How many people believe the revisionist account?

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six gun
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How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby six gun » 7 years 6 months ago (Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:27 am)

I don't think anyone on the planet knows the full truth about the "holocaust" but how many believe the revisionist account.

There was a programme on the BBC a few years ago, called Question Time.
The programme is on youtube starting with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iKfrY9l2kY
On there was a Nationalist politician Nick Griffin.
It was a disgrace of a programme as from beginning to end Mr Griffin was attacked like no other panellist had been before.
Another panellist said Nick Griffin had "denied the holocaust."
He said he had seen figures regarding killings in the East and implied he had altered his position without explicitly saying there were no gas chambers.

I am studying the holocaust. It is like wading through treacle most of the time.
It should be quite easy but the subject is so polarised and politicised it is hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.

What is clear to me is the traditional account is wrong. Very wrong.
Both factually wrong and morally wrong.

If I mention the fact the holocaust was other than the traditional account, I am rapidly met by quite nasty replies.
If I say Winston Churchill (a British hero) was a war criminal, which by any measure he was, I find I get no response.
No-one is interested to stick up for him, many probably accept I have information that shows he was.

I wonder how many people even know about the "true" account of the camps.
I only discovered about this very recently.
I suspect only a tiny percent of people know. Some might have heard there are Fascist types out there who deny the holocaust happened but do not know anything beyond that.

The holocaust account might well collapse like a house of cards but I suspect the vast majority of people do not know this.
Does anyone have evidence the number of converts is growing?

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby Inquisitor » 7 years 6 months ago (Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:01 am)

I think the sheer volume of material and discussion going on on the net, or elsewhere, the number(and quality of) of books being published, and the like are all empirical evidence of an increased interest in and at least some(if not full) acceptance of Revisionism and Revisionist arguments. That said, it seems clear the vast majority of people are still true-believers of the orthodox tale, and I suspect won't be swayed by ANY evidence, not matter of incontrovertable, how rational, how thorough, etc.

I suspect some of those doing the "heavy-lifting" (aka the research, publishing, etc.) could shed some more tangible light on this question.

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 7 years 6 months ago (Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:22 pm)

What seems most shocking to this writer about American belief in the hoax is that Americans want to believe it. Their faith in the hoax represents deep-rooted racial prejudice and jealousy vis a vis the Germans. If America's vast ignorati didn't have the holocaust hoax, they would have to invent something else. It is good old racism albeit in a less obvious form; not black versus white as in the past but in another form which is politically correct, especially to the Jews who are America's real masters. The facts and counter-arguments are mere nuisances. How dare anyone say it didn't happen? Faith in the hoax gives the brain-dead mobs of democracy a warm, righteous feeling as they glorify their truly horrendous and shameful past and prepare to kill and destroy new enemies with the angels in heaven helping them.

A new world war is emerging, this time with Iran. One major reason for that war is that the Iranian leadership rejects the holocaust hoax. They must be insane? As Hillary Clinton has explained: we must not let another holocaust happen. We will soon have an actual war against holocaust revisionism—but it is a war that the US and Israel will ultimately lose because the logic of revisionism cannot be destroyed by bombs or war or even stopped indefinitely by outright terror as in Germany. Even the Germans are waking up!

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby ganglere » 7 years 6 months ago (Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:13 pm)

Evening Gentlemen!

I believe that it is difficult to establish, exactly how many there are that has come to a revisionist standpoint. For one thing, how many has come to this (revisionist) conclusion, but for one reason or another cannot go public?

I myself believed in the orthodox account just three years ago, until I took the trouble to research the matter more thoroughly. I have come across basically three types of people: 1. The true belivers, for them the holocaust is a literally gospel, and no factual information whatsoever can make the slightest impression. 2. The conformists, who believe in the holocaust because his friends and neighbours does so, and he will at least pay lip service to the orthodox account, even if he secretly doubts it.

3. The openminded and curious (bless them!) Who can discuss the matter calmly and factually.

I believe that the reason for the present success for the orthodox account, basically comes from furious and successful marketing I mean, to spread a view on any historical event, don't write a two-thousand page book, because no-one would read it. Instead make a movie and spread it world-wide!

Just my reflection on the subject.

All the Best!

Ganglere

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby six gun » 7 years 6 months ago (Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:16 pm)

There are obvious difficulties in much of Europe with the laws preventing discussion of the subject.
As long as you keep your head down I guess you can study the subject but like I did I could not talk to a friend about it in the pub and have no fear something bad might happen to me.

