Challenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

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SKcz
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Challenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby SKcz » 8 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:25 pm)

User Hans attempted to answer my challenges number 12, 13, 14., please read the thread below

"Online Video: Mr Death, The Rise And Fall Of Fred Leuchter"
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2998

C12. I challenge Hans to answer what the testimonies says about the time when the door was opened or when the ventilation was started in alleged gas chambers in Krema II-III.?

C13. I challenge Hans to answer why the ventilation system was more effective in rooms where noone claims that homocidal gassings took place.


Challenge number 14 will be processed in individual thread. Emphasises from quotes are mostly added by me.

To know all information about it, here is Hans´s quote from thread and from Pressac about unblocking the ventilation extraction orifices near the floor, which were blocked by the bodies of gassed victims as user Zulu pointed out in the thread.

Zulu wrote:[Moreover, for those calculated 117h we have to suppose that the ventilation worked properly. What about the issue concerning the fallen corpses which would have blocked all the little openings of the air extraction located near the floor? In such problematic conditions, how long was it supposed to take for ventilating totally the "gas chambers? Was that ventilation at least possible?
A schematic representation of that little ventilation's problem
What about "gassing operations" performed in rooms with more than 100 openings permanently in communication with the exterior?
Is such configuration well in accordance with the mandatory procedures exposed on the document NI-9912 (Pressac p.18)?


Hans wrote:
This was well addressed by Pressac already more than two decades ago:

"He then asked me to imagine:

“the situation in the LK 1 after the gassing of a large number of people: the corpses are heaped on top of one another; they block most of the air extraction orifices; the room is full of warm toxic gas; how can there be rapid and efficient mechanical ventilation? I would say that it is nor possible...”
[...]
What would the SS have done in the case of such an “incident”?

They would have proceeded in two stages:

1. Open wide the doors giving basement access through the north yard and those of the undressing room, whose ventilation system working at full power would prevent the basement being contaminated:

Before putting on their gas masks, the SS would have then ordered two to four members of the Sonderkommando to put on masks, open the gas chamber door and drag bodies out into the vestibule until several of the air extraction orifices had been cleared. Then the gas-tight door would have been closed again, the ventilation restarted, and to improve its efficiency all that was required was to open the Zyklon-B introduction covers, but not until that moment. After verifying by means of a gas detector that there was no longer any danger of hydrocyanic acid intoxication outside the gas chamber, operations would have resumed their “normal” course.

2. Once the gas chamber had been emptied, a squad of fitters or bricklayers would have fixed at the end of the chamber, in the southeast corner a steel duct of about 20 cm diameter and 2 meters high or built a brick chimney of about the same dimensions connecting with or protecting one of the lower air extraction orifices and enabling it to take in warm contaminated air from above. The time taken for the “repair” would not have been longer than an afternoon. Such an incident would not have interrupted the “operation” of the Krematorium. As the documents we possess at present make no mention of such work we can assume for the moment that the case of the “3000” never occurred, the number of victims from a convoy always being less than this."


http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0377.shtml


CHALLENGE 12


C12. I challenge Hans to answer what the testimonies says about the time when the door was opened or when the ventilation was started in alleged gas chambers in Krema II-III.?

Hans wrote:This was ALSO already addressed by Pressac

http://www.holocaust-history.orgauschwi ... 0016.shtml

I advise Skcz to actually read this major work on Auschwitz, from page 1 to page 563, before asking questions that are already thoroughly addressed there.


Ok, let see what we have there.

"Then there was a FURTHER wait of 20 to 30 minutes BEFORE switching on the ventilation. The door was opened and the extraction of bodies commenced immediately ("sofort"). This is the process as SEEN AND HEARD by witnesses. But why wait 20 to 30 minutes after the complete death of the victims before opening the door? This is waste of time when we consider the rapid throughput rates imposed by the SS, always in a hurry. Hoess and Nyiszli are mistaken as regards the moment at which the ventilation began. It was in fact switched on not more than 10 minutes AFTER the introduction of the gas and it was left running FOR 20 to 30 minutes BEFORE the door was opened. The witnesses state the contrary, and for them it is the truth. The fact is that as long as the gas tight door remained closed, no SOUND could be heard and people could see INTO the gas chamber only through the inspection peephole. The switching on of the ventilation could not be heard because the motor was located in the roof space of the Krematorium and the witnesses were in the basement. What is more, there were five or six electric motors in the root space, three of them being used for other ventilation systems. How was it possible to distinguish the noise of the gas chamber ventilation motor if that of the furnace room, of the same power, was running at the same time? In truth, the witnesses HEARD the noise of the ventilator fans WHEN the door was opened and they had THE IMPRESSION that the ventilation had just been switched on. "

AUSCHWITZ: Technique and operation of the gas chambers Jean-Claude Pressac, 1989, The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation p.16.
http://www.holocaust-history.orgauschwi ... 0016.shtml


Henryk Tauber

“Up to March 15, 1943, we heated the ovens, or rather, we driedthem out. From March 15, 1943, on ward transports of persons began to appear – whole convoys – [and the Germans] started to také most of them to he crematorium to gas and cremate them. The first transport to come to the crematorium amounted to 4,000 persons.“

Soviet testimony, p. 4


But Danuta Czech in her Kalendarium speaks about 1,492 gassed victims on March 14 1943. (1989. p.440)

Tauber again:

“from the situation of the corpses one could see that people had moved away from those columns and had been trying to reach the door

(p. 136)

”After the people had been pushed into the gas chamber and were shut in there and before the ‘Cyklon’ was poured in, the air from the chamber was removed; in fact, the ventilation of the chamber could be used for that purpose.”

(pp. 136f.)


Ventilation was switched on:

after the door of the gas chamber had been opened

(p. 137)

such a stench one could not stand it

it was very warm in the chamber


(p. 136)

You can find more in Auschwitz: The Case For Sanity, Carlo Mattogno, p. 402-403.


