Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Lohengrin
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:34 pm

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Lohengrin » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:26 pm)

astro3 wrote:
Caroline Colls’ work at the University of Birminham sounds very thorough – using the same technology GPR as Mr Krege but reaching an opposite conclusion:
". . . the use of archaeological methods has revealed structures, pits and other subtle traces of the camp’s existence and layout... Multiple geophysical and topographic survey methods were utilised at the site, allowing various aspects of the landscape to be mapped. When this information was compared with archival material, such as aerial photographs and witness maps, the boundaries of the camp were identified and below-ground features were characterised.”

Miss Colls work doesn't sound "very thorough" at all in this stage.
In the first place the title of this story: "Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka". Nothing of it is showed yet.
Her "conclusion" so far is not supported by any concrete proof or veryfiable research. The sentence ". . . has revealed structures, pits and other subtle traces of the camp’s existence and layout..." means nothing at all.
Literally the same blahblah we heard 4 years ago at the start of the "Sobibor Archaeological Project". Miss Colls Story so far is nothing else than an exact Copy of that disastrous and bogus project in Sobibor, set up by Yoram Haimi, Yad Vashem, a Jewish University and the media misjpoche. They too spoke beforehand of "busting the Revisionists", high-tech technology, the most renowned scientists" and more of this misleading propaganda.
They also pretended to "find the boundaries and layout of the camp", which was not necessary at all, because all that was already known.
What they Not found, was that where this was all about: mass graves, gas chambers, ashes, bones or any forensic trace of that.


As long there is no plain, clear forensic report of those "mass graves" in Treblinka, it is simply more of the same bogus propaganda.

Miss Colls better be careful: If she didn't find anything substantial (like all her colleagues before), she has to keep deadly silent about it. Then we will hear nothing more of her and her scientific research. Because "Halachidic" principals dominate her "research", her efforts are beforehand to no avail, as Cloud so magnificently demonstrates with his leprechaun box.

Breker
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 764
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:39 pm
Location: Europa

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Breker » 7 years 9 months ago (Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:48 pm)

As Lohengrin said:
as Cloud so magnificently demonstrates with his leprechaun box.


Cloud wrote:There is a leprechaun inside of this box, but I won't allow anyone to open it (why?) and verify for themselves (which would be the most reasonable thing to do). So how can you tell whether or not if there really is a leprechaun inside of this box?

Image

I couldn't agree more, Lohengrin. Nice one, Cloud. A perfect representation of how the shysters and liars operate. I too am not afraid to call them what they are. These people have hurt and murdered innocent people and will continue to hurt and murder innocent people using the "The Holocaust" litany of fabricated lies as their cover.
B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

astro3
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby astro3 » 7 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:40 am)

Today's BBC News item about Ms Crolls' research, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363 written by Ms Crolls, is a syllogism in three parts.
1. The ground cannot be disturbed:
'No excavation was carried out and the ground was not disturbed, which would be a violation of Jewish law and tradition, banning the exhumation of the dead.'
2. The technology used cannot detect dead bodies:
'no geophysical methods will reveal conclusively what is below the soil - they do not detect human remains. '
3. From which it follows,
'Any doubts about the existence of mass graves at the Treblinka death camp in Poland are being laid to rest by the first survey of the site using tools that see below the ground'
Perfect! Clearly, this conclusion reinforces the inital premise of not disturbing the ground. Ms Crolls is to be congratulated for getting her PhD with such dazzling logic.

This so-called 'news' item reminds everyone of the BBC Radio 4 program on her work at 8 pm tonight. It strangely alludes with no reference given to a 1946 investigation which supposedly found:
"a cellar passage with the protruding remains of burnt posts, the foundations of the administration building and the old well, and here and there the remains of burnt fence posts, pieces of barbed wire, and short sections of paved road. Bone fragments can still be seen on the surface of the ground, especially after rain. They also discovered human remains as they dug into the ground, and on the surface "large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones. Despite this, in a later statement they said they had discovered no mass graves.”

Its puzzling that this totally unreferenced assertion gets into the BBC 'news,' written by the person who the report is supposed to be about.

Challenge to Krege
The BBC news alludes to this investigation as ‘the first survey of the site using tools that see below the ground’ - that is a direct challenge to Krege, did his team really do their ground-penetrating radar work over three weeks in October 1999 - or not?

