fake Einsatzgruppen document

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Bergmann
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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:51 pm)

Gertrud wrote:
Radar wrote:In all the backing and forthing about this document we seem to have lost sight of the initial question: is it authentic?

Well, the initial question went beyond that. In the meantime, we were discussing two different documents, one of which is authentic but difficult to interpret.
As to the context of the typewritten document, I'd like to know what's on the missing second page. I've mentioned earlier that the -2- in the lower right corner indicates that another page follows.

The number at the bottom of the page on all books which I own is the number of that page, and not the number of the following page.

Butz claims in his “Hoax”, that the document NO-1128 includes 4 pages with the first page being signed by Himmler. He presumably looked at a facsimile of NO-1128. And he says that the 363,211 executed Russian Jews are listed on page 4.

He also mentions that German documents with a "gez." signature at the end is usually a typed and not a manually signed document.

The Reproduction of NO-1128 in the NMT XIII protocol is only a partial transcription/translation with Himmler's signature typed at the end.

I find this whole thing rather confusing and without a facsimile of the complete document I have to put its importance aside for now.

The other problem I have is, if the document were correct, the German soldiers of the Wehrmacht must have killed every Russian Jew in sight.

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Postby Gertrud » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:14 pm)

Bergmann wrote:The number at the bottom of the page on all books which I own is the number of that page, and not the number of the following page.

Butz claims in his “Hoax”, that the document NO-1128 includes 4 pages with the first page being signed by Himmler. He presumably looked at a facsimile of NO-1128. And he says that the 363,211 executed Russian Jews are listed on page 4.

He also mentions that German documents with a "gez." signature at the end is usually a typed and not a manually signed document.

The document in question is not a book, you see. It's a typewritten German document which were routinely numbered at the top of the page, whereas a number at the lower right hand is the equivalent of "pto".
Butz must be referring to the handwritten number.
"gez." is mainly used in copies of documents the originals of which were signed manually.

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Postby Bergmann » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:02 pm)

The document in question is not a book, you see. It's a typewritten German document which were routinely numbered at the top of the page, whereas a number at the lower right hand is the equivalent of "pto".
I checked out a couple of German documents from that time, and you are correct. This would then place the 360,000 killed Jews on the first page of NO-1128.

As I said previously, I would like to see the facsimile of the full document, not just a single page. We are talking here of the alleged murder of over 360,000 people.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:11 am)

Bergmann wrote:
The document in question is not a book, you see. It's a typewritten German document which were routinely numbered at the top of the page, whereas a number at the lower right hand is the equivalent of "pto".
I checked out a couple of German documents from that time, and you are correct. This would then place the 360,000 killed Jews on the first page of NO-1128.

As I said previously, I would like to see the facsimile of the full document, not just a single page. We are talking here of the alleged murder of over 360,000 people.
I can give a link to the rest of this report 51 in translation:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 359#564359

The last page was signed by Himmler.

Have a nice Christmas (or other Holidays).

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Postby Gertrud » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:27 am)

Thank you!

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:20 am)

Vallon, your claimed translation of the text is avoiding my request for the Report 51; ALL of it, and original.

Why can't you produce the entire, original document ?

Is it incriminating against the assertions about the one page we do see?

Does the fake nature of that one page become even more obvious when we see the entire document?

You claim Himmler's signature .... where?
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html

You continue to dodge my points, why?
- no official stationary
- no signatures
- initials that could be easily added
- no indication of typist...standard procedure
- no forensic/physical confirmation via mass graves for numbers given
- could have been typed by anyone
- completely unverifiable


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:10 pm)

From my own understanding this document, if it even is authentic, speaks of terrorists, partisans or saboteurs. This is most likely why they will only show one page rather than the entire document in context.

It is pretty sneaky if you ask me, to claim dead combatants were ruthlessly massacred by the Germans. Combatants should also be uniformed otherwise they would be considered to be partisans or as we today call it; terrorists.

-haldan
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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:57 pm)

Haldan wrote:
From my own understanding this document, if it even is authentic, speaks of terrorists, partisans or saboteurs.
[...]It is pretty sneaky if you ask me, to claim dead combatants were ruthlessly massacred by the Germans.


I disagree. If you read the document it speaks of several categories:
category 1- discusses partisans killed in action or executed after
capture.

The jews are in category 2: bandit associates and suspects. Even then,
it is inevitable that(if genuine) it is just a cover up for murder.
Non-jews executed are listed as just a little more than 14,000 while jews are more than 360,000 and in only 4 months!!

As Bergmann has said, if this were true, the germans must have
been shooting every jew in sight. It would be necessary to check with
the Bundesarchiv if the document is an original wartime document, instead of some sort of authenticated copy or whatever. Then, if it is, it would be necessary to check it to see whether or not it is a forgery or
was tampered with.
At last, as Gertrud remarked, an authentic document not necessarily
reports true things. If this and the Einsatzgruppen documents reflected
the truth, there would have been zillions of Katyns but the soviets
could not come up with anything. The only one they did, Babi Yar, is
clearly just atrocity propaganda.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:47 pm)

How many men were supposedly behind these average 3000+ murders per day?

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:28 pm)

Those numbers do seem very high. Would be interesting to study the entire document and see exactly what it is about.

Point well-taken about the MULTIPLE Katyn-sites which would have been there had this shooting happend, on such a large scale as it is alleged, many more bodies than there ever was at Katyn. Yet the Russians or the Jews cannot come up with anything, except for the occasional and sometimes suspicious pictures with a couple of terrorists which are about to meet their maker.
Pictures which the Germans took. It makes sense to document a shooting of a group of partisans....
Had there been such mass graves, which there obviously must have been if the German soldiers went around shooting all these people, the Russians, as you said, would have done what the Germans did at Katyn. So what did they do? Submit the Katyn forrest massacre as a German crime.