Pressac from Han´s link

.“After 15 minutes of ventilation the air in the room would be completely renewed.“


AUSCHWITZ: Technique and operation of the gas chambers Jean-Claude Pressac, 1989, The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation p.16.


But Richard Green and Jamie MacCarthy

“Jamie McCarthy and I demonstrated that even were his (Germar Rudolf) claim of 6-8 air exchanges per hour correct, that a slave laborer could enter the gas chamber safely after 20-40 minutes of ventilation without a gas mask.

IN THE COURT OF APPEAL, Report by Richard J. Green, p. 9
http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-​david/rudolf/affweb.pdf
(copy whole link I don´t know what is wrong)


In next publication, Pressac claims, that alleged gas chamber was equipped by two blowers with capacity 8,000 cubic meter per hour and use as a source invocie from Topf&Sohne no. 729 of May 27, 1943.

(Jean Claude Pressac, Les crématoires d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse, CNSR, Paris 1993, p. 74, 118. )

But previously in 1989 he stated

“The electric motors to be used were of 3.5 HP and the system would have had a capacity of 8,000 m³ per hour. The installation was never fitted in either of the two Krematorien.“

AUSCHWITZ: Technique and operation of the gas chambers Jean-Claude Pressac, 1989, The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation p.389.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0389.shtml


And Green uses Pressac´s claim to write

“We return to the question of how long it would take to ventilate the gas chamber from the level used in killing to a level which the Sonderkommando could safely tolerate without a gas mask. We have seen that this took place in less than 15 minutes from an initial concentration of 900ppmv.“

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/


Here is the real document menioned above which speaks about real used ventilation capacity, invoice no. 729 and additionally, the invoice no. 171.

no. 729
http://www.vho.org/D/anf/image2.gif
http://www.vho.org/D/anf/image2a.gif/

no. 171
http://www.vho.org/D/anf/image3.gif
http://www.vho.org/D/anf/image3a.gif

If the links don´t work, use this source, Documents no. 2 and no. 3
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html#d2

As you can see, they clearly speaks about two blowers with the capacity 4800 cubic meters per hour for alleged gas chamber (one in suction, one in pressure), one blower of capacity 10,000 cubic meters per hour for alleged undressing room (in suction) and about blowers with capacity of 3,000 cubic meters per hour for dissecting room, laying out room and washroom.

But this is not all, after accusation of Mattogno by Richard Green from misrepresenting the real capacity of ventilators:

“Note that the Holocaust-denier Carlo Mattogno has misrepresented these figures in his essay, "Auschwitz: The End of a Legend."

Note 41
"Mattogno misrepresents planned ventilation capacity that was at one point planned as if it were real:"

Consequently, for the supposed homicidal gas chamber, the SS had foreseen 4,800 ÷ 506 = 9.48 air exchanges per hour, while in the supposed changing room 10,000 ÷ 902.7 = 11 air exchanges per hour: thus the gas chamber was less ventilated than the changing room! (Mattogno´s quote)

"However, he is at least honest enough to point out (two pages earlier) that a larger capacity ended up being used":

Pressac states that Leichenkeller 1 of Crematories II and III was actually equipped with ventilators with a capacity of 8000 m3/h of air (p. 74 and 118), and even mentions the invoice of the ventilation system for Crematory III: invoice No. 729 of 27 March 1943 (p. 105, note.184).“ (Mattogno´s quote)

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/


Green evidently missed, that not Mattogno assumedt this wrong larger capacity, but Pressac who claimed it and Mattogno only quoted Pressac.

Green later admited:

“Holocaust-denier Carlo Mattogno claims in his essay, "Auschwitz: The End of a Legend"that the ventilation capacity is 4,800 ÷ 506 = 9.48 air exchanges per hour based upon what the SS planned to use originally. Pressac claims that although the SS planned for only 4,800 cu m/hour, they eventually installed ventilation capable of 8000 cu m/hour. John Zimmerman has recently researched, 502-1-327, a Topf bill dated May 27, 1943, which may refer to crematorium II (however, the first page in his copy is missing so he cannot yet be sure); it may indicate that the 4800 cu m/hour figure is correct.“

IN THE COURT OF APPEAL, Report by Richard J. Green, p. 7
http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-​david/rudolf/affweb.pdf
(copy whole link I don´t know what is wrong)


He admited that Mattogno was correct, but didn´t expressed it, on the contrary he gave all the credit for exposing the wrong capacity to his companion John Zimmerman who allegedly „has recently researched“ the invoice mentioned above although Mattogno published this document already in 1994 in work which Green previously criticised for wrong ventilation capacity, so Green never saw this document.

“Auschwitz: The End of a Legend"
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/anf/Mattogno.html

You can also see that previously Green have no problem that invoice number 729 "refer to crematorium II" and have no problem with content of this document, but later he clearly wrote that it may refer to crematorium II“ (ridiculous, he still don´t know that this document actually refers to crematorium III as even Pressac indicated!) and that it “may indicate that the 4800 cu m/hour figure is correct.“ After exposing of this wrong arguments, he began to use word "may" to make an impression that maybe they refer to some other building with mortuaries, dissecting rooms and etc. and that there is still possible that crematoria were equipped by some mighty nazi blowers!

Robert Jan van Pelt but used Geern´s – Pressac´s wrong capacity and adopted it in his publication Case for Auschwitz (2002, p. 365f.)