I am not sure if this is a positive or negative thing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... Baker.html

The holocaust is not really a big issue in the UK. There has never been a big Jewish population and if it weren't for the muck Hollyhoax produces you could very easily never hear it mentioned from one year to the next.
It is no part of British history, whether it were true or not.
British children would be better off learning about British history and the lies British politicians have spewed out over the centuries instead of this sick Zionist naval gazing exercise.

Holocaust charities dismissed Kenneth Baker's suggestion. What a surprise.
The ADL gangsters keep the holocaust alive - it is all they have. In the UK, give it another generation and it will not even be a memory.
I would like this lie outed rather than being forgotten.

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 7 years 6 months ago (Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:36 pm)

six gun wrote:I would like this lie outed rather than being forgotten.


Absolutely. Stick to your guns on that one, six gun.
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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby jeffersonian » 7 years 6 months ago (Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:06 pm)

Throughout history, any protected idea turned out to be seriously flawed. :D You can say that safely anywhere, except in the farthest reaches of the vilest dictatorship.

There's a new book you might like, by Counter-Currents Publishing, titled Some Thoughts on Hitler. Here is a tasty quote: "Jews have, to borrow Wiesel's language, successfully mystified and sanctified their Holocaust, removing it from history and fashioning it into a racial weapon...." I'm not certain whether Vinson fully rejects "the H" or not.

I believe that the majority of people are ready to question something large-scale. That desire for inquest can be turned toward the WWII stuff. And that's why there is such a desperate shriek of Holocaust this, Holocaust that, new museums, endless articles, etc. I have heard that a surprising number of people doubt the 911 story. That illustrates that all the king's horses and all the king's men can't convince the people to stampede.

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby mdmguyon » 7 years 6 months ago (Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:40 pm)

six gun wrote:There are obvious difficulties in much of Europe with the laws preventing discussion of the subject.


My impression is that the laws against revisionism have increased the number of revisionists, even if not the number of those who are "out."

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby jeffersonian » 7 years 6 months ago (Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:41 am)

I think the main thing is to just keep going. Nobody knows what the 'tipping point' is (the author of that book is a Jew, by the way!), nobody knows what will lead to large scale change. Imagine being a German in 1924, 1928, 1931. How would you know that soon your country would be happy and productive? People are a bit more isolated these days, with creature comforts everywhere. But more and more, I hope that people in the traditionally western--dare I say White--countries will recognize that it is unsafe to go out, that our land is being filled up with aliens of every stripe, whom we are expected to subsidize. We are expected to trade our future for their present. So who knows what issue will be the tipping point, but, the thing to do is to press on. Research, read, focus, just do whatever you know how to do and feel able to do, to wake people up to the fact that we are living in a bubble.

A fascinating school of thought to consider is the work of Bob Whitaker, which is focused on getting White people on a consistent message. It's a way of getting us to focus our word patterns, so that there is cohesion and eventual exercise of power. To some extent even revisionism is part of the problem only in the sense that it becomes another word debate to slow us down while the money and demographic tricks continue to unfold.

My opinion is that revisionism is something that will motivate a few people now, who can then be better activists in the western countries, and who, after we regain our direction as a people, will be well-positioned to explain to everyone just what in the heck happened over a period of 70 years. So never think that revisionism won't be worthwhile or critical, even if the masses don't seem to be ready for it. Even if they can't appreciate the error and significance of 'the Holocaust', eventually awareness of the indoctrination process of 'the Holocaust' will be a firm prophylactic against degeneration--exactly the opposite of what the 'elites' have hoped.

And take heart, also, in the fact that there is widespread doubt about the holy collapse of the twin towers.

And never waste more than a moment or two on internal squabbles. Everyone is doing great work. There is much progress. I really think that the perception of Hitler is ripe for change. After Weber's review of Stolfi's new book about Hitler, I bought it the same evening. Yeager's show never fails to encourage me. We've been had, and we're waking up!

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby SKcz » 7 years 6 months ago (Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:08 pm)

The revisionists won long time ago, problem is censorship and general blockade of revisionist research so peoples have no clue about revisionist research. This is the main problem together with lies, laws and hate which are spread from orthodox sources about revisionists. I think that picture below illustrate it quite good.

Only debate, that´s all.
Image

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 7 years 6 months ago (Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:17 pm)

Excellent answer, SKcz. Couldn't be better.
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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby Kladderadatsch » 7 years 6 months ago (Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:20 pm)

Hans wrote:I predict that in the Western countries, the number of people believing in the Revisionist account will stay as low as it is also for the next decades, not because of Revisionism's political background and not because of legislation in certain countries, but simply because Revisionists cannot deliver any founded account on the Holocaust. The middle East is excluded from the prediction because of obvious political and ideological motivation to deny atrocities committed on Jews.

