Mass Graves / Serniki

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Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 9 months ago (Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:40 pm)

Here's a new thread to go grave by grave and see what we find.

I've nominated the mass grave at Serniki (Sernyky) in Ukraine as the first one to examine.

I would suggest that everyone first read the presentation by the lead archaeologist who excavated the mass grave at Serniki. His lecture is transcribed here.

If/when we agree that a mass grave was indeed located at Serniki, we can begin discussing what evidence we have for the perpetrators and the victims. That sound OK?

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:24 am)

Before this thread gets under way, it is worthwhile pointing out that few Revisionists dispute that the war on the Eastern front in WW2 was among the bloodiest in history. It is accepted by most that an undefined, but probably quite large, number of killings of civilians took place, and that, given mood of the times, it is likely that Jews would have formed a disproportionately large number of the victims. Such murders of civilians, are, unfortunately all too common a feature of counter-guerilla warfare, which Western powers have also perpetrated, in, for example, Algeria and Vietnam. They may be simply random brutality, or, more likely, reprisalsfor partisan activity and for civilian cooperation with partisans. (The poor civilians, of course, would have had no choice in the matter of cooperation.)

It is interesting, and historically valuable to pursue investigations of this kind, but they will tell us little abot the validity of the Holocaust allegations.

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby SevenUp » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:20 am)

Mass Grave Survivor wrote:Here's a new thread to go grave by grave and see what we find.

I've nominated the mass grave at Serniki (Sernyky) in Ukraine as the first one to examine.

I would suggest that everyone first read the presentation by the lead archaeologist who excavated the mass grave at Serniki. His lecture is transcribed here.

If/when we agree that a mass grave was indeed located at Serniki, we can begin discussing what evidence we have for the perpetrators and the victims. That sound OK?


What have you got other than Wright's brief summary?

I found this picture ....

Image

of the mass grave, and it looks a little suspect, at this site ...

http://www.sydneyjewishmuseum.com.au/Collection/Rubber-Boot/default.aspx

This site does give some context for the alleged massacre (I'll go with alleged until there is a little more evidence on the table), that the Nazis were in the process of killing all the Jews in the area. However that doesn't match with the claim that there were 1500 Jews in Serniki and there were 550/850 bodies in the mass grave. Also, there is nothing at all presented to show that the bodies were Jews, no attempted identifications, etc.

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby Clem » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:01 am)

They were forced to lie face down on the floor of the pit, while marksmen at the edge of the pit targeted the heads of the victims. Other victims were clubbed to death.


http://www.sydneyjewishmuseum.com.au/Co ... fault.aspx


I see no skulls with bullet holes or evidence of blunt force trauma.

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby Clem » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:12 am)

The soil looks just like what is described at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka.

If they can do this at Serniki (Sernyky) in the Ukraine, then why are they so afraid to do the same thing at the above mentioned transit camp sites in Poland?

Oh, now I remember why; a mass grave has to actually EXIST in order for it to be excavated.

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby Mkk » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:15 am)

Listen to this storyline from Richard Wright:
An awful scene had unfolded. As the eyewitnesses had said, they
were mostly women and children. The men were old men. They had been
herded down a ramp into the grave. One lot had gone to the left and been
shot while lying down within the grave; the others had gone to the right.
The majority had entry and exit wounds of bullets in their skulls. Some
of them had been clubbed.

:lol: The storyline is already questionable.

Anyway, Wright's claims are exactly that: claims. Is that the only photo? I'd like to see some photos of the bullets used, which were allegedly German. I'd like to see some other photos of the other alleged graves. I'd like to see photos of the entrance holes for the bullets.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:55 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:It is interesting, and historically valuable to pursue investigations of this kind, but they will tell us little abot the validity of the Holocaust allegations.


I think not. Were the Jews in these graves largely there due to anti-partisan activity, there are two things you'd see that you don't. First, a predominance of able-bodied men in the grave. Second, German casulaties due to partisan activity. You don't see either in these cases.

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:58 pm)

SevenUp wrote:What have you got other than Wright's brief summary?