Concerning the very silent Richard Krege, SKCZ suggests: ‘I think that he was frightened by holocaust lobby and that is reason why he did not publish all needed information’. The Adelaide newspaper report says it was a week’s work they did at Treblinka – the video (http://www.whale.to/b/treb1.html) says 3 weeks. The paper says ‘Mr Krege, who will address a public meeting in Adelaide tonight at the start of an eight-day tour’ – did that ever happen? An Aussie H-D tour with scientific evidence? It strains my credibility. It says he was a 30-year old qualified electronics engineer, but if so public talks ‘denying the H’ would surely have terminated his career. The paper says Dr Fred Toben was accompanying him on his tour. Toben denied that to me. Nobody seems to have any report that Krege wrote out, if he did. Would his team not have had difficulty in getting permission to spend all that time investigating Treblinka, including drilling six foot down – that which the modern British team says its not allowed to do?

For Krege’s report to have any credibility I suggest we would require three things: (1) somebody to produce a copy of the original CD-Rom of their data which the team sent out to ‘experts’ twelve years ago; (2) the manuscript prepared around 2004 to be published by Germar Rudolf in the Holocaust Handbook series; which hopefully would allude to the CD-Rom (3) one of the original team to confirm that he was there, with Mr Krege.

Mkk
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 566
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:00 am

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Mkk » 7 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:16 am)

that is a direct challenge to Krege, did his team really do their ground-penetrating radar work over three weeks in October 1999 - or not?

We have videos of Krege at treblinka with the Ground penetrating radar. Ofcourse, he could be faking, but we do know he was there.

Also, some of this disturbed earth could be from the Polish-Soviet investigations. These are described in Mattogno's Treblinka book. In one, Lukaszkiewicz describes digging six meters deep, which explains in part the deepness of this disturbed soil, assuming this Caroline is telling the truth, or partially.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

SKcz
Member
Member
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:17 am

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby SKcz » 7 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:36 am)

astro3 - I did not say only that he was frightened, you forgot to quote my comment before "I only wonder why he didn´t publish his results, was he frightend off by holocaust lobby? Sound plausible to me." which means that this is the most plausible explanation to me and not that this is correct explanation.

So my opinion is this one because is the most plausible one to me and more logical than the other possible explanations like "Krege investigation is lie" "Krege found mass graves" "Dog ate Krege´s report"...

C15.I challenge anybody to show me Jewish law which prohibite exhumation of all murdered Jewish victims from all crime sites on the world.

This law is complete swindle, I cannot imagine that police is prohibited to exhume buried body of some murdered Jew from crime site. This fraudulent alleged law is used to explain why no excavation took place, but they forget that this is in strong contradiction with exhuming bodies from other alleged crime sites where they claims that jewish bodies are buried (for example "Holocaust by bullets"). This is also in contradiction with fact, that Jewish buried victims of some murderer are of course exhumed to investigate the crime. Again another lies and contradictions.

This one is sweet
'no geophysical methods will reveal conclusively what is below the soil - they do not detect human remains.


So they could say "this is mass grave" about any disturbance on every place.

This Carolyn Colls investigation is exactly what I expected, another swindle which only helped to revisionists and cast more doubts. I guess that no data will be published even about "soil disturbance", only words in media.

Mkk wrote:
that is a direct challenge to Krege, did his team really do their ground-penetrating radar work over three weeks in October 1999 - or not?

We have videos of Krege at treblinka with the Ground penetrating radar. Ofcourse, he could be faking, but we do know he was there.

Also, some of this disturbed earth could be from the Polish-Soviet investigations. These are described in Mattogno's Treblinka book. In one, Lukaszkiewicz describes digging six meters deep, which explains in part the deepness of this disturbed soil, assuming this Caroline is telling the truth, or partially.



If Lukaszkiewicz "paper" investigation is true (I doubt some claims from him) you can notice that Lukaszkiewicz had no problem to dig up alleged mass graves, so where was the Jewish law and tradition?

EtienneSC
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby EtienneSC » 7 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:08 pm)

I just listened to the BBC Radio 4 version of this on 23 January 2012. Amongst the highlights were a statement that "holocaust deniers say that it was a transit camp". This is significant progress from the BBC, to whom I have written. Previously they would not mention that there was any debate at all, but this time, sonme seems at least to have read Graf & Mattogno, or about them. The programme is here, but apparently not available to listen to at present:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b019rlns

An interesting point mentioned was that the "pit" discovered was 26 by 17 metres and "at least 4 metres deep", according to the forensic archaeologist. Presumably this was the largest, as the large size was what was stressed. There were five other pits which were "sizeable". The interviewer said "that's huge, you could bury hundreds, maybe thousands of bodies there", but the forensic archaeologist didn't acknowledge any discrepancy between that and the numbers claimed.

There was a story about the flame from a funeral pyre drifting over to a mass grave, where the blood of the victims floated to the surface, caught fire and burned for a day. The flammability of blood was not commented on by the forensics expert.