To have some statistics from one of the core countries of Revisionism, Austria, in 2009 about 5% of the Austrians above 14 years agreed with the statement that the Holocaust is not proven. The figure was declining since 1979 (15%) and even the Revisionist spring around the Rudolf Report in the 90s could only temporarily stabilize the figure, which is again on decline in this century.

[Han's post from which this quote by Kladderadatsch was taken has been deleted because of Hans' repetition ad nauseum of claims which have been thoroughly addressed in numerous threads in which he participated and then avoided challenges. However I have left this quote from that post since Kladderadatsch has chosen to address it. M1]

Well, Hans, this is good news indeed!

If public awareness of revisionism remains so low "not because of Revisionism's political background and not because of legislation in certain countries, but simply because Revisionists cannot deliver any founded account on the Holocaust," that means that there is no longer any reason to criminalize its public expression in those "certain countries" you refer to. After all, if "Revisionists cannot deliver any founded account on the Holocaust" then there's no reason to punish the poor, benighted fools for expressing their beliefs: no one's going to be convinced by them anyway.

And the laws are a bad idea for other reasons too. For one thing, they may create a "forbidden fruit" effect, whereby impressionable people are drawn to revisionist beliefs simply because they are forbidden. For another, they may create the impression that the officially legislated, orthodox historiography has something to hide, or lead to speculations as to who might benefit from the existing restrictions on freedom of expression, and why.

But with your finding that "Revisionists cannot deliver any founded account on the Holocaust" all such concerns can now be swept aside, along with the laws themselves. With complete freedom to discuss and debate the issues publicly, no doubt Austrian society can soon bring that number of misguided deniers down to 0%.

:lol:

Mind you, an alternate theory as to why the GfK polling data finds such low (and decreasing!) numbers for "Holocaust Denial" in Austria might look at the question of whether citizens there actually have access to the relevant material, and the freedom to discuss and debate it without fear of legal harrassment and draconian punishment.

Background from German Wikipedia:

In Österreich wurde Holocaustleugnung schon 1945 durch das Verbotsgesetz 1947 als NS-Wiederbetätigung unter Strafe gestellt. Nach der letzten Novellierung dieses Gesetzes von 1992 kann mit einer Freiheitsstrafe von einem bis zu 20 Jahren bestraft werden, „wer öffentlich den nationalsozialistischen Völkermord oder andere nationalsozialistische Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit leugnet, gröblich verharmlost, gutheißt oder zu rechtfertigen sucht.“ Damit stellt Österreich weltweit das höchstmögliche Strafmaß für dieses Delikt in Aussicht. Auch werden Holocaustleugner anders als in anderen Ländern dort tatsächlich angeklagt; eine sogenannte Bagatellgrenze schließt das Gesetz bewusst aus.

In Austria, Holocaust denial was placed under the threat of criminal punishment as a form of "reactivation of National Socialism" as early as 1945 through the Prohibition Act 1947. According to the latest ammendment of the law in 1992, anyone "who . . . openly denies, grossly minimizes, approves or tries to excuse the National Socialist genocide or other National Socialist crimes against humanity" is punished with a sentence of from one to as many as twenty years' imprisonment. Austria thus presents the highest degree of punishment for this offence worldwide. In practice, Holocaust deniers are also prosecuted differently there than in other lands; the law consciously excludes any so called de minimis limit.

[Note: A de minimis limit (German, Bagatellgrenze) is a clause stipulating that an offence must exceed a certain limit (of property damaged or stolen, of injury, of contraband seized, etc.) before it is prosecuted under the relevant law. From Latin de minimis non curat lex, "the law does not concern itself with trifles."]


The relevant law:

§ 3 h. Nach § 3g wird auch bestraft, wer in einem Druckwerk, im Rundfunk oder in einem anderen Medium oder wer sonst öffentlich auf eine Weise, daß es vielen Menschen zugänglich wird, den nationalsozialistischen Völkermord oder andere nationalsozialistische Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit leugnet, gröblich verharmlost, gutheißt oder zu rechtfertigen sucht.

