Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

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Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Inquisitor » 7 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:37 pm)

A British scientist claims to have found mass graves usuing "ground penetrating radar." Note the headline that "deniers" are "proved" wrong again! Well, we'll be waiting for all this "proof" I suppose.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1jk2tyX2D

[article text & images added by Moderator, 1/18/12]
British archaeologist destroys Holocaust deniers' argument with mass grave find at Treblinka

'Ground penetrating radar' used because Jewish burial sites cannot be disturbed
Holocaust deniers had previously used the lack of graves to support their theories

By Lee Cain
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1jk2tyX2D

Last updated at 11:23 AM on 18th January 2012


A British forensic archaeologist has unearthed fresh evidence to prove the existence of mass graves at the Nazi death camp Treblinka - scuppering the claims of Holocaust deniers who say it was merely a transit camp.

Some 800,000 Jews were killed at the site, in north east Poland, during the Second World War but a lack of physical evidence in the area has been exploited by Holocaust deniers.

Forensic archaeologist Caroline Sturdy Colls has now undertaken the first co-ordinated scientific attempt to locate the graves.

Image
Treblinka death camp in Poland where 17,000 Stone Memorial is one of the few reminders of the horrific events of the past

Treblinka death camp in Poland where 17,000 Stone Memorial is one of the few reminders of the horrific events of the past

As Jewish religious law forbids disturbing burial sites, she and her team from the University of Birmingham have used 'ground-penetrating radar'.

Her work at the site, where the Nazis tried to destroy all traces of industrial-scale killing, is being followed in forthcoming Radio 4 documentary The Hidden Graves Of The Holocaust.

Sturdy Colls said: 'All the history books state that Treblinka was destroyed by the Nazis but the survey has demonstrated that simply isn’t the case.

'I’ve identified a number of buried pits using geophysical techniques. These are considerable in size, and very deep, one in particular is 26 by 17 metres.'

The programme’s presenter says that the pits contain the burnt remains of thousands of bodies.

Image
A rare photograph from the Treblinka death camp in Poland

The forensic archaeologist, who has now presented her findings to the authorities responsible for the memorial at Treblinka, added: 'I really hope this is the first stage in a long-term programme to seek out those hidden graves of the Holocaust.'

Survivor Kalman Taigman remembers his arrival at the camp’s railway station, packed into a cattle wagon.

'I was with my mother. We were about 100 people in a wagon. They opened the doors, firing guns and hitting us, and sent us into a yard. I ran with my mother and tried to calm her.

'They told me to leave my mother but I didn’t do it quickly and I was hit on the head. When I got up, she was gone. She went with all the rest of the women to the gas chamber.'

TREBLINKA: NAZI DEATH CAMP TARGETED BY HOLOCAUST DENIERS

Treblinka was a Nazi death camp in occupied Poland near the village of Treblinka during World War II

The camp was constructed as part of Operation Reinhard

Treblinka operated between July 23, 1942 and October 19, 1943

During this time, approximately 850,000 men, women and children were killed at Treblinka.

This figure includes more than 800,000 Jews, as well as a few thousand Romani people

The camp, which was operated by the SS and Eastern European Trawnikis, was split into two sections named Treblinka I and II

Treblinka I was designed for forced-labour center

Treblinka II was designed as a death factory with more than 99 per cent of all arrivals being immediately sent to its gas chambers.

Treblinka II ended operations on October 19, 1943 following a revolt by its Sonderkommandos.

Beginning in March 1942, the SS implemented Sonderaktion 1005 to cover up the murder of millions of people during Aktion Reinhard.

There actions were so comprehensive that ever since the end of the Second World War, Holocaust deniers have used the site as evidence of misinformation about Nazi genocide.

They claim the site was merely a transit camp - a myth now debunked by the latest discoveries of mass graves.

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:01 am)

As Jewish religious law forbids disturbing burial sites,
I am curious as to whether this has ever been accepted as grounds not to fully investigate in a criminal murder case.

The photo looks very odd, even allowing for it being heavily cropped and enlarged. Of course, if genuine, it proves nothing, being perfectly consistent with queuing for showers.

If we assume the survivor's story is true, we know that he was separated from his mother. His assumption that she was killed is just that, an assumption, reinforced no doubt by the terrible trauma of separation. But one wonders why he wasn't himself subsequently killed. We always hear that no one got out of Treblinka 2 alive. Did they make this small motherless child a "sonderkommando".

