question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

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Ilikerealhistory
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question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Ilikerealhistory » 7 years 10 months ago (Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:29 pm)

One what page does it say that Elie Wiesel was given the choice of whether to stay in Auschwitz and be liberated by the Soviets, or go back to Germany?

This would be in the 2006 edition.

I did a search of this forum, but found nothing.

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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Hannover » 7 years 10 months ago (Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:14 pm)

Ilikerealhistory, this damning fact may well have been deleted from the 2006 edition, but I'm afraid your search here was less than thorough.

From:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5929&p=40831
yours truly posted this.
Here's more on the fact that Jews were given a choice to stay and wait for the Soviets, or retreat with the SS ... most chose to retreat with the SS.


Was Auschwitz Liberated or Merely Occupied by the Red Army?
by Germar Rudolf
[email protected]

Jan. 26, 2005

In the book for which Elie Wiesel is most famous, namely "Night" (Bantam
paperback edition, 1960), which is required reading in many public schools across
the globe, Wiesel paints a horrendous picture of life in Auschwitz from April
1944 to January 1945 when he was there. Although many hundreds of thousands of Jews were supposedly gassed there during this time, Wiesel makes no mention of gassings or gas chambers anywhere in his book, as Jürgen Graf and Robert Faurisson have pointed out to us.

(Cf. the table compiled by J. Graf at the end of R. Faurisson, "Witnesses to
the Gas Chambers of Auschwitz," in: G. Rudolf (ed.), "Dissecting the
Holocaust," 2nd. ed., Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago, IL, 2003, p. 144, http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndwitness.html.)

He does however claim to have seen flames from the crematory chimneys and Dr. Mengele wearing a monocle. Both claims are clearly lies, since the Auschwitz crematories, fired with coke, could not produce flames that could travel trough 15 m of flue and 30 m of chimney (see Carlo Mattogno, "Flames and Smoke from the Chimneys of Crematoria," "The Revisionist" 2(1) (2004), pp. 73-78, http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Mattogno73-78.html.).

When the Russians were about to overrun Auschwitz in January 1945, both Elie and his father "chose" to go west with the retreating 'Nazis' and SS rather than be "liberated" by America's greatest ally. They could have told the whole world about Auschwitz within days--but, both Elie and his father as well as countless thousands of other Jews chose instead to trek west with the 'Nazis' on foot at night in the middle of one of the coldest winters and continue working for the defense of the Reich thereafter. In effect, they chose to collaborate.

Some of Wiesel's exact words in "Night" are (p. 78 ):
"The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for
ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. 'Well, what shall we do, father?' He was silent. 'Let's be evacuated with the others,' I told him."


Elie's tale in this regard is corroborated by other "survivor" accounts
including that of Primo Levi. In Levi's book "Survival in Auschwitz," we have his words for January 17th, 1945:

"It was not a question of reasoning: I would probably also have followed the instinct of the flock if I had not felt so weak: fear is supremely contagious, and its immediate reaction is to make one try to run away."

But he's talking here about running away with the 'Nazis'--and not 'Nazis'
who were mere rank and file party members but supposedly the worst of the worst. He's talking here about running away with the same 'Nazis' and SS who had supposedly carried out the greatest imaginable mass murders of Jews and others in the entire history of the universe. He's talking about running away with the people who supposedly did the actual killings of thousands daily for several years. But, according to his own words he would probably have gone with them nonetheless, except that he was not feeling good that day; he was feeling weak.
The "fear" that he overcame was clearly fear of the Russians and not the
'Nazis;' there is no mention of fear of what the 'Nazis' and SS might do when the evacuees entered the forest or sometime later.

The choices that were made here in January 1945 are enormously important. In the entire history of Jewish suffering at the hands of gentiles what moment in time could possibly be more dramatic than this precious moment when Jews could choose between, on the one hand, liberation by the Soviets with the chances to tell the whole world about the evil 'Nazis' and to help bring about their defeat--and the other choice of going with the 'Nazi' mass murderers and to con tinue working for them and to help preserve their evil regime. In the vast majority of cases, they chose to go with the 'Nazis'.