It was stated that plants would not grow roots over the mass grave because of the soil quality and that the unforested area "probably" thus contained mass graves, but the next minute it was stated that the mass graves might be under a forest as local people had said so. The remains of buildings had been found, but the radar does not work beyond four metres deep and it was not possible to excavate the pits to find out what was in the disturbed soil.

Apart from that, there were the usual baby killing stories and Himmler's coup in giving a recorded speech before a large audience about how well the "secret" of the holocaust was being kept.

User avatar
Kingfisher
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 9 months ago (Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:50 pm)

...the "pit" discovered was 26 by 17 metres and "at least 4 metres deep


According to http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/appendixd2.shtml
It is concluded that a reasonable estimate for the contents of a mass grave 50 X 25 X 10 meters is at least 100,000 people.

So, unless they are much deeper than has allegedly been shown, we'd need more than fifty of those "pits" for 700,000 people, by H.H.'s calculations.

Random
Member
Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Random » 7 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:17 am)

EtienneSC wrote:It was stated that plants would not grow roots over the mass grave because of the soil quality


This makes no sense whatsoever. The graves at Treblinka are supposed to be filled with ash from the cremating of many thousands of bodies on wood pyres, and pulverised bone fragments. Wood ash is a useful fertilizer, due to it's high potash content and "blood, fish and bone" (animal remains) is also full of plant nutrients. Plants would thrive on such soil.

They have claimed in the past that bone fragments were frequently found on the surface, so that would eliminate an ash layer being hidden, covered with a larger layer of poor quality heavy soil.

astro3
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby astro3 » 7 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:18 am)

I agree with EtienneSC about last night's BBC program. 'Huge open burning pits of flesh' - the original Holohoax image, the 'fiery sacrifice' which enabled them to take over the Holo-word - 'flood burning as if it were fuel' - and this utter crap is coming from the University of Birminham! It would appear that Ms Crolls has not found evidence for one single buried body. This is supposed to be a science department of a British university - and its serving up the Spielberg 'Schindler's List' phantasm of huge piles of burning corpses! Buried, then dug up and then burnt. I didn't quite catch why they needed to be dug up.

A real science program would have started off telling us what ground radar could see, what its wavelength was, how far down it could go, etc. We are talking about a large open field surrounded by woodland, with some undulations. There are 17,000 stones sticking out of the ground, with names put onto them, they said: but no details about who or when.

Of course, they had to first get permission from a 'Chief Rabbi' for their survey of the area - even though, God forbid, they were not going to dig anywhere. That might give them the awful shock of (gasp) not finding any bodies.

User avatar
Inquisitor
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:40 am

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Inquisitor » 7 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:52 am)

How they think this refutes "deniers," let alone in anything approaching a definitive fashion is beyond comprehension. Indeed, making such a fuss over these alleged "findings," while producing NOTHING meaningful in the way of tangible evidence just BEGS for that much MORE Revisionist criticism and dersion, from the get go. In their desperation to prove Revisionism wrong, it seems they are getting sloppy or simply stupid. Claiming something is there, but cannot be disturbed based on Jewish religious law(yeah, like Jews are all so religious...please!), almost plays directly into Revisionism's hands!

It's the same type "evidence" we are always provided with. It's "there" because we SAY it's there. "Yes, that's fascinating...but "WHAT, or WHOM exactly is THERE, and HOW MUCH of it/them is THERE...and WHERE exactly is it, or are they etc, etc??????"

"...um...you're an anti-Semite"

And we're back to square one.

Mkk
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 566
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:00 am

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Mkk » 7 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:25 am)

From Ettiene's post, it could be these findings actually debunk the Holocaust storyline! There were 5 pits, of which one was atleast 26 by 17 by 4, allegedly. That equals atleast 1768 square meters. A grave, can at maximum hold 6 bodies per square meter, so this grave could hold at maximum (1768 times 6 equals) 10,608 bodies. There were five other pits which were sizable, but seemingly not as big as the previosuly mentioned one. There doesn't seem to be any exact descriptions, but even if all these pits were the same size they could only fit about 60,000 bodies! Are any other pits described? Others must have been smaller.

Ofcourse, nothing confirms a) Caroline is telling the truth b) What caused this ground disturbance and c) How many bodies are actually in the pits. Some of the disturbance, as I said above, could be from diggings of the Soviets and Poles as described in Mattogeno's book.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

Breker
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 764
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:39 pm
Location: Europa

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Breker » 7 years 9 months ago (Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:48 pm)

This whole 'cannot exhume Jews due to Jewish law' is a load of rubbish. examples:

http://www.israelburials.com/

DO YOU OR YOUR LOVED ONES WANT TO BE BURIED IN ISRAEL?

Achuzat Kever helps Jewish families, worldwide, bring their loved ones to their final resting place in Israel. We also arrange exhumations anywhere in the world for the purpose of transferring the mortal remains to Israel.