Again, this is not all, Green wrote

“Rudolf made a similar argument. In that argument, he claimed that the gas
chamber in Crematorium II had a capacity of only 6-8 air exchanges per hour.
In the present affidavit, Rudolf claims 9.94 exchanges per hour.“

[i]“In the same article
(Chemistry is not Science)[/i], we also did the calculation with a value we believed to be more accurate of 15.8 exchanges/hour. A faster rate increases the ventilation, however, even the number that Rudolf acknowledges as correct produces an adequate ventilation time. By using his number, the estimate is a conservative one that leaves room for error.“[/i]

IN THE COURT OF APPEAL, Report by Richard J. Green, p. 9
http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving ... affweb.pdf
(copy whole link I don´t know what is wrong)


But in fact, Rudolf wrote about 6-8 air exchanges this:

“Calculations have shown that the ventilation facilities in the alleged gas chambers of Crematoria II and III in Birkenau - facilities designed only for ventilation of ordinary mortuaries - could have performed at most 6 to 8 air exchanges per hour.91 Due to the poor system configuration (inlet right above outlet) and the overcrowding of the room with bodies, half an hour would never have sufficed to achieve harmless levels of hydrocyanic acid following a gassing, even if there had been no Zyklon B still releasing gas for hours on end. “


The 'Gas Chambers' of Auschwitz and Majdanek, Germar Rudolf
http://www.codoh.com/found/fndgcger.html


So Germar Rudolf clearly based this calculation on bad performance, overcrowding of the room, wrong ventilation duct configuration and etc. Green tried to implicate that Rudolf is inconcsistend or that he do wrong calculations and arrive to different numbers. No, he lowered final number of exchanges due to solid arguments which even Pressac pointed out with his invented post gassing activity about unblocking the orifices or with mentioning of bad aeration ducts configuration (1993, 1993, p. 74f.). Rudolf was in fact too generous and didn´t take into consideration blocked extraction orifices and speak only about overcwrowding and other problems. In his Rudolf Report, he stopped to take this into consideration during his calculation and arrived to correct figure which is based only on calculation for normal used morgue (4800/504, Rudolf Report, p. 98) and not for gas chamber. His previous calculation was for used using the morgue as homicidal gas chamber, his later higher calculation was for morgue. I don´t know why Rudolf stopped to take this into consideration, but Green tried to make an impression of Rudolf´s confusing although he clearly said why he arrived to lower number of air exchanges.

Summary:

1-witnesses were again confused and mistaken in the part of testimony which contradict existence of gas chambers, sound familiar to me.

2-Pressac forgot Tauber´s testimony which also contradict his whole theory, he spoke about switching on ventilation after opening the doors, he even didn´t know how the ventilation worked and spoke about ”removing air from chamber before pouring Cyklon“ so he transformed gas chamber to vacuum chamber and no Cyklon needed to pour in since the victims would be propably dead in allegedly ”hermetically” sealed chamber due to lack of oxygen. He also spoke about horrible ”stench” so he didn´t even use gas mask after the door was opened before ventilation was switched on and this means that Pressac´s theory about next ”cirkus act” following every gassing because of blocked little extraction orifices of ventilation is wrong, no gas masks used by alleged ”sonderkommando.“ according to Tauber, the first class witness.

3-Pressac claims, that after 15 minutes, the gas chamber was ventilated even when he clearly spoke that only several extraction orifices were unblocked..

4-Pressac speaks about unblocking of several orifices so it means that the already very bad normal operated ventilation of gas chamber (9,5 air exchanges) was even worse, because only several orifices were allegedly unblocked, Pressac with this theory admited that this is a serious problem. Ventilation had to be drastically reduced.

5-Pressac claims, that after 15 minutes, the gas chamber was ventilated even when he clearly spoke that only several extraction orifices were unblocked. He try to tell us that SS ordered to members of "sonderkommando" to put on gas maks to drag out bodies from chamber to unblock only several extraction orifices of ventilation. SS were allegedly standing safe in undressingroom without gask masks.

6-Pressac invented the activity which was needed after every gassing to ublock extraction orifices to ventilate gas chamber to explain this serious problem, the witnesses don´t speak about such a remarkable and important activity thus this argument is irrelevant, on the contrary Pressac clearly demonstrate how bad and dumb were Germans which only demonstrate absurdity of orthodox claims.

7-Tauber also spoke about 4,000 peoples in gas chamber (19 per square meter) which were able to move away from alleged wire-mesh columns to save their lives and thus make the Pressac theory about post gassing activity even more worse since the door were blocked with lot of bodies which were needed to be drag out to unblock only ”several openings” Tauber is confused again, with impossible density of 19 peoples per square meter no moving from columns is possible, on the contrary this mass of bodies would have destroyed the alleged columns which were allegedly from perforated sheet metal.

8-Tauber clearly spoke about "removing of air from the gas chamber before the Cyklon was poured in" and contradict his own claim about "warm chamber" because the preheated air was pumped out thus contradict any other theories about pre-heated gas chambers by peoples inside. If the gas chamber was allegedly warm after gassing is irrelevant since the heat is needed before and during the gassing.This claim about "efficient human heaters" is absurd even without Tauber.

9-Danuta Czech ignore Tauber´s testimony and drastically reduced number of gassed to 1,492 and place it on different day.

10-Pressac is self confused since he even don´t know what was the capacity of blowers.

11-Green and McCarthy based their calculations using Pressac´s wrong capacity and they ignored Pressac´s quote from 1989 , that blowers with larger capacity “were never installed.“

12-Green and McCarthy and maybe Pressac himself never saw these important documents although Mattogno published them in 1994.

13-Green ignores Pressac´s invented activity about unblocking the extraction orifices, he doesn´t mention any blocking of extraction orifices since this fact is devastating for already non-effective ventilation.

14-Green also uses strange math, according to him, 15,8 cycles will make gas chamber safe after 15 minutes so no masks needed, but even when the Rudolf´s figure of 6-8 cycles (that is half of Green´s figure) is correct, gas chamber is allegedly safe after 20-40 minutes, but this is wrong, because in this case the chamber should have to be safe after minimal time of 30 minutes and not 20 since Rudolf´s maximum figure is half of Green´s. Greens propably take into consideration the opening of alleged roof chimneys as he wrote, but again, no testimony or source produced for this invented activity which could have contaminate local area poisonous gas.