The momentous choice brings Shakespeare's Hamlet to mind:

"To remain, or not to remain; that is the question:" to remain and be liberated by Soviet troops and risk their slings and rifles in order to tell the whole world about the outrageous 'Nazis'--or, take arms and feet against a sea of cold and darkness in order to collaborate with the very same outrageous 'Nazis'. Oh what heartache--ay there's the rub! Thus conscience does make cowards of us all.


"In the entire history of Jewish suffering at the hands of gentiles ..." Of course one has to now wonder how accurate those claims of "suffering at the hands of gentiles" really were/are. Another reason why Jewish Supremacists don't want a discussion of the absurd 'holocaust' tales.

- Hannover

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 7 years 10 months ago (Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:31 pm)

Hannover wrote:Ilikerealhistory, this damning fact may well have been deleted from the 2006 edition, but I'm afraid your search was less than thorough.


Of course it was not deleted from the 2006 edition. It's on page 82, Marion Wiesel translation. But don't make too much out of it. He makes clear all the inmates in the hospital believed and were rumoring that the SS would never leave them alive for the Russians to find. They believed that once the others left, they would all be killed. So it was the best or worst of two evils. That's how the story goes, anyway.

Why is that part always left out?
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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Hannover » 7 years 10 months ago (Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:41 pm)

Carolyn Yeager:
He makes clear all the inmates in the hospital believed and were rumoring that the SS would never leave them alive for the Russians to find. They believed that once the others left, they would all be killed. So it was the best or worst of two evils.

Carolyn, did he say that from the beginning? If not, do you know when and in what publication Wiesel started saying that?

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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 7 years 10 months ago (Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:05 pm)

Hannover wrote:Carolyn Yeager:
He makes clear all the inmates in the hospital believed and were rumoring that the SS would never leave them alive for the Russians to find. They believed that once the others left, they would all be killed. So it was the best or worst of two evils.

Carolyn, did he say that from the beginning? If not, do you know when and in what publication Wiesel started saying that?

- Hannover


Okay. Original Night, page 84.
Two days after my operation, there was a rumor going round the camp that the front had suddenly drawn nearer. (85) The Red Army, they said, was advancing on Buna; it was only a matter of hours now.
We were already accustomed to rumors of this kind. It was not the first time a false prophet had foretold to us peace-on-earth, negotiations-with-the-Red-Cross-for-our-release, or other false rumors ... And often we believed them. It was an injection of morphine.
But this time these prophecies seemed more solid. During these last few nights, we had heard the guns in the distance.
My neighbork the faceless one, said:
"Don't let yourself be fooled with illusions. Hitler has made it very clear that he will annihilate all the Jews before the clock strikes twelve, before they can hear the last stroke."
I burst out:
"What does it matter to you? Do we have to regard Hitler as a prophet?"
His glazed, faded eyes looked at me. ... blabla
[...]
At four o'clock on the afternoon of the same day [...]
"tomorrow, immediately after nightfall, the camp will set out. Block after block. Patients will stay in the infirmary. They will not be evacuated."
This news made us think. Were the SS going to leave hundreds of prisoners to strut about in the hospital blocks, waiting for their liberators? Were they going to let the Jews hear all the twelfth stroke sound? Obviously not.
"All the invalids will be summarily killed," said the faceless one. "And sent to the crematory in a final batch."
"The camp is certain to be mined," said another. "The moment the evacuation's over, it'll blow up."


He goes to look for his father. "What shall we do?" and so on.
p. 87: I learned after the war the fate of those who had stayed behind in the hospital. They were quite simply liberated by the Russians two days after the evacuation.


