Einsatzgruppen / Critique

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Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:00 pm)

Here we go.

I'm going to be quoting from the section of the critique found here.

Rather than waste time and space by quoting at length from the critique, I'm picking up in the paragraph beginning "MGK’s three main responses to the mass shootings in the USSR..."

Here, the critique authors cite as a specific example Graf, arguing that the manpower did not exist in the Einsatzgruppen to kill the number of Jews killed:

The claimed numbers of victims of the Einsatzgruppen are impossibly large. The largest of the four, Einsatzgruppe A, had 990 members. If we subtract from this the 172 vehicle drivers, 3 women employees, 51 interpreters, 3 teletypewriter operators and 8 radio operators, there are about 750 combatants left to use for the mass killings (p. 303; DEJ, p. 289). Up to 15th October 1941, Einsatzgruppe A supposedly killed 125,000 Jews (p. 309; DEJ, p. 289). Considering the fact that the mass murders first began in August (p. 307; DEJ, na), the overwhelming majority of the 125,000 victims, let us say 120,000, must have been killed in a period of ten weeks.[76]


"DEJ" in Graf refers to Hilberg's Destruction of the European Jews. The citation from Graf is from The Giant With Feet of Clay, p. 40.

Next, the critique points out that Graf, again relying on Hilberg, cites native Baltic killings of Jewish populations following the German invasion:

In addition, thousands of Jews were killed in pogroms initiated by the native populations following the German invasion. After they had been freed from the Bolshevist yoke, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians and others took revenge on Jews because the Red terror machinery had been led mainly by Jews, and this retribution unfortunately fell also on Jews who had nothing to do with the Communist crimes.[80]


This is four pages earlier in Graf, p. 36.

But when Graf gets to discussing actual killings, he seems to forget collaboration by Baltic populations. To wit, he makes the point that Einsatzkommando 2 allegedly killed the Jews of Riga having only 21 men in it (p. 38). He leaves out that Hilberg very clearly says that they were aided by "a Latvian Sonderkommando of more than 100 men (eventually two companies of three platoons each) (p. 299 in Hilberg, footnote 16).

In conclusion, Graf quote mined.

That's presentation #1. Any questions?

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:54 pm)

This topic is so yesterday that it is boring, but nonetheless:

A classic case of wild Jewish supremacist assertions with nothing to prove it. It's the tired and discredited 'Holocaust by Bullets' smoke & mirrors.

1. There are no mass graves that have been excavated that can be verified, shown, and can be attributed to the Einsatzgruppen. Not a single one.

2, So what if there were other 'auxillary' police forces assisting the Germans against the communists? That is hardly proof of the "Holocaust by Bullets'.

3. There is no doubt that the Einsatzgruppen and other auxillaries shot criminals and terrorist partisans, all very legal under international law of the time. Non-uniformed combatants also were legally subject to execution. Jews were certainly involved in these illegal terrorist activities. So yes, some Jews were legally executed, as were some Christians, atheists, etc. Holocaust not.

In addition, thousands of Jews were killed in pogroms initiated by the native populations following the German invasion. After they had been freed from the Bolshevist yoke, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians and others took revenge on Jews because the Red terror machinery had been led mainly by Jews, and this retribution unfortunately fell also on Jews who had nothing to do with the Communist crimes.[80]

Thousands? No proof for that, but it is likely that revenge minded locals had reasons for executing those who murdered their family members & countrymen. Were a few innocent Jews caught up in this, well as in all wars by all sides, 'collateral damage' happens. Holocaust not.

... Hilberg very clearly says that they were aided by "a Latvian Sonderkommando of more than 100 men (eventually two companies of three platoons each) (p. 299 in Hilberg, footnote 16).

So What? That is not proof that they engaged in rampant shooting of Jews. Holocaust not.

Quote mined? Mined for what? There is nothing to prove claims that ca 2,000,000 Jews were shot into enormous pits, of which not a single one can be shown.

For more on shyster Hilberg, see:
'fraudulent historian Hilberg exposed in court'
viewtopic.php?t=100
and:
''holocaust historian' Hilberg dissected'
viewtopic.php?t=312
also see:
Father Patrick Desbois' "Holocaust by Bullets" debunked
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5410&p=48723

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:10 pm)

Hannover wrote:A classic case of wild Jewish supremacist assertions with nothing to prove it. It's the tired and discredited 'Holocaust by Bullets' smoke & mirrors.