15-Green comitted “little fraud“ with his try to reveal that Rudolf is inconsistent in his calculations.

16witnesses were confused although they spent year/s as an eywitnesses to all of these alleged activity thus they should have to know enough information about it.

17-and finally, Hans ignored my question about testimony which served to Pressac for his theory of unblocking the ventilation openings, because Hans know as I know, that Pressac totally invented it and no ”confused witness” spoke about such a remarkable activity, on the other side, they contradict it completely.

Conclusion

According to Hans or Pressac, the crucial points of testimonies are wrong again, witnesses were again confused and even contradict their own claims, "holocaustians" contradict their own theories and invent theories which aren´t supported with the testimonies or documents or material evidence, some of them (Green, Hans, MacCarthy) ignore claims of other "holocaustinas"(Pressac) to make their theories more believeable and their calculations more stronger. Green and Pressac base their calculations on bad data. Green is also really dishonest person. Pelt used Green wrong ventilators capacity to make an impression of „effective ventilation“ in gas chamber a spreaded it to the world in his publication.

Ventilation wasn´t efficient at all, ventilation wasn´t able to ventilate alleged gas chamber.

Note - Hans, I know what he wrote, but for me is better to ilustrate whole absurdity by your own words, it is much more easier to demolish it with your own arguments and sources so no worry I know what Pressac wrote.

SKcz
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Re: Callenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby SKcz » 8 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:47 pm)

CHALLENGE 13

C13. I challenge Hans to answer why the ventilation system was more effective in rooms where noone claims that homocidal gassings took place.

Hans wrote:The difference in the air exchange rate per volume unit for the two Leichenkeller is in fact not significant. The key to understand why both basements have similar efficiency is found in the fact the ventilation was not planned for the homicidal gas chamber, but that the already planned basement with ventilation was chosen as gas chamber. The exterminations facility were not planned from the scratch, but the crematoria were simply but efficiently modified to have a conveniently operating gas chamber. There was no reason to increase the number of air exchanges in the gas chamber because the already planned ventilation was entirely sufficient. The likewise powerful deaeriation ventilation of the undressing room allowed flexibility and its optional use as morgue.


Your claim about effective ventilation has been refuted in Challenge 12.

Is it important since this is completely unlogical, i want to know why the ventilation system is worse than in undressing room. This is not all, more effective ventilation was even in dissecting room, laying-out room and in washroom, see CHALLENGE 12. So your answer why the Germans implemented worse ventilation to gas chamber is...?

...propably this I guess:

Hans wrote:“The key to understand why both basements have similar efficiency is found in the fact the ventilation was not planned for the homicidal gas chamber, but that the already planned basement with ventilation was chosen as gas chamber.“


Ok, here we go. Here are quotes from Irving vs Lipstadt trial, they reflect claims from Robert Jan van Pelt and are summarized in transcripts:

Ventilation

“7.62 The drawings further provide for the ventilation of the supposed gas chamber in crematorium 2. Van Pelt infers that the purpose of the system for extracting air was to extract poisonous air and so speed up the removal of the corpses to the incinerators.“

Sonderaktion

"7.66 Another allegedly incriminating document is the record of a meeting held on 19 August 1942 between members of the Auschwitz construction office and a representative of the engineers Topf to discuss the construction of four crematoria. The note of the meeting refers to the construction of triple oven incinerators near the 'Badenanstalten fur Sonderaktionen' ('bath-houses for special actions': the words are in quotations in the original)."

"13.76 [...] Few and far between though they may be, documents do exist for which it is difficult to find an innocent explanation. I have in mind for example the minute of the meeting of 19 August 1942 (paragraph 7.66 above), which refers to Badenanstalten fur Sonderaktionen ("bath-houses for special actions") and the so-called Kinna report (paragraph 7.67 above)."
Undressing Rooms

"7.121 […] Contemporaneous documents identified by the Defendants show that the new design incorporated a undressing room (Auskleiderkeller). Irving was unable to explain in cross-examination what need there would have been for an undressing room if the facility was to be used only for the fumigating of dead bodies and inanimate objects."


Gas Tight Doors

"7.60 The principal feature identified by van Pelt is the redesign of the double door to the supposed gas chamber in crematorium 2. When in 1942 the drawings were executed for the adaptation of this crematorium, this door in common with others in the same building was designed to open inwards. Careful scrutiny of the drawings reveals, however, that the drawing of the inward- opening door has been scratched out. A fresh drawing dated 19 December 1942 was made by Jakob, the chief of the drawing office, who rarely undertook drawings himself. It provides for the door to the supposed gas chamber to open outwards. There is no apparent reason for this. To van Pelt the obvious explanation is that the chamber was to be used as a gas chamber. If the door opened inwards, it would be impossible to open it after the administration of the gas because of the crush of corpses against the inside or the door of those who struggled to get out when they realised what was happening to them."

7.68 […] In a letter dated 31 March 1943 Bischoff presses for the delivery of a gastight door with a spyhole of 8mm glass, with a rubber seal and metal fitting. There is a timesheet of a construction worker which makes reference to fitting gastight windows to crematorium 4.

"7.121 […] Moreover, there would have been no need for a metal-protected, reinforced spy-hole if only corpses and metal objects were to be gassed (see paragraph 7.68 above)."