As always, a heavy dose of confirmation bias in the article, but I'm afraid Revs aren't immune from that either.

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby borjastick » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:48 am)

It is the usual 'new holocaust stories' time as we approach Jan 27. All designed the keep the story running and the guilt and sympathy bubbling away nicely. Read the DM story in this post and then the comments and they all follow the same pattern of abusing those like us who question the story, the numbers etc and then ask for proof. Not too much to ask is it? Take this week's tragedy on the Italian cruise ship. We are told that over 4000 people were on board, but only 11 dead so far. What if someone claimed that all had died and yet no investigation was to be held and no bodies or other conclusive evidence provided. Nonsense isn't it?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Mkk » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:53 am)

I remember a "Caroline" from a post on the Inconvenient history blog. She said she was setting out to refute "treblinka deniers". We know believers will do anything to save their beloved religion, and making up some stuff like this is easy enough. Look at that Hungarian Holocaust "scholar", he relied on made up documents to argue against Graf.

Well, I'll believe it when I see it. I'd like to see a detailed report, with photos and so on. Also,

The programme’s presenter says that the pits contain the burnt remains of thousands of bodies.


Only a few thousands?
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Mkk » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:54 am)

Well, we'll be waiting for all this "proof" I suppose.

We're still waiting for proof from Kola on his "mass graves", and that's been 10 years.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Mkk » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:21 am)

This might be of interest:

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/staff/profiles/cs30.jsp

I graduated from the University of Birmingham with a BA(Hons) Archaeology and Ancient History in 2007 and an MPhil(B) in Archaeological Practice in 2008. I have completed my PhD, entitled ‘Holocaust Archaeology: Archaeological Approaches to Landscapes of Nazi Genocide and Persecution


http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2010/11/uk ... a-deniers/

“Forensic archeology is the collection of evidence for use in a legal case. This can be anything from investigating a single murder to genocide or war crimes.

It’s hard to believe that there has been no systematic search for the six million victims who perished in the Holocaust.

800,000 people were murdered here at Treblinka and their bodies were never found. It’s time we started looking.

I’m a scientist and while I obviously feel the same emotions as everyone else when I read about the atrocities committed during the Holocaust, I need to be able to do my job objectively. So I need to shut out these emotions sometimes, and let the evidence speak for itself.

There are some very vocal Holocaust deniers who use spurious archeology to claim that the Holocaust never happened. That’s why it’s so important that we use the most up-to-date scientific techniques. This can be done, and it should be done.“


So from the evidence we can conclude this woman is not exactly a im[partial observer, so to speak.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:39 pm)

- I see no GPR images whatsoever.
- And how did they supposedly do the GPR scan since a veritable forest of boulders had intentionally been placed atop the place where they claim the alleged mass graves exist ... boulders placed for the purpose of stopping Revisionists from exposing their lies, of course
- I don't buy this 'Jewish law' nonsense. Do they mean to tell me that Jewish corpses cannot be exhumed for any reason?
- And how do they know their alleged remains are Jews?
- Where's a full, complete, verifiable forensic report. This whole thing is laughable.
- I love the faked photo*, naked Jews allegedly just standing there waiting to murdered?

Revisionist are going to have field day with this. We have them cold.

*From:
Do "Documentary" Photographs Prove the
National Socialist Extermination of the Jews?

UDO WALENDY
http://www.codoh.com/found/fndgcffor.html
I recommend looking at the entire piece, but here is a damning excerpt.

3.3 Total Fabrications
Illustration Group 15 allegedly shows naked inmates lined up outside the gas chambers of Treblinka.32 Only children, and persons mentally paralysed by mass suggestion, could fail to distinguish between a real photo and this painted scene, which has even been altered in its third version by the addition of one more woman.


Image
Ill. 15a: from: Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw, Faschismus - Getto - Massenmord (p. 334), captioned: "Women with children just before execution."


Image
Ill. 15b: From Gerhard Schoenberner, Der gelbe Stern, Hamburg, 1960. The caption comments: "The photographer of these women entering the gas chamber with their children in their arms is unknown."


Image
Ill. 15c: from: S. Einstein, Eichmann - Chefbuchhalter des Todes, Frankfurt/Main, 1961, p. 202.