If I attack a group of American soldiers in Iraq wearing no uniform or anything else which would identify me as being part of an army, would it be accurate to call the soldiers "murderers"; send the soldiers off to prison or shot them when found, hang Bush and most of the other stars of his government? Fake or lie about all sorts of documents which really were only reports of fighting terrorists?

-haldan

grenadier wrote:Haldan wrote:
From my own understanding this document, if it even is authentic, speaks of terrorists, partisans or saboteurs.
[...]It is pretty sneaky if you ask me, to claim dead combatants were ruthlessly massacred by the Germans.


I disagree. If you read the document it speaks of several categories:
category 1- discusses partisans killed in action or executed after
capture.

The jews are in category 2: bandit associates and suspects. Even then,
it is inevitable that(if genuine) it is just a cover up for murder.
Non-jews executed are listed as just a little more than 14,000 while jews are more than 360,000 and in only 4 months!!

As Bergmann has said, if this were true, the germans must have
been shooting every jew in sight. It would be necessary to check with
the Bundesarchiv if the document is an original wartime document, instead of some sort of authenticated copy or whatever. Then, if it is, it would be necessary to check it to see whether or not it is a forgery or
was tampered with.
At last, as Gertrud remarked, an authentic document not necessarily
reports true things. If this and the Einsatzgruppen documents reflected
the truth, there would have been zillions of Katyns but the soviets
could not come up with anything. The only one they did, Babi Yar, is
clearly just atrocity propaganda.
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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:10 pm)

R.Perle asks:
How many men were supposedly behind these average 3000+ murders per day?


I've often wondered about it too Richard. The answer though, is not
easy. The Einsatzgruppen started Barbarossa with a strenght of
some 3.000 including non-combat personnel. H.Krausnick claims
their strenght was continually increased and by summer of 1942 there
were some 16.000 germans plus more than 100.000 auxiliaries from
the ocuppied territories. However, the insurgency had also risen by then
to some 150.000 men and women. This NO-1128 reports shootings in
the months of August, Sept., Oct and November, 1942. Thus, it seems to me
that it would be hard to be shooting all these people and still fighting
such a large insurgent force.
Unless, as G.Rudolf remarks, they were fighting partisans as a hobby,
after a days' work(of murdering jews). :wink:
That the einsatzgruppen did fight the soviet guerrillas can be seen
from Hilbergs' book which shows, for example, that the combat
strenght( of the combat personnel) of Einsatzgruppe A fell from 725 men to 588 in the period between October 1941 and early Feb 1942.
Plus, the commander of one of the einsatzgruppen
was killed by insurgents in 42.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:14 pm)

H.Krausnick claims their strenght was continually increased and by summer of 1942 there were some 16.000 germans plus more than 100.000 auxiliaries from the ocuppied territories.

Well, to say that there were 100,000 'auxiliaries' and to say they were in the field actively pursuing and engaging the illegal partisan terrorists like the Einsatzgruppen are two different matters altogether.

On the number of 'Jews killed' in this fake document, 362,000; and knowing that the Jews were supposedly shot into pits and buried as claimed by supposed 'eyewitnesses', we must ask:

- Was there 362 graves of 1,000?
- Was there 180 graves of 2,000+?
- Was there 100 graves of 3,620?
- Was there 50 graves of 7,240?
- Was there 25 graves of 14,480?

So, where are the alleged mass graves? Why haven't they been dug up and shown to the world?

Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:25 pm)

Hannover wrote:
Well, to say that there were 100,000 'auxiliaries' and to say they were in the field actively pursuing and engaging the illegal partisan terrorists like the Einsatzgruppen are two different matters altogether.


Yes, Holocaust authors attempt to show this personnel increase in terms
of this "war against the jews" while glossing over or ignoring the connection with the rapidly increasing partisan threat. Some of the native auxiliary formations were among the most effective counter-insurgency forces in the german arsenal, such as the dreaded Druzhina and Kaminski brigades.

On the number of 'Jews killed' in this fake document, 362,000; and knowing that the Jews were supposedly shot into pits and buried as claimed by supposed 'eyewitnesses', we must ask:

- Was there 362 graves of 1,000?
- Was there 180 graves of 2,000+?
- Was there 100 graves of 3,620?
- Was there 50 graves of 7,240?
- Was there 25 graves of 14,480?


Precisely, and the 362,000 is just a fraction of the total claimed
for the einsatzgruppen, which by Hilbergs' 'conservative' estimates
were some 900.000 jews out of a total of 1.35 mil he believes
perished from all causes.
The killings according to the event reports oftentimes took place
in the outskirts of mid to large cities. We are told there were gazillions
of eyewitnesses. All that and the soviets could not find even one
of the huge mass murder sites. Stupid soviets! :shock:

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Postby Daniel Saez Lorente » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:04 am)

[quote=
The Bundesarchiv if the document is an original wartime document, instead of some sort of authenticated copy or whatever. [/quote][/quote]

The Bundesarchiv have no original Nuremberg Trial documents. Write and ask them. They'll tell you. They told me.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:00 pm)

Daniel wrote:
The Bundesarchiv have no original Nuremberg Trial documents. Write and ask them. They'll tell you. They told me.


That has been my suspicion. I have a friend who asked them and
got a negative answer too. I will write them, thanks.


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