The quantity of Zyklon-B required

"7.123 In relation to Irving's argument that the quantity of Zyklon-B delivered to the camp could be explained as being needed for fumigation purposes, Van Pelt produced a supplementary report in which he noted that the amount of Zyklon-B delivered to Auschwitz vastly exceeded the quantity delivered to other camps. He made a detailed calculation, based on delivery documents and on stated assumptions about the frequency of fumigations, that of the total amount of Zyklon-B delivered to Auschwitz in 1943 (1,200 kilos) [recte: 12,000, G.R.] not more than 9,000 kilos would have been required for fumigation. That would leave unaccounted for 3,000 kilos, which van Pelt contended would have been more than enough to kill the 250,000 Jews estimated to have been gassed to death that year."

Stairs and Slides

"7.61 The next feature identified by van Pelt relates to the entrance to crematorium 2 and the means of which access was gained to the morgue below. In its original design, the entrance was situated to one side of the building. Inside the entrance there was a slide down which corpses would be tipped to reach the level of the morgue. But the drawing shows that this design was changed in late 1942 so as to move the entrance to the crematorium to the street side of the building. At the same time a new stairway to the morgue was designed to replace the pre-existing slide. Van Pelt pointed out that the original design apparently contemplated that only corpses would need to be transported down to the morgue. The new design on the other hand is consistent with a wish to enable people transported to Auschwitz to proceed from the railway station through the new entrance, then to walk downstairs into what is alleged to have been the undressing room and thence into the supposed gas chamber. The stairway has been redesigned in such a way that it would be extremely awkward to carry corpses down to the morgue on stretchers. Van Pelt concludes that the object of the redesign of the stairway was to enable living people to walk downstairs rather than for corpses to be carried down."

"13.76 The nature of the redesign in 1942 of crematorium 2 appears to me, for the reasons summarised in paragraph 7.59 to 7.63 above, to constitute powerful evidence that the morgue was to be used to gas live human beings who had been able to walk downstairs."

"13.84 [...] Secondly, there is the evidence of van Pelt that the redesign of crematorium 2 in late 1942 was intended to cater for live human beings to walk down to an undressing room before being led into the chamber and to do away with the corpse-slide previously used to convey dead bodies downstairs."


http://www.focal.org/judg.html


So all of these things are alleged proofs of intention to gas peoples and that the crematoria were planned to gass peoples. According to orthodox story, the gassing operation was already in progress from September 1941 in crematoria I and then also in alleged Bunkers 1 and 2 during 1942, this mean that all crematoria should have to be planned with criminal purposes.

Hans, you have only two possibilities:

Choice no. 1 - Crematoria were not planned to kill - you contradict findings of Robert Jan Van Pelt and Judge Gray from Irving/Lipstadt Trial and findings of his team, so if you want to insist on your claim that crematoria were not planned with criminal purposes, you must finally dismiss everything from ventilation, undressing rooms, vergasungkeller, wooden plates in ceiling for dummy showers, changed stair position, gas tight doors and etc. and Pelt and all of these alleged proofs are false as revisionists have exposed and Irving trial findings listed above were false.

Here I would like to point out Pressac´s statement:

“The arguments against Krematorium II having been planned from the outset as an instrument of extermination are as follows:...“

AUSCHWITZ: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, Jean-Claude Pressac, 1989, The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation p.284-285]


This statement contradict the later “criminal traces“ from Pressac´s since criminal traces cannot be indicated in crematoria which aren´t planned with criminal purposes.

Pressac or Pelt want to tell us that Germans realized some crucious problems a months later, for example, the Germans did not realized that doors which opens inward are problem for homicidal gassings (victims would block door) and spent several months to solve it and reverse it, but again, the Germans forgot, that doors which open outward can be easily demolished with mass of peoples in gas chamber since they are fitted only by hinges and with simple handle. And that´s not all because they made another flaw and installed wooden “gas-tight“ doors, as Pressac claimed and as you can see in Pressac´s book, (1989, p. 49-50) Photo 29. and Photo 23. and (p. 486, D11,12) so the possibility of demolishing is even much bigger and no doubt - 100%

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0486.shtml
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0050.shtml

Choice no. 2 - Crematoria were planned to kill - Pelt´s and other alleged (and refused) proofs are correct according to orthodox historians, but this means that the German planned crematoria with criminal purposes which completely contradict logic and claims about effective ventilation and make Germans one of the most dumbest peoples in human history which is untanable, because Germans were in fact true opposite. This also mean that although planned, both pairs of crematoria are of completely different design which is again absurd since the first pair was allegedly effective.

Hans, I am sorry for these explicit words, but you are completely f****d together with orthodox historians, becuase no matter which possibility you will choose to advocate, both are total disaster for orthodox theory.

Hans wrote:The likewise powerful deaeriation ventilation of the undressing room allowed flexibility and its optional use as morgue.


Can you tell me how the alleged morgue could have to serve as morgue since this room was needed for alleged gassing operations?

Can you tell me which testimony spoke about using undressing room as a morgue?

Can you tell me about testimony which speaks about location of storage of dead peoples (and typhus victims) from the camp when the capacity was allegedly used for gassing operations?

Also next problems:

The crematoria IV and V were planned with criminal purposes?

If yes, why no ventilation was implemented when they found that ventilation in previous “murdering facilities“ was effective and why didn´t they eliminate all problems associated with previous crematoria and even changed allegedly „effective productive industrial design of death“ in crematoria II and III?

Why did they designed even more dumbest killing factory which was allegedly planned for gassing?

If no crematoria were not planned to kill, is there at least one single building which was actually planned to exterminate peoples? Which one?

Conclusion

If planned, extermination story is untanable, if they were not planned, story is untanable.

Mkk
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Re: Callenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby Mkk » 8 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:06 pm)

It is alleged that the order/plan whatever for turning the crematoria into gas chambers came in late 1942, but yet documents from March 1943 are the ones that show the ventilation system in the "gas chamber" was less powerful than the undressing room! The documents are somewhere in "Auchwitz: Plain Facts".