This really is too easy.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Lohengrin » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:47 pm)

I copied this from 'Gawain' on the SF Forum:

Thomas Kues wrote in Inconvenient History about this naive and wishfull thinking archaelogist, who is up trying the same "investigation" where a lot of her colleagues already miserably failed:
Inconvenient History | Revisionist Blog » UK Forensic Archeologist Sets Out To Refute Treblinka “Deniers”
Quote:
In 2007-2008 the abovementioned three archeologists (Gilead, Haimi and Mazurek) attempted to do what Kola had not been able to do: to find the alleged gas chamber building at Sobibór. To their help they had experts in geophysics, high resolution metal detection, a magnetic gradiometer, a terrain conductivity meter, ground penetrating radar, aerial photography, and GPS mapping devices – exactly the “most up-to-date scientific techniques” which Ms. Sturdy Colls is talking about. Despite the fact that the team from the outset “knew roughly where the gas chamber was located“, and that the area they had to investigate amounted to less than 3 hectares, they had to conclude in 2009 that “the location of the gas chambers is a complex issue that has to be solved, an important objective for future archaeological research at Sobibór“! [9] In the August 2010 issue of Reader’s Digest Yoram Haimi put it even more bluntly: “we’re still looking for the gas chambers.” [10] Another word of caution: It is easy to make a fool of oneself if one clings to scientifically indefensible dogmas!

I can only wish Ms. Sturdy Colls good luck in her work, which is precisely the kind of effort that we holocaust revisionists welcome.

In the meantime I advise her to read Carlo Mattogno and Jürgen Graf’s studyTreblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?,[11] especially the chapters on previous forensic examinations and the alleged mass burials and cremations (pp. 77-110, 137-157).
[9] J. Graf, T. Kues, C. Mattogno, Sobibór. Holocaust Propaganda and Reality, op.cit., pp. 162-167.
[10] Leonard Felson, “The Secrets of Sobibor: An Oral History”, Reader’s Digest, August 2010, online: http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspi...cle183235.html
[11] Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago 2004. Available athttp://www.holocausthandbooks.com/

Some complementary remarks are:

- Apparently the "proof" that "mass graves", "mass gassings" and "revisionists are wrong" is after 70 years not yet given;

- We've seen already many times this kind of announcements (Prof. Kola, Haimi, Pater Desbois, et al), which all died a very, very silent dead and neither gave a grain of proof, tactically motivated by "Halachidic reasons".

- Miss Colls may be very "intelligent", "competent" and got a lot of academic "qualifications", she is also utterly naive and very less of a scientist.
Te last thing a scientist would do, is make (him)herself subordinated to religion. She let Rabbi's decide which methods she yes or no has to use, and with that, the quality of her "scientific" research. That's unforgivable, destroys beforehand any scientific conclusion and will be undoubtedly the cause for her oh so predictable failure.

- Not being an archaeologist, I ascertain that reliable proof of mass graves and the cause of death of the bodies only can be given if those graves are opened and eventual remains pathological be examined.
This cannot be ascertained by Ground Penetrating Radar alone. Only the contrary ('No mass Graves', Richard Krege et al.) can be ascertained with GPR. Miss Sturdy Colls should know that.

- She also has to know, that if her search for mass graves proves idle, she doesn't get the possibility to publish that objectively; she will be demonized, smeared an the Misjpoche never will forgive her for that.

This is Holocaust "science", you know.

A last remark is about the measure of the "mass grave" miss Coll mentioned. She writes 26 by 17 metres where other sources before spoke of 26 by 17 yards. But let us take the dimensions of miss Coll, then the following math can be made:
26 x 17 x 3 metres depth, makes 1326 cubic metres; Let's assume that (maximum) 8 bodies per cubic meter can be buried, than the number of bodies in that mass grave could't have been no more than 10.600. (We're speaking for Treblinka II over 870.000 'gassed' jews, remember?)

Suppose the revisionists are right and Treblinka II indeed was a Durchgangslager, then we know from all the transports to Auschwitz, that more than 1% of the people died in the trains ("witnesses").
Only this means that in Treblinka more than 8.700 people has to be buried/incinerated.

Conclusion: This umpteenth effort to try revisionists wrong, is doomed to fail and so is the search for proof of the JHV, the Jewish Holocaust Version.