None of the authors of the critique is Jewish.

1. There are no mass graves that have been excavated that can be verified, shown, and can be attributed to the Einsatzgruppen. Not a single one.


Untrue, and I intend to demonstrate this at the Serniki thread. Please be aware that your refusal to accept evidence is not equivalent to evidence not existing.

2, So what if there were other 'auxillary' police forces assisting the Germans against the communists? That is hardly proof of the "Holocaust by Bullets'.


Small children can hardly be communists. I know that it's a popular gambit to claim the Einsatzgruppen were deployed against communists, but when their OSRs clearly list Jewish men, women, and children in a separate category from communists or partisans, it's clear they were killed for being Jews.

Nor do I intend to prove all Einsatzgruppen murders here. To even try would be ludicrous.

3. There is no doubt that the Einsatzgruppen and other auxillaries shot criminals and terrorist partisans, all very legal under international law of the time.


There is some debate regarding whether that is actually true. Certainly, there is NOTHING in international law to suggest shooting anyone without a trial is "very legal." All of the major conventions of the time are availble online, so you could certaily correct me were I wrong.

Non-uniformed combatants also were legally subject to execution. Jews were certainly involved in these illegal terrorist activities. So yes, some Jews were legally executed, as were some Christians, atheists, etc. Holocaust not.


But see above on the determination of Jews as a different category in OSRs.

In addition, thousands of Jews were killed in pogroms initiated by the native populations following the German invasion. After they had been freed from the Bolshevist yoke, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians and others took revenge on Jews because the Red terror machinery had been led mainly by Jews, and this retribution unfortunately fell also on Jews who had nothing to do with the Communist crimes.[80]


Thousands?


Take it up with Graf. That's his quote.

No proof for that, but it is likely that revenge minded locals had reasons for executing those who murdered their family members & countrymen. Were a few innocent Jews caught up in this, well as in all wars by all sides, 'collateral damage' happens. Holocaust not.


Again, chldren can't be political enemies or terrorists.

... Hilberg very clearly says that they were aided by "a Latvian Sonderkommando of more than 100 men (eventually two companies of three platoons each) (p. 299 in Hilberg, footnote 16).

So What? That is not proof that they engaged in rampant shooting of Jews. Holocaust not.


I didn't claim it was. This thread is about the prevarications and lies of MGK — not proving the Einsatzgruppen.

Quote mined? Mined for what?


Graf clearly omitted vital information in citing Hilberg. That's called "quote-mining."

There is nothing to prove claims that ca 2,000,000 Jews were shot into enormous pits, of which not a single one can be shown.


See the Serniki thread, where I intend to prove this.

For more on shyster Hilberg, see:
'fraudulent historian Hilberg exposed in court'
viewtopic.php?t=100
and:
''holocaust historian' Hilberg dissected'
viewtopic.php?t=312
also see:
Father Patrick Desbois' "Holocaust by Bullets" debunked
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5410&p=48723

- Hannover


Is there some reason you're allowed to post links and I'm not?

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:16 pm)

This piece from J. Bishop is a nice overview of the absurd claims made about the Einsatzgruppen. It's revealing that German Field Marshal Erich von Mannstein, who commanded much of the Einsatzgruppen, whose purpose was to cover the backs of the German army by fighting illegal terrorist partisans, was acquitted in a case where the alleged 'documents' about the alleged numbers supposedly killed were proven to be unreliable.

- Hannover

excerpt:
Of related interest is the issue of actual Einsatzgruppen after-action reports transmitted from the field to headquarters in Berlin. Many of these reports claimed whole regions to be 'cleansed' of Jews, i.e. which had become 'Judenfrei' (Jew-free) thanks to Einsatzgruppen actions. But a little known postwar trial, that of German Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, belied the accuracy of said reports. The Soviets were angry at von Manstein because of his many victories over the Red Army during the war and wanted him executed. They tried to claim that huge numbers of Jews were murdered in the rear areas by Einsatzgruppen under his overall command and that he was thus responsible. However, his British lawyer R. T. Paget demonstrated that whole areas supposedly cleared of Jews contained many flourishing Jewish communities that were actually fully functional and untouched throughout the entire war. Clearly the reports in this one area at least, were false or at least greatly exaggerated. The court looked closely at this and accepted the unreliability factor of Einsatzgruppen reports and von Manstein was acquitted.

