Hebden wrote: It's a nice speech, Mr. William, but we have to deal with the evidence such as it exists. The German documentary and eye-witness evidence for the Bloody Sunday massacre in Riga comes from four distinct sources: OSR report, Mr. Himmler's hand-written telephone notes, police decodes, CSDIC recording. Any conspiracy resourceful enough to coordinate fabrications of this order would, in our opinion, deserve to get away with it.
Back in Riga, Mr. Hebden?
It appears that you are a follower of Shermer's "theory of converging evidences", with the help of your personal interpretations of certain events. That is fine for you, but some people have a different approach to things.
We discussed this in the thread "Riga, November 30, 1941" http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... sc&start=0
As a technical person I asked then these questions:
1. To me, to say nonchalantly with a sleight of hands, that these people were all massacred without any solid proof is simply not enough. I need more information.
2. End of November, it was winter, and believe you me, it can be quite cold in that area, 30C below zero, it becomes difficult to breath. Was the ground covered with snow, ice? Or was the sun shining? Raining? Was it difficult to dig those mass graves?
3. Any other witnesses like for example the train personnel, the lokomotive drivers, the security police on the train?
4. Train traffic to and from Riga had to be halted in order to avoid collision, and who knows, thousands of witnesses to the alleged mass murder crime. Any witnesses or surviving documentations about this?
5. Were the trains “Personenzüge 3. Klasse” (trains for persons, 3rd class), we all used them many times then. Each wagon, if I remember correctly, had 6 or 8 doors on each side and two toilets, one at each wagon end. Or were they cattle cars, or freight cars?
6. The trains allegedly stopped outside a train station, with no loading platforms. The wagon floor is about 1.5 m (5 ft) above the tracks, the railroad track bed itself is usually raised above the general area, depending on the terrain, maybe at least 1.0 m (3 ft). And the tracks on ties are placed on a bed of crushed rock to prevent damage during rainfall. What all this indicates is, that it is not all that easy to get off the wagon, families with women and children, especially for older folks. Any information about this? How long did it take to disembark?
7. What with the luggage, was this left behind in the train? Or did they take it with them to the place of execution?
8. Even in “the middle of nowhere” there are people around. Where there any security measurements taken? Guards posted? Witnesses from the area around?
9. And how far did these 1000 people have to go the place of the massacre? How long would that take? I mean that they probably did no march like a troop of marines like Gomer Pile. And they had a long trip behind them. They were tired.
10. What if a little kid suddenly shouts: “Mutti, ich muß mal!” (Mom, I have to go potti!). There are 1000 people involved here, a very normal occurrence.
11. Now at the massacre site, did they all line up in one long line? Assuming 0.5 m width per person, that would give us a total length of 500 m, approximately 5 city blocks. Not to sneeze at. Or were they lined up in two rows, or three, or just one big disorganized crowd?
12. And how were they executed? Not with machine pistols? These at that time were quite inaccurate and used mostly by soldiers in “Nahkampf” (hand-to-hand combat) situations during trench warfare, where the other guys were about one or two meters away. Or by the Einsatzgruppen during partisan searches in tight quarters like housings. What were the weapons used? Rifle? Machine guns?
13. What happened to the bodies of those 5000 Jews from the trains? Were they ever discovered?
14. Any comments from Breitman, Irving, Gerlach, Browning, Ezergailis, Gilbert on these?
Nothing, Mr. Hebden, nothing?
And please, no arguments like: »The fact that there are no proofs prove that these proofs were removed without leaving a trace «. This is pseudo-scientific nonsense concocted by fellows like Arno Mayer and Michael Shermer.
But don't bother, Mr. Hebden. This thread is really about Babi Jar.