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby The Warden » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:55 pm)

They've gotten so used to people accepting whatever they say, they seem to have forgotten people are more informed and tend to question authority these days. One can only hope this is the beginning of the end, but realistically, I think the best anyone can hope for is the end of the one sided information being passed around.
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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Mkk » 7 years 9 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:01 am)

- We've seen already many times this kind of announcements (Prof. Kola, Haimi, Pater Desbois, et al), which all died a very, very silent dead and neither gave a grain of proof, tactically motivated by "Halachidic reasons".

On this forum a news report claiming mass graves had been found at Sobibor (by Kola)... Ofcourse, he provided no proof but the most important part of his and later findings is nobody could find the gas chamber. In have the feeling this Caroline will slip away into the shadows, or write a Desbois-style book.

A few additional points-
-As shown above, Miss Colls has a ideological attraction to the Holocaust. If her findings found there were no mass graves, she could possibly lose her job and reputation.

-No findings have been shown. We have no video, no photographs or anything. Krege reproduced both a photo of the results on a computer screen and a video of his team surveying the camp.

-Nothing proves it is bodies in these graves, nor how many they are.

- This Jewish burial law is rolled out often, but what would the Jews prefer: a burial law of theirs broken or proof for their beloved religion?

-Science should not be restrained by religous teachings. Nobody cares who were in 5the various communist mass graves that have been unearthed over the years.

-No report, nothing.
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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 9 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:43 am)

Image

This photo is also used with captions such as: "women [...] Babi Yar" or "women [...] Birkenau".

So is it Treblinka, Babi Yar or Birkenau?

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 7 years 9 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:50 pm)

Toshiro wrote:
This photo is also used with captions such as: "women [...] Babi Yar" or "women [...] Birkenau".

So is it Treblinka, Babi Yar or Birkenau?


Good comment, Toshiro. The best in a long string. Not to be too critical :D but some of these threads become so long and wordy with posts that have no information in them, that one can wonder if the purpose is to keep people from wanting to read this forum. It's like a few people talking to each other in a private conversation.

This photo, as presented so often, has clearly been drawn on and the figures outlined with a black pen. But the number of camps it's been identified as taken place at is what is most important. The Holo Industry needs to determine exactly where and when it was taken. At least that. Someone above asked: Is that too much to ask? No, it's not. An answer should be demanded.

Notice the guard standing there casually looking at something in the other direction. He is not concerned about what the women might do (like grab his gun and shoot him with it !?)
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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Werd » 7 years 9 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:17 pm)

Interesting Stormfront discussion.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t860337/

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 9 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:58 pm)

Another supposed location of the photograph: Mizocz Ghetto in the Ukraine.

Jewish women from the Mizocz Ghetto in the Ukraine, which held roughly 1,700 Jews. Some are holding infants as they are forced to wait in a line before their execution by Germans and Ukrainian collaborators. Below: A German policeman shoots individual Jewish women who remain alive in the ravine after the mass execution.


Image

How do they know it's a German policeman and not an Ukrainian?

Image

Jewish women and children are ordered to undress prior to their execution.


From USHMM:

Naked Jewish women, some of whom are holding infants, wait in a line before their execution by Ukrainian auxilliary police.

According to the Zentrale Stelle in Germany (Zst. II 204 AR 1218/70), these Jews were collected by the German Gendarmerie and Ukrainian Schutzmannschaft during the liquidation of the Mizocz ghetto, which held roughly 1,700 Jews. On the eve of the ghetto's liquidation (13 October 1942), some of the inhabitants rose up against the Germans and were defeated after a short battle. The remaining members of the community were transported from the ghetto to this ravine in the Sdolbunov Gebietskommissariat, south of Rovno, where they were executed. Information regarding this action, including the photos, were acquired from a man named Hille, who was the Bezirks-Oberwachtmeister of the Gendarmerie at the time. Hille apparently gave the five photos (there were originally seven) to the company lawyer of a textile firm in Kunert, Czechoslovakia, where he worked as a doorman after the war. The Czech government confiscated the photos from the lawyer in 1946 and they subsequently became public. That the photos indeed show the shooting of Jews in connection with the liquidation of the ghetto was also confirmed by a statement of Gendarmerie-Gebietsfuehrer Josef Paur in 1961.

Date: Oct 14, 1942
Locale: Mizocz, [Rovno; Ukraine] Poland; Ukraine

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Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Mkk » 7 years 9 months ago (Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:10 pm)

The above photo look ridiculous. No clothes, no blood, no bullet holes. Have ever seen someone that's been shot? It looks different to that.

Anyway, this thread is for discussing this alleged finding of mass graves, not photos.
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