He writes more about it in his memoir All Rivers Run to the Sea. Naturally, it's just an explanation so he won't be accused of preferring the Nazis. But this is in Un di velt hot geshvign too, even more detailed that they wouldn't survive if they stayed behind.
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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby SevenUp » 7 years 10 months ago (Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:33 pm)

By remarkable coincidence, Primo Levi and Otto Frank, Anne's fatther, were also in Auschwitz when the Soviet army approached, band both were in hospitals ! They were given the option of staying and did stay. They were liberated by the Soviets.

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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:28 am)

Pro-Nazi Collaboration by Elie Wiesel and hundreds of thousands of Jews

Although ELIE WIESEL is today the poster-boy of the “Holocaust,” he clearly “chose” to collaborate with the Nazis in January 1945 rather than be “liberated” by Soviet troops advancing on Auschwitz. Although he has become a kind of rock star at Davos economics conferences with his “moral voice,” even singing Sholom Aleichem in Yiddish, he never attends the, now annual, Auschwitz liberation celebrations in Auschwitz in January. The fees are not as good, perhaps?

According to Night, it was in January 1945, just before the first Auschwitz “liberation” event, that both Elie and his dad trekked west with the Nazis in a terrible winter on foot by their own choice and assisted the Nazis during the last months of the war. They had both, just as many tens of thousands of other Jews, chosen in effect to c-o-l-l-a-b-o-r-a-t-e with the Nazis and work (no free ride waiting in a Gasthaus) to defend the Reich. Some of Wiesel's exact words in Night, paperback edition (Bantam Books, 1960) page 78 are:

“The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. ‘Well, what shall we do, father?’ He was silent. ‘Let's be evacuated with the others,’ I told him.”

Elie's tale in this regard is corroborated by other “survivor” accounts including that of PRIMO LEVI. In Levi's book Survival in Auschwitz, we have his words for January 17th, 1945:

“It was not a question of reasoning: I would probably also have followed the instinct of the flock if I had not felt so weak: fear is supremely contagious, and its immediate reaction is to make one try to run away.”

The Jews on “Schindler's List,” just thirty miles to the east of Auschwitz, also chose to collaborate and went west eagerly also rather than hang back, or hide, or go east to be “liberated” by the Soviets. Their last months of the war were spent in what is now the Czech Republic making ammunition (all supposedly “defective and useless” by their postwar accounts) for the Nazis until they were “liberated” by Soviet troops in May of 1945. Of course, they could have been “liberated” six months earlier and put to work making ammunition for the Allies–but they had all chosen to collaborate with the Nazis instead.

The vast majority of the people who entered Auschwitz “survived” because there was absolutely NO extermination program. No one had even tried to kill them. Clearly, the Nazis could NOT possibly have been mass murderers as many of those same Jews alleged, WIESEL especially, after the war.

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The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:25 am)

And every member of a Sonderkomando who collaborated in murdering his fellow Jews? OK. You and I don't believe the story, but the mainstream, which does, makes heroes of these people. The courts, which accept the story as a "fact of common knowledge" should have them in the dock with Demjanjuk (who, of course shouldn't be there, but that's another story).

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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:28 am)

Selective quotes is just what we don't like about those who argue from the "believers" point of view. So to use your selective quotes against their selective quotes becomes an endless shouting match with no resolution.

We know the importance of context. When F.P. Berg writes...
both Elie and his dad [...] assisted the Nazis during the last months of the war. They had both [...] chosen in effect to c-o-l-l-a-b-o-r-a-t-e with the Nazis and work [...] to defend the Reich.

... he is putting his own interpretation on this choice and ignoring other parts in the story. And it is a story! Not a "record of fact" as it has now been transformed into.

It's not tenable to accept some parts of the story as true (as helpful to your own argument) and other parts as not true (because they're patently false). The whole book has to be accepted or rejected; otherwise we have different people accepting/rejecting different parts of it -- the confusion that has been reigning since the book was published in English in 1960. This is a real problem in popular revisionism, and there is no subject that more people believe they are an expert on than Elie Wiesel.
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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:47 am)

What is Carolyn Yeager talking about? What "context" have I missed, Carolyn?