Also, the ventilation was NOT powerful. It is at the upper limit of the reccomended quota for morgues, but 7 times LESS than a delousing chamber. (This is in Auchwitz: Case for sanity, where Mattogno refutes Pelt's argument on the "powerful ventilation system")

(It midnight now, I will sign off but post some links in the morning. :) )
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Callenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby SKcz » 8 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:14 pm)

Mkk - yes, the morgues are ordinary morgues with ventilation system suitable for morgue according to recommendations.

"Wilhem Heepke’s classic work on the construction of crematoria states that a morgue requires a minimum of 5 air exchanges per hour and 10 during intensive use.234 Thus it is clear that the ventilation installations provided for the morgues were designed, in terms of orders of magnitude, for morgues in intensive use or for morgues containing the bodies of epidemic disease victims."

W. Heepke, Die Leichenverbrennungs-Anstalten, C. Marhold, Halle 1905, p. 104.
(The Rudolf Report, p. 95)


""For comparison: professionally designed Zyklon B disinfestation chambers with circulating air systems were equipped with 72 air exchanges per hour."

Gerhard Peters, Emil Wüstiger, “Sach-Entlausung in Blausäure-Kammern,” Zeitschrift für
hygienische Zoologie und Schädlingsbekämpfung, 10/11 (1940), pp. 191-196, here p. 195.
(Ibid., p. 95)


I forgot one point. The Germans were supposedly again so dumb that they did not attempt to reverse ventilation configuration even whe they (according to Pressac) learned that this is serious problem.

How complicate would be reversing ventilation configuration and place aeration near floor and de-aeration near ceiling to solve this serious problem? I guess that the only needed thing is to switch blowers, am I correct?

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Re: Callenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby SKcz » 8 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:41 pm)

Here is the important 180 degrees turn from Pressac which i forgot to mention:

“The SS wanted to verify if the power of the ventilation of morgue 1 would compensate for its original disposition, that is, air intake at the top and outlet at the bottom [of the morgue], which was designed for a mortuary, but which would have to be inverted for gas chamber, requiring air intake at the bottom and the outlet at the top.” (pp. 71f.)

And because by this time morgue 2, having become a changing room, no,longer required a ventilation system – Pressac claims – the ventilation systems were installed in Crematories II and III but the ventilators’ motors were not. (pp. 79f.)

Jean Claude Pressac, Les crématoires d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse, CNSR, Paris 1993
(AUSCHWITZ: PLAIN FACTS A RESPONSE TO JEAN-CLAUDE PRESSAC, Germar Rudolf, Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The End of a Legend p. 154.


So Pressac refuted his previous invented theory since the undressing rooms according to this later publication, was not provided with ventilation because motors were never installed! Thus the basement would be badly contaminated by poisonous gas and SS would not have to be able to be there without the gas masks as Pressac stated. He also admited that non-reversed aeration configuration is serious problem which SS allegedly tried to solve with higher blower capacity, but as we know, this capacity was never installed and is refuted by documents.

Pressac himself refuted Hans´s claim about using undressing room as morgue since the victims would be hardly tricked with "fake shower" theory since the undressing room would smell like ****. There should be need to somehow ventilate undressing room before the another batch of victims can enter undressing room. After every gassing, there should be need to somehow ventilate basement to get rid of poisonous gas which spreaded through the basement after every gassing operation.

I think that this is the end of story, these facts cannot be no longer ignored.

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Re: Challenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby Hannover » 8 years 4 months ago (Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:49 pm)

The story absurdly claims that the alleged gas chambers at kremas II & III were ventilated by ducts running along the base of each wall. But also according to the storyline, the bodies were piled up like this:

Image
So, how did that work?

See the 'holocaust' charlatans utterly demolished here:
Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

Relevant text by yours truly from another thread:
For 'survivor's who claim to have witnessed gassings at Auschwitz/Birkenau:

- How were your brethren tricked into thinking they were getting showers when the storyline states that SS men stood on the roof of the alleged 'gas chambers' and poured Zyklon-B granules (a pesticide) into the alleged openings on the roof? The alleged homicidal gas chamber was mostly buried, meaning the roof was just a few feet above ground level and in clear sight of the alleged next batch of 2,000 Jews who were allegedly standing just outside the 'gas chamber' door awaiting their turn.

- How were your brethren tricked into thinking they were getting showers when the storyline states that SS men on the roof removed the Zyklon-B containers that supposedly they had previously lowered into 'holes' in the 'gas chambers' roof? It takes hours for the Zyklon-B granules to finish releasing it's lethal cyanide load and the story states that batches of 2,0000 Jews were gassed in mere minutes within the 'gas chambers'. Allegedly there was another batch of Jews awaiting their turn just outside the alleged 'gas chamber' where they could watch this entire procedure, as well as being gassed where they stood.

- How were your brethren tricked into thinking they were getting showers when the storyline states that the 'gas chambers' ventilation systems removed the cyanide gas out into the open air where another batch of Jews were supposedly standing right next to the 'gas chambers'. And wouldn't the people dropping like flies in the vicinity have told you something?

- How were your brethren tricked into thinking they were getting showers when the storyline also states that the SS opened the alleged 'gas chambers doors' in just minutes in order to allow the cyanide to escape into the open air thereby gassing everyone in the general vicinity?

- How were your brethren tricked into thinking they were getting showers after viewing the dead bodies of allegedly gassed Jews, since the 4 ft. X 9 ft. hand drawn elevator which was supposed to have lifted 2,000 Jews in just a few minutes to the crematoria above the alleged ' gas chamber' would not have been capable of such a magical feat?


This is too easy

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Callenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby Zulu » 8 years 4 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:49 pm)

SKcz wrote:Mkk - yes, the morgues are ordinary morgues with ventilation system suitable for morgue according to recommendations.