Two more pieces by Wright. When I find stable links, I'll provide them.

I found this picture ....

Image

of the mass grave, and it looks a little suspect, at this site ...

http://www.sydneyjewishmuseum.com.au/Collection/Rubber-Boot/default.aspx


I don't see what's suspect about it. It appears to be a mass grave. Do we accept a mass grave was found at Serniki?

This site does give some context for the alleged massacre (I'll go with alleged until there is a little more evidence on the table), that the Nazis were in the process of killing all the Jews in the area. However that doesn't match with the claim that there were 1500 Jews in Serniki and there were 550/850 bodies in the mass grave.


Why not?

Also, there is nothing at all presented to show that the bodies were Jews, no attempted identifications, etc.[/quote]

All in time. First, I'd like a consensus on whether we can agree that there was a mass grave found at Serniki.

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:00 pm)

Mkk wrote:Listen to this storyline from Richard Wright:
An awful scene had unfolded. As the eyewitnesses had said, they
were mostly women and children. The men were old men. They had been
herded down a ramp into the grave. One lot had gone to the left and been
shot while lying down within the grave; the others had gone to the right.
The majority had entry and exit wounds of bullets in their skulls. Some
of them had been clubbed.

:lol: The storyline is already questionable.


Why? I don't see what's questionable or funny about it.

Anyway, Wright's claims are exactly that: claims. Is that the only photo? I'd like to see some photos of the bullets used, which were allegedly German. I'd like to see some other photos of the other alleged graves. I'd like to see photos of the entrance holes for the bullets.


Working on it.

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:52 pm)

Wright's full analysis of the grave at Serniki is avaiable, from what I can tell, in full in two places, neither of which are available in full online. First is his chapter in the book Forensic Archaeology: Advances in Theory and Practice. This book is available in preview format at Google Books and at Amazon, although there are probably several pages there that cannot be accessed for free. The second is in the transcripts for the war crimes case in Australia against Ivan Polyukhovich, for which the investigation at Serniki was carried out in the first place. I'm unable to find those transcripts, although two books on the case (David Bevan's and David Fraser's) are, again, online at Google Book and at Amazon in parts.

Once the revisionists have reviewed the evidence available, can we get a consensus on whether this mass grave in Serniki truly exists?

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby SevenUp » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:37 pm)

Here is another version of the mass grave at Serniki....

Image

The first photo appeared to be colorized at a minimum, and I wondered what would be the point of that. The point would be that since the excavation was relatively recent, in the 1990's I think, we would expect to see color photos. So it seems clear that the Sydney Jewish Museum is publishing known false information about the alleged massacre, mass grave, and excavation.

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:48 pm)

First of all,it's not the same picture. THe color picture lacks the man in the foreground. Here, however, are two other possibilities other than the picture being colorized. One is that the picture was reproduced in black and white in a different publication, rather than colorized. Two is that the pictures were taken with different cameras and different film.

I'm better it's the former case.

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Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Hannover » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:34 pm)

This is it?
This is supposed to be proof of a 'holocaust' mass grave? It is truly laughable.
Frankly, IMO, the pictures look a bit odd to me, look like cut & paste jobs, notice the edges.
For what would be a really big deal for the Jewish supremacists all we see are two questionable pictures.

Allowing for moment that the site is real, we are left with a veritable grocery list of problems:

No step by step photos of the excavation in progress.
No proof of the actual location.
No proof that these are Jews.
And 'eyewitnesses"? The Germans supposedly acted in secrecy, yet they would commit a massive war crime and allow 'eyewitnesses'. Right.
Bullet holes anyone?
No proof that it was a German activity
No proof that the communists are not responsible; there are verifiable mass graves attributed to them all over Europe. Carolyn Yeager's link highlights this well.
The text posted is nothing more than rambling 'holy cow, gee wiz' stuff. There is no scientific verification of anything. It's just an EMAIL to a 'Holocaust' List, talk about self serving. AN EMAIL!
Notice the man's title:
Darren O'Brien
Assistant to the Director
Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies
School of History, Philosophy and Politics
Macquarie University NSW 2109
Australia