§ 3 h. Anyone who, in a printed work, by radio or some other broadcast medium, or otherwise publicly in any way which may be accessible to numerous people, denies, grossly minimizes, approves or tries to excuse the National Socialist genocide or other National Socialist crimes against humanity, will also be punished according to the provisions of § 3g [stipulating sentences of 1 to 10 years, and up to 20 for cases of "particular dangerousness of the offender or the offending activity" (besonderer Gefährlichkeit des Täters oder der Betätigung), for various other acts of "reactivation of National Socialism"].


1993 decision of the Supreme Court of Austria on the discussion of evidence in prosecutions under section § 3 h:

Der Bundesverfassungsgesetzgeber hat . . . ex lege klargestellt, daß der nationalsozialistische Völkermord und die anderen nationalsozialistischen Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit im Strafverfahren keiner weiteren beweismäßigen Erörterung bedürfen, woraus folgt, daß dieses Beweisthema einer Beweisführung entrückt ist. Solcherart ergibt sich aber aus § 3 h VerbotsG verfahrensrechtlich der Sache nach ein Beweisthemenverbot in Ansehung der Tatsache des nationalsozialistischen Völkermordes und der anderen nationalsozialistischen Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit; eine Beweisaufnahme über diese Tatsachen kommt mithin nicht in Betracht. An diese (hier sogar verfassungsgesetzlich vorgegebene) Prozeßrechtslage sind die Strafgerichte gebunden.

The Federal Legislature has . . . made clear by law [ex lege] that the National Socialist genocide and other National Socialist crimes against humanity require no further evidentiary discussion in criminal proceedings, from which it follows that evidence on this theme is excluded from the presentation of evidence. Likewise, however, section § 3 h of the Prohibition Act leads, procedurally, to a prohibition of lines of evidence regarding the factuality of the National Socialist genocide and other National Socialist crimes against humanity; any admission of evidence about these facts therefore will not be considered. The criminal courts are bound by these (here indeed constitutionally specified) procedural constraints.


So let's see if I've got this right:

You're not allowed to talk about it or write about it or debate it publicly in any way, under penalty of incarceration for up to twenty years, and in the event you are ever prosecuted, you may not present evidence supporting your "heretical" beliefs in your own defense at trial . . .

. . . and yet despite all that, the citizens of Austria are well informed about Revisionism, and have freely concluded against it "not because of Revisionism's political background and not because of legislation in certain countries, but simply because Revisionists cannot deliver any founded account on the Holocaust."

How could they possibly know?

:lol:
Last edited by Kladderadatsch on Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby Hektor » 7 years 6 months ago (Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:43 pm)

Kladderadatsch wrote:....If public awareness of revisionism remains so low "not because of Revisionism's political background and not because of legislation in certain countries, but simply because Revisionists cannot deliver any founded account on the Holocaust," that means that there is no longer any reason to criminalize its public expression in those "certain countries" you refer to. After all, if "Revisionists cannot deliver any founded account on the Holocaust" then there's no reason to punish the poor, benighted fools for expressing their beliefs: no one's going to be convinced by them anyway.

And the laws are a bad idea for other reasons too. For one thing, they may create a "forbidden fruit" effect, whereby impressionable people are drawn to revisionist beliefs simply because they are forbidden. For another, they may create the impression that the officially legislated, orthodox historiography has something to hide, or lead to speculations as to who might benefit from the existing restrictions on freedom of expression, and why.
....

That's if those presenting the statistical figures, really believe them :D .
For any interpretation of believe figures. Now just assume that the numbers of people disbelieving the Holocaust decreased since world war two. What does that mean? It could mean essentially two things:
1. The story wasn't believed immediately after the war, because it conflicted with first hand experiences of people.
2. Since virtually nobody claimed to have themselves experienced it, neither did investigate itself, stronger indoctrination in media and schools propped up the figures of Holocaust believers.

I for my part don't take those figures seriously. I believe that a majority of people that ever heard of the Holocaust believes it to be true. The more they've investigated the subject themselves, the lower that figure gets however. And that's the reason that the attempts to repress Holocaust Revisionism will continue.

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby Clem » 7 years 6 months ago (Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:07 pm)

six gun:

The holocaust account might well collapse like a house of cards



Well, the rodoh forum has just vanished into cyberspace.

That sure is a good sign.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

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Re: How many people believe the revisionist account?

Postby rerevisionist » 7 years 6 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:17 am)

I think the main thing is to just keep going. Nobody knows what the 'tipping point' is (the author of that book is a Jew, by the way!), nobody knows what will lead to large scale change. Imagine being a German in 1924, 1928, 1931. How would you know that soon your country would be happy and productive?


Well-worded, Jeffersonian. Many people get discouraged. But do your best.


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