Read the book yourself, Carolyn, and "carefully." Elie clearly did "choose" by his own admission to go west on foot in the middle of winter with Nazis, the very same Nazis who had supposedly been murdering Jews by the thousands every day in Auschwitz. Can anyone seriously imagine that the Jews would spend the last months of the war simply waiting idly in barracks for the war to end. Not even the Schindler List story claims that.

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:24 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:What is Carolyn Yeager talking about? What "context" have I missed, Carolyn?

Read the book yourself, Carolyn, and "carefully."


I know the book backwards and forwards. Here's what's wrong with what you wrote:
both Elie and his dad [...] assisted the Nazis during the last months of the war. They had both [...] chosen in effect to c-o-l-l-a-b-o-r-a-t-e with the Nazis and work [...] to defend the Reich.


They didn't "assist" the Nazis (with what?); they didn't collaborate with the Nazis, nor did they work to defend the Reich. When I used to hear you say this (before I had read Night) I got the impression that Elie Wiesel had done special work for the Germans, that he had a definite job and a good relationship with individual Nazis, and that was how he saved his life. That was the impression you gave. But there is nothing like that in the book. In the book, Father dies upon reaching Buchenwald and Eliezer lays around in the "children's block" doing nothing. They were only burdens on the Nazis.

People who actually read the book are not going to be affected by that argument.
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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:17 pm)

Most, and possibly all, of the material in that first post of this thread comes from my 2002 essay "Poison Gas Ueber Alles." http://www.nazigassings.com/poisongas.html

Carolyn Yeager is nit-picking regarding the meaning of what I wrote about Elie Wiesel. I suggest people look at the version of Night, copyright 1960, that I referred to. The newest versions may well have changed the passages that I focused on--and with good reason: they undermine the Elie Wiesel mythology.

On what basis is Carolyn convinced that Elie did no work at all for the Nazis in the last months of the war after Elie finished his trip away from Auschwitz? Is it because Elie does not mention doing any work? Does he specifically say he did no work, anywhere, at all? If and when a Nazi ordered him to do something--like work, was he determined to refuse to do it. Of course, not. So, are we therefore to believe the Nazis fed Elie and gave him shelter during the last few months without getting anything in return. That would have been awfully nice of those fiendish Nazis. It also undermines the myth of poor, suffering Elie Wiesel.

The fact is, according to Elie's own words, he and his father could have remained in the hospital at Auschwitz as the Soviets arrived--but, both of them CHOSE instead to trek west with the Nazis. If some British soldiers on the beaches at Dunkirk in June of 1940 had turned down an offer to ride a boat back to merry-olde-England and chose instead to be captives of the Germans--I dare say that would have certainly been regarded as c-o-l-l-a-b-o-r-a-t-i-o-n or worse, as desertion.

On page 78 of NIGHT (Bantram paperback edition copyright 1960) we have: "We could both stay in the hospital where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him entered as a patient or a nurse. Or else we could follow the others."

We also know that Elie was NOT worried about being killed by the Nazis in the hospital prior to their departure because he tells us at the top of page 78: "As for me, I was not thinking about death,..."

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Carolyn Yeager » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:23 pm)

Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:Most, and possibly all, of the material in that first post of this thread comes from my 2002 essay "Poison Gas Ueber Alles." http://www.nazigassings.com/poisongas.html

Carolyn Yeager is nit-picking regarding the meaning of what I wrote about Elie Wiesel. I suggest people look at the version of Night, copyright 1960, that I referred to. The newest versions may well have changed the passages that I focused on--and with good reason: they undermine the Elie Wiesel mythology.

On what basis is Carolyn convinced that Elie did no work at all for the Nazis in the last months of the war after Elie finished his trip away from Auschwitz? Is it because Elie does not mention doing any work? Does he specifically say he did no work, anywhere, at all? If and when a Nazi ordered him to do something--like work, was he determined to refuse to do it. Of course, not. So, are we therefore to believe the Nazis fed Elie and gave him shelter during the last few months without getting anything in return. That would have been awfully nice of those fiendish Nazis. It also undermines the myth of poor, suffering Elie Wiesel.

The fact is, according to Elie's own words, he and his father could have remained in the hospital at Auschwitz as the Soviets arrived--but, both of them CHOSE instead to trek west with the Nazis. If some British soldiers on the beaches at Dunkirk in June of 1940 had turned down an offer to ride a boat back to merry-olde-England and chose instead to be captives of the Germans--I dare say that would have certainly been regarded as c-o-l-l-a-b-o-r-a-t-i-o-n or worse, as desertion.

On page 78 of NIGHT (Bantram paperback edition copyright 1960) we have: "We could both stay in the hospital where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him entered as a patient or a nurse. Or else we could follow the others."

We also know that Elie was NOT worried about being killed by the Nazis in the hospital prior to their departure because he tells us at the top of page 78: [b][i][color=#0000FF]"As for me, I was not thinking about death,..."


I may be nit-picking but Fritz is jumping around all over the place, tying together things that don't go together.

As well as posting material directly from his 2002 essay on "Poison Gas" onto this thread is why it was not a good fit. Ten years old, for one thing. Shows how much time you spend thinking about what you post here, Fritz. :P

FYI, I always use the original Stella Rodway English translation unless otherwise stated. Page 114: [after Father's death] I had to stay at Buchenwald until April eleventh. [...] I was transferred to the children's block [...] I spent my days in a state of total idleness. And I had but one desire--to eat. blabla
In the 10 days from arrival to Father's death, Father was very sick and Eliezer spent all his time looking after him, when he wasn't taking mandatory showers or going for food. These newcomers were in quarantine anyway, in the "Little Camp." That's all there is. This whole part is a very short portion of the book. He talks a little about the liberation, that's it. If you can make out that he assisted the Nazis and defended the Reich from that, then you're another Elie Wiesel. Congratulations! :D
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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby Friedrich Paul Berg » 7 years 10 months ago (Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:54 pm)

It may be that Elie was idle in those last months, but I don't believe it. He was still under German control in Nazi captivity and everyone in Germany was expected to help defend the Reich if they were healthy enough to work. That is just a small part of the c-o-n-t-e-x-t that Carolyn has chosen to totally ignore. No doubt, Elie would not like to admit today that he had ever done any useful work for the Germans; that would not fit the image he is trying to promote. If the Germans had ordered him to help make handgrenades or dig anti-tank ditches, that is what he would have done.

Since Elie had freely chosen to remain under Nazi control rather than be "liberated" by the Soviets, I choose to regard that as COLLABORATION! He could have helped the Soviets fight the Germans--but instead, he and his father chose to remain under the control of the supposed greatest mass murderers of Jews in the entire history of the world. It is a story that really does NOT make sense.

I don't get accused of being another Elie Wiesel very often. Lie down and take a rest, Carolyn.

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Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!
The Holocaust story is a hoax because 1) no one was killed by the Nazis in gas chambers, 2) the total number of Jews who died in Nazi captivity is miniscule compared to what is alleged.

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Re: question about Elie Wiesel's NIGHT ???

Postby mdmguyon » 7 years 10 months ago (Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:00 am)

Carolyn Yeager wrote:The whole book has to be accepted or rejected

Truth and falsehood are too mixed for that to be feasible.
otherwise we have different people accepting/rejecting different parts of it -- the confusion that has been reigning since the book was published in English in 1960.

That's the price that anyone who puts truth first must pay. The only alternative to such "confusion" is religious fundamentalism.


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