I forgot one point. The Germans were supposedly again so dumb that they did not attempt to reverse ventilation configuration even whe they (according to Pressac) learned that this is serious problem.

How complicate would be reversing ventilation configuration and place aeration near floor and de-aeration near ceiling to solve this serious problem? I guess that the only needed thing is to switch blowers, am I correct?


Reversing the ventilation wouldn't have eliminated the issue represented by more than 100 openings communicating permanently with the outside. Moreover, the entrance of the fresh air was not forced in the ventilation system installed at both rooms; so, the corpses blocking the openings near he floor would have STOPPED the renovation of the air more easily than for its forced extraction.
Furthermore, the dummy SS "forgot" that by simply exchanging the motored fans between the "undressing room" and the "gas chamber" they would have increased 114% the power of the ventilation of the murder room. They didn't even imagine that 7,5 HP is more than twice 3,5 HP!

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Re: Callenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby Zulu » 8 years 4 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:21 pm)

SKcz wrote:Here is the important 180 degrees turn from Pressac which i forgot to mention:

And because by this time morgue 2, having become a changing room, no,longer required a ventilation system – Pressac claims – the ventilation systems were installed in Crematories II and III but the ventilators’ motors were not. (pp. 79f.)

Jean Claude Pressac, Les crématoires d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse, CNSR, Paris 1993
(AUSCHWITZ: PLAIN FACTS A RESPONSE TO JEAN-CLAUDE PRESSAC, Germar Rudolf, Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The End of a Legend p. 154.

So Pressac refuted his previous invented theory since the undressing rooms according to this later publication, was not provided with ventilation because motors were never installed! Thus the basement would be badly contaminated by poisonous gas and SS would not have to be able to be there without the gas masks as Pressac stated. He also admited that non-reversed aeration configuration is serious problem which SS allegedly tried to solve with higher blower capacity, but as we know, this capacity was never installed and is refuted by documents.
.../
I think that this is the end of story, these facts cannot be no longer ignored.

Wow, that's new for me! Such assertion doesn't appear clearly on his 1989's book. The Vergasungkeller's letter of 29th January 1943 mentions that the equipments of ventilation are still on the railways.
Because the wagons are blocked, Messrs Topf & Sons have not been able to deliver on time the ventilation and air extraction installations as requested by the Bauleitung. These will be fitted as soon as they arrive, so that it is probable that the installation will be entirely ready for service on 20th February 1943

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkere ... ller.shtml

Then Pressac quotes a document of 14th February 1943
. [BW 30/34, p. 84 and BW 30/27, p.61]
A Topf letter of 11th February 1943 received by the Baulietung on 14th February 1943 confirming the dispatch of:
· One No. 450 fan [for Leichenkeller 1 / gas chamber];
· A wooden No. 450 fan [probably an error: should be 5501, whose 7.5 HP motor is missing and will be temporarily replaced by a 10 HP Motor with the same speed of rotation.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0374.shtml

Actually, it is not very clear after that whether such fans were actually mounted as planed. It would be a fantastic notice for me if the motors for those fans never arrived at the camp.
Please, post the scans of those related pages of the Pressac's book of 1993 Les crématoires d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse, in order to learn which documentary sources he cites for such bomb. With NO operational ventilation, that would simply invalidate ALL testimonies of gassing operations at KII and III.

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Re: Callenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby SKcz » 8 years 4 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:29 pm)

Zulu wrote:
SKcz wrote:Here is the important 180 degrees turn from Pressac which i forgot to mention:

And because by this time morgue 2, having become a changing room, no,longer required a ventilation system – Pressac claims – the ventilation systems were installed in Crematories II and III but the ventilators’ motors were not. (pp. 79f.)

Jean Claude Pressac, Les crématoires d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse, CNSR, Paris 1993
(AUSCHWITZ: PLAIN FACTS A RESPONSE TO JEAN-CLAUDE PRESSAC, Germar Rudolf, Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The End of a Legend p. 154.

So Pressac refuted his previous invented theory since the undressing rooms according to this later publication, was not provided with ventilation because motors were never installed! Thus the basement would be badly contaminated by poisonous gas and SS would not have to be able to be there without the gas masks as Pressac stated. He also admited that non-reversed aeration configuration is serious problem which SS allegedly tried to solve with higher blower capacity, but as we know, this capacity was never installed and is refuted by documents.
.../
I think that this is the end of story, these facts cannot be no longer ignored.

Wow, that's new for me! Such assertion doesn't appear clearly on his 1989's book. The Vergasungkeller's letter of 29th January 1943 mentions that the equipments of ventilation are still on the railways.
Because the wagons are blocked, Messrs Topf & Sons have not been able to deliver on time the ventilation and air extraction installations as requested by the Bauleitung. These will be fitted as soon as they arrive, so that it is probable that the installation will be entirely ready for service on 20th February 1943

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkere ... ller.shtml

Then Pressac quotes a document of 14th February 1943
. [BW 30/34, p. 84 and BW 30/27, p.61]
A Topf letter of 11th February 1943 received by the Baulietung on 14th February 1943 confirming the dispatch of:
· One No. 450 fan [for Leichenkeller 1 / gas chamber];
· A wooden No. 450 fan [probably an error: should be 5501, whose 7.5 HP motor is missing and will be temporarily replaced by a 10 HP Motor with the same speed of rotation.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0374.shtml

Actually, it is not very clear after that whether such fans were actually mounted as planed. It would be a fantastic notice for me if the motors for those fans never arrived at the camp.
Please, post the scans of those related pages of the Pressac's book of 1993 Les crématoires d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse, in order to learn which documentary sources he cites for such bomb. With NO operational ventilation, that would simply invalidate ALL testimonies of gassing operations at KII and III.