English speaking, we take care of everything from reserving a burial plot, transport of casket to Israel, officiating at funeral service, arrangement and 'perpetual' care of tombstone.

Full information, with pictures and plans of cemeteries available.

Reserve a plot anywhere in the Holy Land — Jerusalem, Beit Shemesh, Haifa, Zfat, etc.

Fair, affordable prices — protecting your interests in bringing the cost of funerals within reach of everyone.

Based in Israel, we deal with all local issues, making it easier for families at the time of their loss.

If required, we will arrange kaddish to be recited for the mandatory period.

Someone to turn to 24 hours a day.

Under constant Rabbinic supervision.

Perpetual Care

Approved by Hagoan Rav Chaim P. Scheinberg (shlita).


More.

http://israel.usembassy.gov/disposition.html
G. Exhumation of Remains:

In accordance with Israeli health regulations, remains of persons of the Jewish faith may be disinterred a year from the date of burial. There is no law prohibiting disinterment of remains of persons of other faiths at any given time, provided that the Ministry of Health is in agreement. Exhumation must be performed in the presence of a representative of the Israeli Ministry of Health.

The Ministry of Health, having given the necessary permission for exhumation of remains, must also obtain the consent of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel for exhumation of the remains of persons of the Jewish faith. For exhumation of the remains of persons of the Muslim faith, the consent of the Islamic High Council is needed, and for exhumation of persons of the Christian faith a Church consent is required. The Jewish Burial Society is responsible for exhumation of remains. Remains that are to be shipped out of Israel may require embalming, depending on the stage of decomposition.

Exhumation related charges are as follows:

Ministry of Health – Certificate of Consent and presence of representative at exhumation: $250.00

Exhumation fee $1,500 - $2,000

Approximate freight charges to the U.S. $1,500 - $2,000

Always lame excuses. And we're still not seeing any images.
B.
Revisionists are just the messengers, the impossibility of the "Holocaust" narrative is the message.

User avatar
Kingfisher
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:53 am)

astro3 wrote: I didn't quite catch why they needed to be dug up.


That was so the Russians couldn't find them. You see, if you dig up the best part of a million bodies all you have to do then is get a few people to break up the bones with wooden poles on steel sheets and bob's your uncle. Problem sorted.

astro3
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby astro3 » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:01 pm)

Very learned 2010 article by Thomas Kues about the work of Ms Crolls:
http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2010/11/uk ... a-deniers/

EtienneSC
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka

Postby EtienneSC » 7 years 9 months ago (Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:29 pm)

Kues article above is very informative.
For those who cannot access the BBC radio 4 show, there is this podcast from the University of Birmingham:
http://www.ideaslab.bham.ac.uk/ideaslab_podcast.htm
http://www.ideaslab.bham.ac.uk/MP3s/Car ... odcast.mp3
and this page from the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363

Colls seems to regard "history" as holy writ and thus speaks blithely of the "800,000 murdered by the natsis". She did not say if the whole site was surveyed, but several "pits" were identified, in which she assumed people were buried, then dug up and cremated, then their ashes reburied, as per the story. She has reported her findings to "the authorities" (unnamed) and hopes to do further work. She makes no mention of any plans to publish her work.

Following a suggested method of calculation, the largest pit was 26X17 metres (442 square metres) and from the BBC map it looks like the total pit area was 4 to 5 times that (the shapes are most irregular), giving 1,768 to 2,210 square metres for all pits discovered. The depth was "at least " 4 metres, there is mention of water table issues below 6 metres and the greatest depth mentioned by witnesses is 10 metres, which produces a total volume of 7,072 to 22,100 cubic metres. If these were filled to the brim with corpses at one time at 4 to 6 bodies per cubic metre that would be between 28,288 and 132,600 bodies. She reported nothing to indicate that there were any buried bodies or burned human remains in the pits. There have in addition been previous diggings post 1945.

That is consistent with the "transit camp" hypothesis of Mattogno. It would only be consistent with Hilberg, Arad, etc if there were further pits and some evidence that they contained human remains to a significant extent. This assumes that train or other records indicate substantially more than 132,600 people passing through the gates of the camp. My impressions of UK academia are that to draw the obvious conclusion from this in plain words would be to go out on a limb, which a recent doctoral student might be reluctant to do on this subject, unless they were very sure of their ground and perhaps not then. It's interesting nonetheless and we may hear more of it in years to come. Archaeology and forensic investigation are probably not that ideologically oriented as disciplines (watch this space) and their research seems quite influenced by the availability of research funding.

On another point raised above, plant roots can have too much nutrients as well as too few. There are plants and plants, so to speak and it is quite reasonable that the ones whose seeds happened to fall on the unforested pit might be unable to put down deep roots.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests