How many Jews were Under German control?

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Hebden
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:17 am
Location: Here and there, mostly there

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:43 pm)

An extract from a 1956 article by Mr. Leon Poliakov, appended to a reprinted edition of Harvest of Hate:

Finally, it should be noted that a British researcher, Gerald Reitlinger, in his work The Final Solution (London, 1953 and Cranbury. N. J. , 1968), questions the total of 6 million. He asserts that many of the figures were deliberately inflated for psychological reasons - both by the Nazis, who were motivated by an urge to boast of their crimes, and by the Jews, who were influenced by the pessimism typical of victims. He therefore strongly questions some of the figures given by the Nazis. By systematically re-examining the figures given for each country, adopting the lowest figure in each case by way of hypothesis, he arrives at a total between a minimum of 4,200,000 and a maximum of 4,600,000. His heaviest corrections are in the figures for Eastern Poland and the Soviet Union proper. In the case of these two regions, estimates are complicated by population movements during and after the war, and by the total absence of reliable statistical data on the present Jewish population there.

In our opinion, one who devotes time and effort to making such corrections solely on the basis of psychological considerations must be motivated by similar considerations himself. In Reitlinger's case this could be explained by the typical British penchant for understatement. No doubt there always will be some uncertainty about the exact total of victims claimed by the racist madness. However, the estimated data available are sufficiently abundant and reliable for us to be able accept, as the most probable numer (sic), the "classic" total of 6 million.


'Are you denying the Holocaust?'
'No.'
'Well, are you revising the Holocaust?'
'No.'
'So what are you doing?'
'We're understating the Holocaust.'
'You're understanding the...'
'No, we're understating it.'
'Oh.'

montague
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:57 am

Postby montague » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:28 pm)

Sanning based much of his work on Reitlinger's.

Sanning come up with the total of 2.7 million Jews in occupied Europe (which includes Western Poland). On top of that, he came up with 731,000 in the occupied portions of the USSR. That makes 3.5 million all up...

One of the reasons why the USSR number is so low is that he believes that 80% of the Jews in the Western USSR were deported to the Urals and Siberia, along with millions of other Soviets (and Polish citizens).

Even if one thinks that Sanning's estimate of 80% is too high - Graf thinks it is - the number of deportations would have thinned out Jewish numbers considerably.

All up, the USSR incorporated 1 million Jews during the war years, and 1 million Soviet Jews died during the war, leaving the USSR with a total of 4 million Jews.

I'm not sure now what the total is. Many Soviet Jews have emigrated to Israel and America, and many have assimilated. Supposedly, Jewish numbers in America are falling rapidly through assimilation...

Rupert.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9968
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:40 pm)

montague says:
...and 1 million Soviet Jews died during the war....


That's not what Sanning says.

Got evidence?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1675
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:23 am

Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:51 am)

trtsk:

It's game time, post to the pertinent threads or do not post at all. I posted a general notice earlier, and that means you too. No more mixing topics, no more dodging, no more games.
If you want to debate, then this is the place, If you want to obfuscate, and muddy the threads, then please leave now.

RevForum Moderator
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

Hebden
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:17 am
Location: Here and there, mostly there

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:02 am)

Hannover wrote:montague says:
...and 1 million Soviet Jews died during the war....


That's not what Sanning says.

Got evidence?

- Hannover


Unfortunately for you, this is what Mr. Sanning says, with the proviso that those Polish Jews who came under Soviet control in 1939 are included.

Adding it all up, one obtains the following picture: Of the 5.3 million Jews under Soviet domination in 1939/40 at least 700,000 lost their lives during the deportations to the east or in the Siberian "accommodations", labor and concentration camps. 200,000 were killed in combat while serving in Red Army and partisan units and a further 130,000 may have died because of the fighting in the cities, pogroms of the native population, hunger, epidemics, lack of medical attention, over-aging and, last but not least, because of German retributions against Jewish hostages in retaliation for Germans murdered by partisans. All of these developments may well have caused a loss of over one million. For this reason, one should not expect more than 4.3 million Jews survived the war in the Soviet Union - a loss of 20% compared to early 1940.(pg.109)

J William
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 2:21 pm

Postby J William » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:08 am)

I'm not sure now what the total is. Many Soviet Jews have emigrated to Israel and America, and many have assimilated. Supposedly, Jewish numbers in America are falling rapidly through assimilation...


I wonder about the almost limitless supply of Jews in the former Soviet Union. In an 1980s article decrying anti-semitism in the USSR a Jewish newspaper lamented the fact that there were only about 300,000 (three hundred thousand) Jews left in the USSR. As noted above many Jews, far in excess of a million, have so far emigrated from the former USSR and the emigration is continuing. Estimates of Jews remaining number over a million.

The second half of the quote on assimilation is affirmed by Jewish organizations. The organizations quote a 50% intermarrige rate. In a table put out by the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics the World Jewish Population from the year 1882 to 1939 increased by 1.3% yearly. Since 1948 to present the population increase is shown as 0.27% yearly. Three of the possible inferences from this data are the assimilation factor, the birth control pill is working or there weren't enough persons left of child-bearing age. The child bearing age inference is probably not valid as the rate of increase for the years 1990-2000 is even less, <0.25% kind of reinforcing the assimilation scenario.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9968
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:41 am)

Hebden has reluctantly confirmed my statement when he adds a 'proviso' that lumps together Poland and the USSR, he said:
Unfortunately for you, this is what Mr. Sanning says, ***with the proviso that those Polish Jews who came under Soviet control in 1939 are included.***


And ofcourse, there is no evidence that this number of Jews (Polish AND Soviet) were murdered which Mr. Hebden ignores as well. Ah yes, evidence....some never think of that.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

montague
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:57 am

Postby montague » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:59 pm)

Sheer nonsense, man. What do you think I am - a believer? I simply said that Sanning believed that 1 million Soviet Jews died during the war. Did I say that they had been killed by the Nazis? Not at all.

In case you didn't know, it was WWII: lots of people died - including Soviet citizens. (32 million of them died, according to Sanning). Would it be reasonable to believe that I meant that the 1 million Soviet Jew war-dead died, not from a Nazi extermination, but from causes related to the war? Sheesh.

And yes, the 1 million count does include Polish Jews annexed in 1939 - again, I pointed this out (or attempted to, maybe I didn't make it clear) in my post. Eastern Poland, as we all know, ceased to exist in 1939, becoming incorporated into Belarus and the Ukraine, and its Jews along with it. It is still part of the Ukraine and Belarus, as is White Ruthenia (Sub-Carpathian Ukraine).

Rupert.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9968
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:04 pm)

Sorry Rupert, but it would certainly help to make distinctions between Jews from Poland and Jews from the USSR.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

montague
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:57 am

Postby montague » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:00 am)

No, no, no: that's not the issue here. You implied that I was making an accusation against the Germans, to whit, that they exterminated 1 million Soviet Jews, and accused me of distorting Sanning's work to that end. But, if you look at my post, I did no such thing.

Not that I care that much: this happens on every message board, no matter what the subject is - Holocaust Revisionism or comic book collecting. It's always the case that a few individuals like to make trouble by picking fights with others, even with those others agree with them in every respect.

To sum up: I don't believe in an extermination of the Jews, Soviet or otherwise, by the Nazis. Now that my Revisionist credentials are proven, perhaps you'll leave me in peace.

Rupert.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9968
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:34 am)

Look Rupert, I said I was sorry. But in review I wonder why.

Because you stated:
...and 1 million Soviet Jews died during the war....

As it turns out, that number combined the Soviet Union AND Poland, which you did not indicate. I mentioned in replies that, IMO, they should have been kept distinct numbers and I also asked for evidence to support this number, which ofcourse was skewed because it combined Poland and the Soviet Union.
It is important to be clear when talking of deaths around here, it's much too easy to assume one is taking 'gas chambers' deaths etc.
You seem a bit too sensitive. Straight forward talk with guidelines is the order of the day here. I, or anyone else, should feel free to question what another posts, that is debate. If there is confusion, then it will be clarified. No need to throw such a fit. Let's move on.

Thanks, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 1 guest