Belzec

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Guptalicious
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Belzec

Postby Guptalicious » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:35 pm)

In seeking out some material I found a few month old thread about Belzec, and since I also read some of this material recently, I will comment thereon.

It is known that somewhere between 400 thousand and 600 thousand are supposed to have been killed at this camp.

The core samples -- if one chooses to accept them -- were spaced every 5 meters throughout the camp area.

These core samples indicated three kinds of things:

Undisturbed strata
Disturbed strata, presence of human remains
Disturbed strata, no presence of human remains

The disturbed areas containing human remains consisted of 33 sites that were defined as graves. These measure from 65 m x 30 m, in an "S" shape with a depth of remains to 3 m (probably an antitank ditch), down to 3 m x 3 m site to a depth a 1.5 m (clearly this one was no grave, although there were some ashes in it.) The rest of the graves fall within these limits. Yes, there is a contradiction between the claimed methodology (every 5 meters) and the above mentioned grave.

There are three types of gravesites, if we use that term

8 large deep graves - these average 400-500 sq m, but include also the "S" shaped one cited above. These total about 5500 sq m, or about 5/8 of the total grave area. Most of these are from 3.5 to 5 m in depth. In the bottom of (apparently) all of these, grave waxed corpses are found, covered by ash, burned wood, etc. Estimates for these graves would run about 50 thousand or less.

20 medium sized graves - these average about 50 sq m, to depth of 3 to 4 m which total about 10000 sq m. All of these contain ash, wood, bone, etc. but apparently no intact bodies. Estimates for these graves would run about 10 thousand or less.

5 small graves - these are not really graves because they are much too small and shallow. They are areas that indicate soil disturbance and human remains in terms of ash, bits of bone, etc.

The other disturbed areas in the camp are the sites of various camp buildings, there are no human remains here, nor traces thereof, and no one is claiming human burials here. There are no concrete foundations, which contradicts the only eyewitnesses for this camp, since as we all know the gas chamber building was a concrete structure with flower pots and Heckenholt Foundation signs, and so on.

The rest of the soil, again, is undisturbed.

From the above it is clear that the the only possible burial sites originally in the history of the camp would have had to coincide with the disturbed areas containing human remains. This area totals about 6000 sq m. Using a 10 body per cm measure (the simplest), we derive a total of 60000 original burials in this camp, but that number could be raised or lowered, depending on what one wants to argue. It could however not be raised or lowered by an order of magnitude, that is, down to 6000 or up to 600000.

The remains also indicate that in fact in the larger deeper pits body disposal consisted of top down burnings of the bodies, probably to control the health hazards. Such a burning, like the non-existence of any buildings of concrete foundation, also contradicts the eyewitnesses.

The medium sized graves are individually rather small, and could have contained originally 500 to 1000 cadavers to only a medium depth. Consequently, these may not be original graves at all, but rather burning pits later used for body disposal, inasmuch as arrivals to Belzec were usually supposed to be far in excess of 500 or 1000. On the other hand, because they are more shallow, it is possible that these really were the original graves for some percentage of the shipments of persons who were sent to the camp.

In fine there are significant human remains at Belzec in the tens of thousands, if one assumes the veracity of the Kola report. Remains in the hundreds of thousands are not only not conceivable they are not possible. Therefore hundreds of thousands of persons alleged to have died at Belzec did not die there.

Where did they go?

Probably to work camps or holding camps or ghettos in the east. Information about this could be obtained by following the paper trail connected to road building (Browning referenced a piece of this) or the organization of the GG (the Foehl telegram), the economic programs associated with Reinhardt (Osti), Organization Todt (known to have used Jewish labor), the SS as it pertained to administering eastern ghettos, the Reichkommissariats Ostland and Ukraine, the files pertaining to individual Russian cities now known to be archived at the USHHM (e.g., Grodno and Riga), the Zamosc resettlements, the tried and disbanded Lublinland reservation for Jews, camps as Janow and many other locations, as well as the Eastern Army Groups, the Ordnungspolizei, the Dirlewanger brigade, Bach Zelewski's command, and so on.

Little work has been done on any of these categories, the military or quasi military categories have centered mostly on military or anti-partisan operations, with apparently not much thought to the possibility of double counting (i.e., Jewish prisoners shot at Minsk who are also counted as gassed elsewhere) and of the non-military categories I know of no comprehensive treatments. This needs to be done.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:02 pm)

The assertions about Belzec are absolutely unsustainable.

Kola's study is a sham, plain and simple. Quoting sections of it do nothing to verify or substantiate it.

See Tom Moran blast Kola from the water:

http://tmoran.yourforum.org/archive/index.html

more on Belzec here; Kola etc. is old news handled easily by Revisionists:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=30

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=85

Guptalicious then tries to slide this in:
Little work has been done on any of these categories, the military or quasi military categories have centered mostly on military or anti-partisan operations, with apparently not much thought to the possibility of double counting (i.e., Jewish prisoners shot at Minsk who are also counted as gassed elsewhere) ....


Perhaps he could provide something to support his assertion of "Jewish prisoners shot at Minsk"... How many? Exactly where? What evidence?... etc.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:38 pm)

I do not own a copy of Kola's book. Based on Morgan's summary I do have a question concerning the wax-fat which Kola found:

According to the accepted Belzec story as well as the findings of the German courts in Munich in 1965, all bodies were first buried, then disinterred and then cremated on open pyres. And the whole mess was then backfilled into the pits.

Then why the solidified fat in the pits? The fat should all have burned off during the cremation process. They must have done a sloppy job again, those SS guys.

And I also always thought, that when I go, that the worms will consume my body, fat and all. If not, there must be a lot of solidified human fat buried in our local cemetery here.

Where am I wrong?

fge

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Postby Guptalicious » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:05 pm)

The presence of grave wax at the bottom of a pit does not indicate that all the bodies were burned, it indicates a burn from the top of the pile down that eventually put itself out.

Mass graves are different than ordinary graves. Piling a large number of bodies in a pit -- as the Germans showed at Katyn -- preserves the interior bodies very well. Eventually, in such an environment, all the body tissues will turn to a waxy fat. In fact, one of the ways the Germans were able to date the Katyn bodies was by the rate at which the brains of the Polish officers turned into grave wax.

There are other conditions where this conversion takes place, as for example, with avalanche victims.

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Postby Guptalicious » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:06 pm)

I wanted to add that there would appear to be no theoretical limit to how long a body will be preserved in such an environment.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:40 pm)

But the absurd Belzec story states that the exhumed bodies were cremated above ground on grill-like pyres.

Remember, the alleged reason for the exhumation / cremation was to eliminate evidence, not leave it behind.

Sorry, your story doesn't fly.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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