Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

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Raymond
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Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby Raymond » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:48 pm)

I often see on revisionist sites a quote from Raul Hilberg in regards to the alleged Babi Yar massacre : "The wartime aerial photos of Kiev provide incontrovertible proof that the so-called historic documentation of the Babi Yar massacre represents fabricated wartime propaganda and post-war martyr mythology. Perhaps the Nazis had, as promised, deported the missing Kievans away from Kiev. If so, their remains and burial sites should be sought elsewhere"

Never is a source provided and when searching for the source, I only get various revisionist sites of which none give a source. I would really like to know when and where Hilberg is said to have said this.

Cheers!
-Ray

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Re: Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby EtienneSC » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:22 pm)

This text appears near Hilberg's name here from a December 2002 article on CODOH, but there are no quotation marks or references to attribute it to Hilberg:
viewtopic.php?p=160
All that is attributed to Hilberg is the view that the atrocities mentioned in Einzatzgruppen reports are exaggerated.
There are various later or undated versions, with indenting & other presentational features, etc. Perhaps the attribution to Hilberg is a myth that has grown up since 2002.

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Re: Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby Hannover » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:24 pm)

I have not seen that quote attributed to Hilberg.

However, for a thorough undressing of Hilberg, I recommend (free .pdf):

http://vho.org/GB/Books/Giant/
HOLOCAUST Handbooks Series, Vol. 3
THE GIANTWITH FEET OF CLAY
RAUL HILBERG AND HIS STANDARD WORK ON THE "HOLOCAUST"

by: JÜRGEN GRAF

- Hannover

table of contents:
Table of Contents (PDF Files)

I - Introduction
II - General Remarks
1 - Consistent Ignoring of Opposing Theses
2 - No Photos, No Description of the Killing Gas Chambers and Gas Wagons
3 - Discrepancy Between the Title and the Content of the Work
III - Remarks on the First Volume
IV - The Lack of Documents on Jewish Annihilation Policy and Its Consequences for the Orthodox Historians
1 - "No Documents Have Survived"
2 - Intentionalists and Functionalists
3 - Raul Hilberg's Errors and Confusions
a - Was There the Ominous Hitler Order or Not?
b - "No Special Agency ... No Special Budget"
c - The Myth of the Code Language
d - Hitler Quote as "Proof" for the Mass Murder
e - Two Insoluble Problems
f - "An Incredible Meeting of Minds"
V -The Massacres on the East Front
1 - The Initial Situation
2 - Hilberg's Version of German Jewish Policy in the Occupied Soviet Territories
3 - On the Likelihood of Hilberg's Description
a - The Claimed Numbers of Victims of the Einsatzgruppen
b - The Refugees Drifting back into the Cities
c - The Purpose and the Course of the Ghettoization
4 - No Valid Evidence For the Claimed Approximately 1.2 Million Murdered Jews On the East Front
5 - Hilberg's Documentary Evidence
6 - Hilberg's "Affidavits" and Other Witness Evidence
7 - Hilberg's Invented "Shooting of Baltic Camp Inmates"
8 - What Really Happened to the Jews in the Occupied Soviet Territories?
VI - The Deportations
1 - The Initial Situation
2 - The Purpose of the Deportations: Labor Deployment versus Extermination
3 - Hilberg's Invented Mass Shootings in Galicia
4 - As Sheep to the Slaughter ...
5 - People "Gassed" in Auschwitz Turn Up In Stutthof
VII - The Killing Centers
1 - The Initial Situation
2 - Hilberg's Imaginary Number of Victims of the "Killing Camps"
3 - Killing Weapons and Removal of Corpses in the "Killing Camps", as Told by Hilberg
a - The "Pure Killing Camps"
b - Majdanek
c - Auschwitz-Birkenau
d - The Holocaust Pope with the Healthy Stomach
4 - Hilberg's Methodology: The Revaluation of All Values
a - Hilberg's Star Witnesses
b - Hilberg's Favorite Jewish Witness: Filip Müller
5 - Hilberg's Description of the Annihilation of the Jews in the Light of Technology and Toxicology
a - Diesel Motors as a Killing Weapon
b - Removal of Corpses in the "Pure Killing Camps": Case Study Belzec
c - Zyklon B as a Killing Weapon
d - The Practical Course of the Gassings in Crematories II and III in Birkenau, as Told by Hilberg
e - The Claimed Incineration of Sometimes 10,000 Corpses Daily in Birkenau
VIII - Hilberg's Statistics on Jewish Victims: Anatomy of a Fraud
1 - The "Three Categories of Victims"
2 - Hungary
3 - Poland
4 - The Soviet Union
5 - Summary
IX - Hilberg's Debacle at the First Zündel Trial
X - Conclusion
- The Opponents
- List of Sources
- List of Names
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby Lohengrin » 7 years 5 months ago (Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:47 pm)

This "quotation" is "second hand". It is from Michael Nikiforuk's article "What Happened at Babi Yar?
Fact vs. Myth"


You can find it on http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/BabiYar/Nikiforuk.html

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Re: Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby Raymond » 7 years 5 months ago (Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:37 pm)

I appreciate the responses. So I can assume that the times I have seen this as an attributed quote is a mistake.

