:Whether or not there is strong evidence for an Aktion 1005 there is no reason why such would not exist. On the other hand if the unit consisted of only 125 persons then it was clearly too small for its tasks.


We wouldn't read too much into that figure. A literal reading of Soviet propaganda is ill-advised. The main point is the specific identification of SK 1005 with the clearance of mass graves.

It bears repeating that many revisionists do not question high totals of shooting deaths on the Eastern Front, what some revisionist do is request more detail, and that is a perfectly legitimate request.


To our mind, the situation is starker than that. The divide amongst revisionists prepared to accept the occurrence of mass shootings revolves around the question of their systematic nature, and the dynamic between the local commanders in the field and the SS leadership in Berlin. Consider three cases. Was the Babi Yar massacre, a mass reprisal for the mining of Kiev, decided upon by local commanders? Was the Bloody Sunday massacre in Riga on November 30 1941 part of the Final Solution or one occasioned by the need to clear room in the ghetto for incoming transports of Reich Jews? How can a document such as the Jager report, assuming its authenticity, be reconciled with anything but a general policy of racial extermination?

But the case is overstated when it is argued that the existence of Aktion 1005, or even the presence of mass graves, somehow discomfits revisionists. All we want is something more than preposterous legends and Soviet propaganda.


And so say all of us.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:13 pm)

Hebden wrote: Consider three cases. Was the Babi Yar massacre, a mass reprisal for the mining of Kiev, decided upon by local commanders? Was the Bloody Sunday massacre in Riga on November 30 1941 part of the Final Solution or one occasioned by the need to clear room in the ghetto for incoming transports of Reich Jews? How can a document such as the Jager report, assuming its authenticity, be reconciled with anything but a general policy of racial extermination?

Please explain:

Where are the mass graves of the Babi Jar massacre of 35,000?

Where are the mass graves of Riga massacre of 10,000?

Where are the mass graves of the major massacres mentioned in the Jäger Report (Wilna 21,169, Eysisky 3,446, Kaisiadorys 1,911, Kauen 23,203, Mariampole 5,328, Panevezys 8,837, Svenciany 3,726, Ukmerge 6,356) ?


fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:06 pm)

Sailor, there are no such mass graves. There should be if the stories are true, but obviously they're propaganda. The mass shootings as claimed are the last refuge for the Believers as the ridiculous gas chambers become unsustainable.
There has not been one mass grave unearthed which supports the stories of the 'holocaust', not one.

This is the typical logic that pervades the religious faithful, from Guptalicious:
Whether or not there is strong evidence for an Aktion 1005 there is no reason why such would not exist.

Oh, boy.

According to the mythology you shouldn't be able to dig a hole in most of eastern Europe without hitting a grave of Jews. The unsustainable mass shooting allegations against the Einsatzgruppen go as high as 2,000,000.

So, is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?

No mass graves as alleged, no 'holocaust'.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:09 pm)

For god's sake ! How many of these stupid bloody mass graves are there meant to be ? This is becoming farcical ! These graves seem to be everywhere but nowhere. There seems to be an endless stream of these dismal accusations, and not a single one has ever been substantiated with hard evidence, all there ever seems to be is some dog-eared scrap of paper that Hebden seems to dig up and recite over and over again, like some senile bureaucrat. I get the feeling he swamps the threads with his volumious conjecture to muddy the waters.

Why do you always talk in a manner that presumes all has been proven?

A copy and pasting of some Commu/Zionist babble proves nothing !

Sailor has named various supposed sites of alleged bodies, can you for once show us some evidence to confirm just one of these accusations ?
The only evidence I have seen, is the German excavations at the Zionist murder site at Katyn. I have never seen anything like this in regard to the So-called German atrocities.

I always thought 'not guilty until proven' was the manner to conduct things, not where the industry is concerned, that's for sure.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:51 pm)

Please explain:

Where are the mass graves of the Babi Jar massacre of 35,000?


The Germans took hundreds of thousands of Red Army POWs in the area around Kiev of which a good proportion would have died, through disease, malnutrition, exposure, over the next few months. Where are the mass graves of those who died in German POW camps?

The Babi Yar massacre is alleged to have been a reprisal for the mining of Kiev which resulted in the alleged deaths of hundreds of German troops and local civilians. Leaving aside the question of where the graves of the mining victims might be, do you accept that a reprisal of some description would have been a likely response? If so, how large would you estimate it would have been? 50? 500? 3000? And can you tell us where the graves are?

Where are the mass graves of Riga massacre of 10,000?


Mr. Sailor, you surely recall a previous thread devoted to this very event, wherein we put to you the following:

Mr. Himmler's telephone note of November 30: To Mr. Heydrich commanding Berlin transport not to be liquidated.

Mr. Himmler's telephone note of December 1: To Mr. Heydrich about 'executions at Riga'.

Two December 1 British intercepts from Mr. Himmler to SS Obergruppenfuhrer Jeckeln warning him that any further contraventions of the guidelines in regard to the Reich Jews being 'outplaced to the Ostland' will be punished and ordering him back to Berlin forthwith.

It's up to you to provide another plausible interpretation for the above sequence of messages.


http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=130

The thread was locked before you replied. Now's your opportunity.

Where are the mass graves of the major massacres mentioned in the Jäger Report (Wilna 21,169, Eysisky 3,446, Kaisiadorys 1,911, Kauen 23,203, Mariampole 5,328, Panevezys 8,837, Svenciany 3,726, Ukmerge 6,356) ?
fge


We don't know, but as you will appreciate, an absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence.


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