What would you expect from such a devotee of alleged 'genocides'. For anyone else this amounts to what's called a conflict of interests. The empty claims are in his and the lists members' interest, he & they make money from so called 'genocide studies'. They are not neutral in the slightest. The more they elevate what's in their interest, the more the funding keeps rolling in. Nice little scam they have going. Who dares to oppose funding for 'genocide studies'. Who dares oppose anyone which such a title attached to their name?
If this site was as advertised we would be seeing non-stop data, endless photos, various archeologists examining and confirming what this guy alleges.
We would be seeing major publications for peer review and public consumption.

I refer everyone to a real excavation of a mass grave, Katyn forest. Excavated by the Germans using real science, verifiable, outside observers, endless data, on & on. See: 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn':
http://www.codoh.com/documents/Katyn_V.pdf

Is this the best 'holocaust' site there is out there? Is this the best they can do?
Isn't there more than two curious looking photos?

- Hannover
Last edited by Hannover on Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Mass Graves

Postby SevenUp » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:43 pm)

Mass Grave Survivor wrote:Wright's full analysis of the grave at Serniki is avaiable, from what I can tell, in full in two places, neither of which are available in full online. First is his chapter in the book Forensic Archaeology: Advances in Theory and Practice. This book is available in preview format at Google Books and at Amazon, although there are probably several pages there that cannot be accessed for free. The second is in the transcripts for the war crimes case in Australia against Ivan Polyukhovich, for which the investigation at Serniki was carried out in the first place. I'm unable to find those transcripts, although two books on the case (David Bevan's and David Fraser's) are, again, online at Google Book and at Amazon in parts.

Once the revisionists have reviewed the evidence available, can we get a consensus on whether this mass grave in Serniki truly exists?


I'm ready to review it, but you have not presented it. I read Wright's brief summary which was without any data, pictures, or anything else that constitutes evidence. I scanned the chapter in the Forensic Archaeology: Advances in Theory and Practice by Wright, minus the missing pages, which had no data or pictures of Seriniki. I scanned Bevan book on the trial and look at the pictues shown on google books. No data, no pics. And I scanned just a bit of Fraser's book before giving up. It sounds like some really unlucky people, not even Nazis, got rounded up for these belated war trials.

Given the significance of the only excavated mass grave of holohoax victims, I'd expect to see the full report or an extensive synopsis, along with numerous accompanying pictures, as a minimum. So, if you want us to review the evidence, you have to present it.

The photo looks suspect to me for several reasons, first, the colors don't look natural to me, it looks colorized. I could be wrong. And again the line between the soil and the bodies appears to me to be way to clear with no soil or anything the color of soil where the bodies are, and nothing resembling the contents of the grave on the soil side.

So, I'd say you've got a long way to go. Is there a mass grave at Serniki? I don't know.

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Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Hannover » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:53 pm)

Wright's full analysis of the grave at Serniki is avaiable, from what I can tell, in full in two places, neither of which are available in full online. First is his chapter in the book Forensic Archaeology: Advances in Theory and Practice. This book is available in preview format at Google Books and at Amazon, although there are probably several pages there that cannot be accessed for free. The second is in the transcripts for the war crimes case in Australia against Ivan Polyukhovich, for which the investigation at Serniki was carried out in the first place. I'm unable to find those transcripts, although two books on the case (David Bevan's and David Fraser's) are, again, online at Google Book and at Amazon in parts.

Once the revisionists have reviewed the evidence available, can we get a consensus on whether this mass grave in Serniki truly exists?

Review what? A chapter in a book available from Amazon. A chapter? Is this serious? As I said, this 'full analysis' should be the latest big deal. Something is more than fishy here. Reminds me of the shyster A. Kola and his absurd and discredited 'core samples'.

And as SevenUp says, show us this "chapter", Mr. Mass Grave Survivor. The onus is on the accuser, that is you.

A Chapter! Available from Amazon. There you have it then.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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