Zulu, you missed important point, Pressac spoke only about undressing room not about gas chamber, according to his later book the motors were not installed only in undressing room, read my post again. This means that whole invented theory about activity which was needed to unblock openings is refuted by the author himself, Pressac refuted his own theory and this problem of blocked opening still means to be serious and nobody explained it, no historian, no witness.

Zulu wrote:
SKcz wrote:Mkk - yes, the morgues are ordinary morgues with ventilation system suitable for morgue according to recommendations.

I forgot one point. The Germans were supposedly again so dumb that they did not attempt to reverse ventilation configuration even whe they (according to Pressac) learned that this is serious problem.

How complicate would be reversing ventilation configuration and place aeration near floor and de-aeration near ceiling to solve this serious problem? I guess that the only needed thing is to switch blowers, am I correct?


Reversing the ventilation wouldn't have eliminated the issue represented by more than 100 openings communicating permanently with the outside. Moreover, the entrance of the fresh air was not forced in the ventilation system installed at both rooms; so, the corpses blocking the openings near he floor would have STOPPED the renovation of the air more easily than for its forced extraction.
Furthermore, the dummy SS "forgot" that by simply exchanging the motored fans between the "undressing room" and the "gas chamber" they would have increased 114% the power of the ventilation of the murder room. They didn't even imagine that 7,5 HP is more than twice 3,5 HP!



I don´t think so, because with reversed blowers, is possible to to at least increase efficiency, because with suction duct near ceiling is possible to remove poison and due to suction in chamber is possible to bring fresh air even with using blocked openings near floor. This will increase efficiency but this not solve whole problem of course, but at least better than nothing, but "dumb" nazis were not intelligent enough to change blowers to increase efficiency.

Of course, the problem of communicating openings are not solved, you are right, the poison would spread through the ventilation system out of the chamber.

This ventilation problem is enough to refute homicidal use.

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Re: Challenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby Hannover » 8 years 4 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:57 pm)

Ventilate the Zyklon-B to where? I don't understand why one would bother with the ventilation issue. Regardless of 'blowers', 'fans', whatever, what is claimed means that the pesticide, Zyklon-B, was supposedly ventilated outside to the open air, thereby gassing everyone in the vicinity. And with the bodies piled up as alleged, the vents would be blocked to begin with. Remember this all had to happen in mere minutes so that the next load of Jews waiting outside could be gassed ... within minutes, on & on.

The Jewish supremacists have entrapped themselves in so many lies, yet they hope that no one will notice. And if someone does notice, the Jewish supremacists have mandated laws in much of the world to prevent discussion of their lies.

Guess what. People are figuring this out.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Challenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby SKcz » 8 years 4 months ago (Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:05 am)

Hannover wrote:Ventilate the Zyklon-B to where? I don't understand why one would bother with the ventilation issue. Regardless of 'blowers', 'fans', whatever, what is claimed means that the pesticide, Zyklon-B, was supposedly ventilated outside to the open air, thereby gassing everyone in the vicinity. And with the bodies piled up as alleged, the vents would be blocked to begin with. Remember this all had to happen in mere minutes so that the next load of Jews waiting outside could be gassed ... within minutes, on & on.

The Jewish supremacists have entrapped themselves in so many lies, yet they hope that no one will notice. And if someone does notice, the Jewish supremacists have mandated laws in much of the world to prevent discussion of their lies.

Guess what. People are figuring this out.

- Hannover


That´s why the delousing chambers were isolated or ventilated gas to higher level so there wasn´t risk of gassing of peoples in the vicinity of delousing chamber.

Of ocurse, the vicinity of alleged gas chamber of Krematoria II and III would be contaminated (in the case that ventilation was possible) Is still totally absurd to assume that Germans would let to contaminate vicinity of the gas chamber and that they would not care about this problem since this would need to wear gas masks all the time, they would have to somehow manage to protect all peoples without gas masks against the effects of cyanide gas which would spread to vicinity.

The only thing needed to at least partly solve this problem is to equip ventilation with long exhaust pipes or chimneys similar or longer as the US chamber has, for example here Parchman gas chamber, Mississippi.
Image

Or as the train delousing chamber has here in Budapest, notice the long exhaust pipes.
Image


But of course, there is still some risk because of wind. This problem is still serious, because there were peoples allegedly around the Krematoria, Germans waited to introduce gas, peoples marched to undressing room. The difference between delousing chamber and homicidal chamber is, that the area around the delousing chambers was propably closed and nobody could enter that location during ventilation.

Again, the exterminationists want to tell us that Germans in Auschwitz were the dumbest peoples in the world even when in different location, they operated huge gas chamber for trains with clearly visible exhaust pipes to ventilate poison gas to high levels and to avoid contamination.

It looks like that nobody is able to refute these plain facts, Hans is propably not interested, ventilation issue is serious enough to refute homicidal use.

edit - new links to pictures since original links are down.
Last edited by SKcz on Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Challenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

Postby Hannover » 8 years 4 months ago (Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:02 am)

Good points, SKcz.

The difference between delousing chamber and [allged] homicidal chamber is, that the area around the delousing chambers was propably closed and nobody could enter that location during ventilation.

The delousing chamber were kept closed for many hours, as recommended by the instructions on the Zyklon-B canisters. Actually I believe the recommendation was a full 24 hours before anyone could safely enter a deloused facility, building, etc.

And to re-affirm your position: One can forget about any ventilation pipes, I seriously doubt if the civilian examples shown were opened during the critical hours of highest cyanide release. The storyline says that the 'gas chamber' doors were opened after mere minutes, there are no claims of high extending ventilation pipes, nor are any seen on any aerial or ground photos. And considering that the absurd storyline says this was a veritable 24/7 industrial scale operation during peak periods of 'extermination', any piping contents would sooner or later be windswept into the lungs of anyone around. There are no claims of all the camp staff running around in gas masks.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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