full text:
The Einsatzgruppen and the Holocaust
Joseph Bishop

The history of the Holocaust, within the larger context of the Second World War has the unusual and unique facility of periodically transforming itself, albeit in a manner which serves perceived Jewish collective interests. This is important because the Holocaust is unlike any other conflict, war, event, or cause in history in that it remains deeply rooted in the public consciousness. In an American context and very broadly summarized, it has taken the following forms:

Soon after 1945, the received version was that the Nazis had murdered around eleven million people - six million Jews, and about five million Poles. Others too were identified as victims, but those were the two most significant victim categories. It was said that these eleven million people were dispatched mainly by mass gassings. Such gassings occurred, as the story went in all the Nazi concentration camps. Auschwitz - actually a constellation of camps but collectively perceived as one large one - stood out as the main site of these gassings.

Within a couple of decades, the story shifted a bit. The salient feature of the gas chamber as the prime murder weapon remained, but it was now confined to 'eastern' camps as opposed to those of the 'west'. This is partly related to the Cold War period in which the Soviets and their minions controlled areas in which those eastern camps - being under Soviet control and continued occupation - were not open to inspection and research. Auschwitz - being in Poland - remained the main site and had by now become the centerpiece of the Holocaust legend in books, films, plays, and popular consciousness.

As time passed and with the loosening of travel restrictions and communistic rigidity, the former concentration camps evolved some tourist trappings. People could travel to them - both west and east, tour their museums, and be guided through their facilities, both original and in postwar mockup. They could ask questions and ponder the significance of their surroundings. A small but determined sub-category of visitor known as 'revisionist' also inspected some of these camps, particularly Auschwitz, and even took forensic samples of the original structures which supposedly served as gassing facilities. The resultantly published work of Fred Leuchter, Germar Rudolf, and others, demonstrated that the chemical residues analyzed from these facilities were not consistent with the official account. Or put another way, the alleged mass gassings almost certainly did not take place. In consequence, the process of historical revisionism dictated that the numbers be dramatically reduced. A wide variety of other objections, not just the chemical residues of Zyklon B, necessitated the change in number, but at least the change did occur.

The authorities maintaining the Auschwitz camp indeed ultimately responded by revising the numbers downward. Suddenly the four million murdered dropped to an official figure of a little over a million. This is where the overall Holocaust story underwent another major evolution. In this latest twist, the Six Million figure somehow was retained - relating to a sort of mystic symbolism that seemingly has to be retained at all costs - and a shifting of how the figure was arrived at occurred. Suddenly the 3 million Jews killed within that 6 million figure, perished 'in the east' with little explanation and no statistical backing. While the Einsatzgruppen or ‘action groups’ (or ‘squads’) has grown in its significance the typical estimate of victims of these groups are between 1.3 and 2.2 million. As the story continues to shift and evolve it appears that the missing “victims” may yet be attributed to the Einsatzgruppen or even the German army.

Field Marshal Erich von Manstein
Image

German Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, belied the accuracy of the Einsatzgruppen reports. Photo: 1938. Source: Deutsches Bundesarchiv (German Federal Archive), Bild 183-H01758. Wikimedia Commons: Bundesarchiv Commons.

Not a lot of detail was given at first, but the vague form of this newly revised Holocaust story was that these SS men herded Jews together at various locales and there shot them. Some were allegedly killed in 'gas vans' or via other means, but the majority were shot or machine-gunned. This is of great interest to revisionists. Hitherto revisionist researchers had focused their attention primarily on gas chambers, Zyklon B, cremation rates, open pit burnings, high water tables, coke deliveries, death records, and similar, chipping and gouging away at court sanctioned history. But the Einsatzgruppen idea was something relatively new. Only limited revisionist research has been done on this subject.

I would like to pose a number of questions which could serve as excellent starting points relevant to the revisionist process and then try to briefly respond to them. Firstly, what were the actual responsibilities of the Einsatzgruppen? Their main task was maintaining order and security within the rear areas of the German armies on the eastern front. This included the gathering of intelligence and especially the combating and repression of partisans. With this new twist in the Holocaust story, they were also somehow additionally tasked with the total extermination of Jews. Not just the Jews of all the areas they were responsible for - Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, Ukraine, the Crimea, areas of the Caucasus, and occupied Russia - but also Jews from Germany and western Europe which were allegedly shipped off to them for liquidation.