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Re: Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby Moderator » 7 years 5 months ago (Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:44 pm)

Raymond wrote:I appreciate the responses. So I can assume that the times I have seen this as an attributed quote is a mistake.

If I may intervene. Read the link given and see 1. if the quote is there 2. if so, see if it's referenced. Just trying to keep things straight.
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Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Re: Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby Hektor » 1 year 9 months ago (Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:20 am)

Moderator wrote:
Raymond wrote:I appreciate the responses. So I can assume that the times I have seen this as an attributed quote is a mistake.

If I may intervene. Read the link given and see 1. if the quote is there 2. if so, see if it's referenced. Just trying to keep things straight.
M1

All that proves is that other writers have attributed the quote to Hilberg. But I don't see them, e.g. Michael Nikiforuk, giving an exact citation:
https://archive.org/details/WhatHappene ... lNikiforuk

I would like to do better than that.

Fact is however that no credible evidence was ever presented to support the Babi Yar mass shooting of tens of thousands of Jews was ever presented. Instead the public is given "eyewitnesses" like this one:


Description:
David Ayzenberg who was born in 1926 Kiev and was living there during the war years recalls how he together with other Kiev Jews came to a Jewish cemetery near the Babi Yar ravine following German order. Ayzenberg depicts horrors he witnessed there. He tells how he and other Jews were driven to the ravine, how witnessing all the horror he lost consciousness and came to himself only in the ravine underneath the dead bodies and how after several days who crawled out of the ravine and escaped.

http://www.yadvashem.org/untoldstories/ ... te_id=1260

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Re: Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby Zulu » 1 year 9 months ago (Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:12 pm)

Lohengrin wrote:This "quotation" is "second hand". It is from Michael Nikiforuk's article "What Happened at Babi Yar?
Fact vs. Myth"


You can find it on http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/BabiYar/Nikiforuk.html

A research at Google books shows this quote only on that same document published on The Barnes Review Vol.2,p.12.
So, without no other input, it should be taken as dubious coming from Hilberg, at least on these terms.
However there is another document in Russian (?) by Michael Niforuk at archive.org which seems to be more extended then the english text with the addition of photos.
https://archive.org/details/WhatHappene ... actVs.Myth
Is it possible to have its English version?

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Re: Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby Zulu » 1 year 9 months ago (Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:46 pm)

Zulu wrote:A research at Google books shows this quote only on that same document published on The Barnes Review Vol.2,p.12.
So, without no other input, it should be taken as dubious coming from Hilberg, at least on these terms.

Another amazing fact is that a research of "Babi Yar" on Google books of the Raul Hilberg book in Spanish (1455 pages) gives no result.
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=x3 ... ar&f=false

It seems that the English extensive version doesn't allow such research by Google. I found no mention of Babi Yar in the 790 pages version (Extracts of TDOEJ).
So, what have actually written Hilberg on Babi Yar "massacre"?

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Re: Request for Hilberg quote source re: Babi Yar

Postby Hektor » 1 year 9 months ago (Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:59 pm)

Zulu wrote:
Zulu wrote:A research at Google books shows this quote only on that same document published on The Barnes Review Vol.2,p.12.
So, without no other input, it should be taken as dubious coming from Hilberg, at least on these terms.

Another amazing fact is that a research of "Babi Yar" on Google books of the Raul Hilberg book in Spanish (1455 pages) gives no result.
https://books.google.com.br/books?id=x3 ... ar&f=false

It seems that the English extensive version doesn't allow such research by Google. I found no mention of Babi Yar in the 790 pages version (Extracts of TDOEJ).
So, what have actually written Hilberg on Babi Yar "massacre"?


Doesn't Raul Hilberg's "monumental work" have several volumes? I'm also not sure how well the transposition of scanned texts is on google books. So it may fall through the searches that way. But if Hilberg didn't mention Babi Yar in his books, which are supposed to be very extensive summaries, then that may indicate that he didn't find the story believable.

As for the cited article from the Barnes review, the archive.org version doesn't seem to include footnotes. Perfectly possible that the original has though.


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