Now let it be clearly known here that geographically we are talking about an enormous physical area not dissimilar to the size of the continental United States. How many personnel were engaged in this multiplicity of tasks? The Einsatzgruppen consisted of four main groups - A, B, C, and D - each comprising between 300 and 500 men. These 2,000 (generously estimated) men were allegedly entrusted with the enormity of these tasks. But how many were actually on duty at any given time, not engaged in intelligence gathering, anti-partisan activity, etc., and specifically engaged in killings? Bearing in mind support personnel - radiomen, supply and transport, administrative, men on leave, men sick, men back home on training courses, etc. - the 2,000 number shrinks. However, even if all 2,000 were active and available for action at all times, the main responsibility of the Einsatzgruppen was anti-partisan activity so how on earth did they get the time to find, marshal together, and kill millions of Jews?

At this point I must add into the equation the fact that other echelons of personnel assisted or worked with the Einsatzgruppen. These included Police battalions, 'Schuma' (Schutzmannshaft, i.e. self-defense) companies of Ukrainians, Latvians et al, even sometimes Wehrmacht security divisions or elements thereof. However, these forces were mostly used to cordon off areas and provide security for the alleged killing units, i.e. when they were not themselves engaged in anti-partisan actions which was their prime activity too. Still, the task is enormous, indeed very problematic, if not impossible.

What about transportation? The actual fighting armies at the front always had priority in receiving vehicles, fuel, and supply. Vehicles in particular were always hard to come by. What little was left for the Einsatzgruppen had to suffice for the transportation of these tiny bands of men to traverse huge distances to carry out their tasks. To get a handle on these problems, consider a comparative provided some years ago by revisionists: The LAPD has perhaps 10,000 officers, all plentifully supplied with modern, fast vehicles, and they have a single task to control crime and in one very small area, yet even they have great difficulty and much of the time crime is out of control. How on earth can 2,000 men accomplish this task and many and more important tasks in an area about the size of the USA and in which much of their transport is horse-drawn or nonexistent?

How many Jews were actually available to be killed, i.e. how many fell into the hands of the Einsatzgruppen? Revisionist researcher Dr. Walter Sanning in his path-breaking The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry demonstrated that the six million figure was impossible, that literally millions of European Jews had escaped the Nazis through legal emigration and through evacuation eastwards with the Red Army as it retreated before the invading German forces. We may never know how many 'Eastern' Jews escaped this way but the numbers are generally agreed upon to figure in the millions. The Germans simply did not have anywhere near the numbers of Jews in their control that the official Holocaust story presumes.

What was the time frame of the killings? From June 1941 through summer 1944, about three years, in much of which whole regions were not in Nazi hands or had been lost. How many Jews could have been killed and how quickly? Rhodes in his Masters of Death, a study of the Einsatzgruppen, claims that these squads usually employed small groups of 4-8 men working in shifts with rifles or pistols and killing thousands or tens of thousands of Jews at a time. Interestingly, he estimates a grand total of about 1.5 million Jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen. Rhodes also suggests that the Einsatzgruppen were so overwhelmed psychologically from allegedly killing 1.5 million Jews that SS-Reichsführer Himmler ultimately decided to shift responsibility for the extermination of the Jews, from squad killings to a more 'industrial' and efficient approach using gas chambers at Auschwitz and elsewhere. Rhodes is one of those court historians who, when it comes to the official version of the Holocaust, accepts all 'eyewitness' accounts, evinces no skepticism whatever, allows all possibilities, asks no inconvenient questions, and breaks no taboos.

Another author not up to speed with the numbers was French MacLean, whose The Cruel Hunters - the 'definitive' study of the famous SS Dirlewanger Brigade - an 'Einsatz' unit allegedly much involved in mass killings of Jews and often working closely with the Einsatzgruppen, estimates a killing total of about 1.3 million which he cites as a sort of consensus of historians on how many Jews were killed in the east. These numbers of course do not explain the missing millions from Auschwitz. MacLean incidentally makes clear that all these units were so overwhelmed with their responsibility for combating partisans that they had little time for anything else.

Oskar Dirlewanger's unit is worthy of close attention because it was well known to be enormously successful in its operations on the eastern front. At most times it had between 300 and 500 men, i.e. it was about the size of an Einsatzgruppe. Dirlewanger and his men won countless medals, decorations, citations, and all manner of bravery awards. They were victorious in nearly every operation and action, moved quickly, and were very highly motivated and disciplined. High ranking SS leaders and Himmler himself respected and feted them. Even Hitler watched their doings and wanted them given every possible assistance. Yet in spite of it all, they were credited with killing 'only' some 15,000 people during their years in action as an Einsatz unit. If the other Einsatz units were as successful, the numbers become relatively paltry when squared against claimed figures of 1.3 or 1.5 million, let alone 3 million.

Rhodes suggests that the SS were often drunk and disorderly and typically engaged in rape, looting, and indiscriminate murder. The author relied heavily on 'survivor' eyewitness accounts. MacLean demonstrates that such units actually were much more disciplined and severely punished men for even minor infractions. He even cites one instance where an SS solder was denied leave for six months for his contracting a venereal disease after not using a condom whilst on R & R. MacLean mostly relies on SS efficiency reports and internal memoranda and documentation, none of which was intended for publication or general information. His work is important in that the Dirlewanger Brigade was thought to be fairly typical of the SS's eastern killing groups. He shows how it was structured and its limitations and varied, heavy responsibilities.

Of related interest is the issue of actual Einsatzgruppen after-action reports transmitted from the field to headquarters in Berlin. Many of these reports claimed whole regions to be 'cleansed' of Jews, i.e. which had become 'Judenfrei' (Jew-free) thanks to Einsatzgruppen actions. But a little known postwar trial, that of German Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, belied the accuracy of said reports. The Soviets were angry at von Manstein because of his many victories over the Red Army during the war and wanted him executed. They tried to claim that huge numbers of Jews were murdered in the rear areas by Einsatzgruppen under his overall command and that he was thus responsible. However, his British lawyer R. T. Paget demonstrated that whole areas supposedly cleared of Jews contained many flourishing Jewish communities that were actually fully functional and untouched throughout the entire war. Clearly the reports in this one area at least, were false or at least greatly exaggerated. The court looked closely at this and accepted the unreliability factor of Einsatzgruppen reports and von Manstein was acquitted. This issue of false reports being filed could be explainable via certain speculations, but more research is needed. Manstein himself did not reference the Einsatzgruppen or even Jews at all in his published memoirs.

The actual Einsatzgruppen reports were also radioed to the SSHA (SS main headquarters office) in Berlin. British intelligence, monitoring such transmissions and having broken the German codes, received the reports but did not make much use of them during the war. Why not? Surely such information, if as damning to Germany as one might assume, would be priceless in the propaganda war. This is another area worth further study.

Colin Heaton's masterly study of German anti-partisan operations in Europe makes clear that all rear-echelon units including SS, were overwhelmingly employed in anti-partisan duties. It is clear that even though the SS made a clear distinction between Jews as supporters of the Soviet regime, and ordinary Russians, Ukrainians, and others who were more often victims of that regime, anti-partisan warfare always had to take priority as rearward security was a prerequisite for any other type of operation.

Recent pseudo-historical documentaries make much of the Einsatzgruppen and pose astonishing claims about the Einsatzgruppen. An Einsatzgruppen officer named Paul Blobel, for example, was allegedly tasked to uncover and obliterate all remains and evidence of killed Jews. This allegedly entailed unearthing mass graves and immolating their contents, grinding bones into powder and carefully dispersing same throughout forests, re-covering the killing sites and planting trees over them, etc. And again, this over a huge geographical area and within a limited time span and with a small number of vehicles and men.

Frankly, claims such as these are not just unbelievable, but impossible. I have no doubt that the Einsatzgruppen did kill large numbers of Jews, at least partly in consequence of their anti-partisan actions, as many Jews were known to be partisans or supportive to them, and many others engaged in sabotage and espionage. Also a large number of Red Army commissars were Jews and Jews collectively were broadly known to be supporters or functionaries of the Soviet communist system. But Jews could not have been killed in the millions and probably not in many hundreds of thousands. One can only kill so many people with very limited resources over a certain time span in a huge area, and especially when one has vastly more important things to do. I do not doubt that many crimes occurred on both sides under the circumstances of a very brutal war that dragged into years and within the context of warfare being waged without the amelioration of Geneva Convention rules on land warfare, treatment of prisoners, etc. But clearly the numbers, even the possibilities, are outrageously improbable.

A sort of Orwellian process is at play in which 'historians,' unworthy of the title, write their books or give their talks in a way in which they try to stay in sync with the Holocaust story as it continues to evolve or in the way World War Two is portrayed. In a Judeocentric culture, this ensures publication and friendly review of their books, payment of speaking fees, and upward career progression. But sometimes they get behind the curve or are unaware of the latest gymnastic-like twists, turns, and double backward flip-flops that are effected to keep the symbolic figure of Six Million intact.

These 'historians' keep their inquiries limited to the pursuit of the standard story and do not take it into broader moral dimensions. For example, I would like to ask: how is it any different, ethically, morally, etc. for a small group of men to murder hundreds or thousands of people with machine-guns or rifles in a day or two of operations, from a day or two of operations in which a small group of men in bombers destroy neighborhoods, schools, homes, and businesses, of civilians who are about as defenseless? Is one group vicious, sadistic, ideology-driven mass murderers, while the other, a 'band of brothers' fighting for freedom, justice, and other similarly ideologically-driven intangibles? Or are they about the same? Distinctions blur and blacks and whites become shades of gray.

Revisionism has a long way to go, especially in addressing the recent arrival of the so-called “Holocaust by bullets.” Surely much of interest will be uncovered in this grand intellectual adventure still awaiting us.
Sources:

Walter N. Sanning, The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry, Institute for Historical Review, Torrance, 1983.
Richard Rhodes, Masters of Death: The Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2002.
French MacLean, The Cruel Hunters: SS-Sonderkommando Dirlewanger, Hitler's Most Notorious Anti-Partisan Unit, Shiffer Military History, Atglen, 1998.
R.T. Paget, K.C., M.P., Manstein: His Campaigns and His Trial, Collins, St. James Place, London, 1951.
Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, Lost Victories, Henry Regnery Company, Chicago, 1958.
Colin Heaton, German Anti-Partisan Warfare in Europe, 1939-1945, Schiffer Military History, Atglen, 2001.

copyright 2009 by Joseph Bishop

This page URL:
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... ocaust.php
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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:49 pm)

Following your responses:

- Since when isn't Hilberg (now deceased), Lipstadt, on & on not Jewish? They all make the absurd claims about the Einsatzgruppen

- You intend to demonstrate this at the Serniki thread ....Intend? Well, so far nothing.

- There is no evidence that you have produced. I challenge you to produce it.

- "Small children"? Oh please, it's just more propaganda. Give us the proof.

- "it's clear they were killed for being Jews". Right. You have not produced proof. I challenge you to produce it.

- "Nor do I intend to prove all Einsatzgruppen murders here. To even try would be ludicrous." No one said "all", no weasel words. Your problem is that you cannot produce a single excavated, verified mass grave as alleged Oh, I forgot. You INTEND to.

- The onus is upon the accuser, you, to prove that executing non-uniformed combatants was illegal. It was routinely done by the 'Allies'.

- "Take it up with Graf"? No, I'm taking it up with you, the accuser. You do claim that "thousands" of Jews were murdered, right? I suspect you go even higher, so produce the proof.

- You invoked Hilberg and now you run away from him. What's with that. Do you believe Hilberg's story about the Einsatzgruppen or not?

- What did Graf omit? Tell us specifically what it was and why the 'omission' is critical. If you claim certain 'eyewitnesses', then I challenge you to produce their verbatim court testimony with cross examination.

Yes, I posted a lot commentary with links which debunk your discredited sources.

No dodging, MSG.

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:53 pm)

By the way, Manstein did not command Einsatzgruppen. They were under the aegis of the SS, not the Wehrmacht.

Further, Manstein was conviced and got eigthteen years.

But other than that, you're 100% correct!

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:54 pm)

Why was my post about Jos. Bishop deleted?

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Moderator » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:01 pm)

The link did not even open. You provided no commentary about your link which supported your position on the Einsatzgruppen.
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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:10 pm)

Last point to make about the intiial post in this thread, Hannover asks what Graf omitted. I already said what he omitted: He omitted that more than 100 Latvian auxiliaries participated in an action that he claims there were too few people to undertake.

That's highly dishonest, at the very least.

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:16 pm)

Yes, the link was a dud.

It appears that you do not even know the storyline about the Einsatzgruppen, but you defend it anyway.

Manstein was tried for the trumped up charges about the Einsatzgruppen. Deal with it.

Manstein definitely had command over his entire area that his army was operating. And if the Einsatzgruppen were what has been claimed then he certainly would not have been acquitted. Read what's on the internet MSG. Mannstein, the German Army, and the Einsatzgruppen story are linked, falsely so.

And what was Manstein convicted of? Einsatzgruppen activities? Nope.

I'm glad you admit that nonsensical Einsatzgruppen 'reports' are fraudulent, as was shown at his trial. I notice you dodged the content of Bishop's article.

Still waiting for the proof that I challenged you to provide. No dodging.

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 month ago (Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:23 pm)

MSG:
Last point to make about the intiial post in this thread, Hannover asks what Graf omitted. I already said what he omitted: He omitted that more than 100 Latvian auxiliaries participated in an action that he claims there were too few people to undertake.

That's highly dishonest, at the very least.

You provided no proof for the alleged actions of Hilberg's alleged "more than 100 Latvian auxiliaries". Hilberg, BTW, has been shown to be an outrageous liar, see my links provided ... ahem. It's easy to see why Graf ignored the story about them, nothing of any consequence to consider. One could just as well have said '10,000 Finnish Boy Scouts'. Hilberg's just saying something does not make it true.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:57 am)

Mass Grave Survivor wrote:By the way, Manstein did not command Einsatzgruppen. They were under the aegis of the SS, not the Wehrmacht.

Further, Manstein was conviced and got eigthteen years.

But other than that, you're 100% correct!

His Einsatzgruppen trial made a mockery of the tall tales alleged of them. As a fall back effort to save face by the 'Allies', Manstein was convicted for "scorched earth tactics", which in lieu of what the Allies did is simply laughable.
He "got eighteen years"? Wrong again, MSG, Manstein was released after only four years. Curious.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Hannover » 9 years 1 month ago (Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:52 pm)

If the tall tales about the Einsatzgruppen were true there would be no need for faked photos. See:

'Famous Einsatzgruppen photograph'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4247&p=27504

- Hannover
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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Clem » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:32 pm)

For what it's worth, the following 25 people collaborated on this sophomoric critique:

David Woolfe, Mike Curtis, Peter Laponder, Steve Tyas, Jürgen Langowski, Albrecht Kolthoff, Christian Mentel, Harry Mazal, John Zimmerman, David Rich, Andrzej Gawryszewski, Christopher Browning, Martin Dean, Michael Gelb, Antony Polonsky, Andrea Simon, Martin Davidson, Philip Blood, Leonid Tyorushkin, Nick Terry, Jonathan Harrison, Sergey Romanov, Michael Peters Jason Myer and Roberto Muehlenkamp


On a humorous side note, these charlatans are collectively known as "team insanity" over at rodoh.


MGS:

That's highly dishonest, at the very least.


Are you implying that the members of "team insanity" are honest?

Would you be willing to bet me that I cannot find proof of dishonesty by members of "team insanity"?

Yes or No?

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Re: Einsatzgruppen / Critique

Postby Haldan » 9 years 2 weeks ago (Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:48 pm)

Sergey Romanov?

Is this a joke? I guess Christopher Browning took Andy Mathis place. I read their critique and despite being a group large enough to out-do most (if not all) Revisionist endeavours they still have not managed to provide an ounce of evidence for their assertions.
Their critique is transparent. And Muehlenkamp? This person posts pictures of two skulls and a couple of bones which he says belongs to Jewish victims. Alas, a holocaust of the Jews happened. I can understand why Turpitz takes a pause from all of this. These people are not the least bit trustworthy about any detail in this matter and after ten years, without much change, it get's depressing. They continue on & on with their unproven claims.
Roberto Muehlenkamp is the most insincere in this team of charlatans. It's gratifying to see that Andrew E. Mathis appears to have been given the cold shoulder. Whenever these people are ready to submit evidence for their inane assertions I'd be quite happy to believe their (junk)stories. As it is, all they do is engage in diversion. Even their forum has been terribly hi-jacked and totally wrecked by imposters after Nick Terry gave it the Dolchstoß...

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