The shrinking Majdanek death toll

[Cloud]

Really? What is it about then?

Holding an entire people guilty for a crime that they did not commit.

[Steven Willow]

Its interesting and hilarious to add up all the original Hoaxter figures

4,000,000 Auschwitz
1,700,000 Majdanek
900,000 Treblinka
600,000 Belzec
250,000 Sobibor
125,000 Chelmno
1,500,000 Einsatzgruppen totals
1,000,000 Deaths by starvation, shootings, hangings and illness in ghettos and other camps

In other words, 10,075,000 jews Holocausted away. That would mean the survivors (millions of them) ought to have numbered in the negative numbers.

And yet Hilberg said way back in 1960 that only 5,100,000 jews were Holocausted. Does this mean that the Hoaxters were a disorganized, random, leaderless pack, floundering and goofing as they hoaxed merrily along, or did Hilberg -a jew ahead of his times - anticipate the revisionist challenge and do some hasty downsizing? Hilberg claimed, in 1960, that Majdanek only counted for 60,000
jews, hence, he is nearly in agreement with the revisionists. So Twila's idea that the death toll at Majdanek has been shrinking incrementally from 1945 to this moment can be dismissed.

Will we eventually bargain, jewish style, with Hilberg's followers for a compromised number in the middle? I, for one, hope not.

[Steven Willow]

RonTor

Steve, did Lucy Dawidowicz accept Hilberg's claim?

Did Rosh and Jäckel?

Did Czeslaw Rajca?

Hey, RonTor. I am basically in agreement with all of you who are taking lying Hoaxters to task about Majdanek. But we need to be discreet. Lucy Dawidowicz has no credibility with serious Hoaxters. She was considered a third rate hack who failed to conceal her frothing at the gills zionist allegience. Ask any real Hoaxter, RonTor, and they will tell you that Lucy's opinions amount to zilcho. Raul Hilberg, on the other hand, is considered the man, the big Godfather of the Hoax, who came up with a scam that looks better than anyone elses. Hilberg, himself, considered Dawidowicz a crank, and that is enough for most Hoaxters. As far as Rosh and Jackel, I never heard of them. Who are they? jews? Czeslaw Rajca doesn't sound like a jew, but I never heard of him either. I avoid the minor Hoaxters as I hate reading their nonsense, and if I am going to suffer through a pack of lies, I go for the real deal - Christopher Browning, Gotz Aly, Hilberg, Saul Friedlander.

To put it this way, if you are going to state that all English poetry sucks, you have to deal with Shakespeare, not Hallmark greeting cards. If you have some info about the authoritative stature of the pack of Hoaxters that Twila cited, fill us in.
Do they trump Hilberg, or is Hilberg the gold standard for the Hoax?

You ask if Twila should have cited Hilberg's figures. Obviously, Twila cherry picked figures from insignificant Hoaxters to give the impression that Hoaxters have been incrementally goofing with these Majdanek figures. Leaving Hilberg out exposed Twila for not knowing who the real Hoaxters are and for baking the numbers to support an assertion that is untrue. So yes, without Hilberg's figures on Majdanek, Twila's argument won't get to first base.


Look, I'm all for exposing the Hoaxter's lies, but if revisionists are going to do sloppy work, and manipulate sources, we are going to subject ourselves to a lot of abuse and ridicule. Tighten it up, man.

[Steven Willow]

Here is Eberhard Jackel who Twila cited on Majdanek death figures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberhard_J%C3%A4ckel. I confess to never hearing of him, and he is clearly one of a slimy pack of
German panderers who all try to outdo one another in their devotion to zionist aims. Jackel (how apt the name) apparently has invested in the silly debate that the Holo-Hoax was far worse than any other of history's great cataclysms. He also has argued that Hitler planned the murder of all jews from day one, an argument that, in my understanding, most Hoaxters even consider silly.

The real voice of the Hoax, revered by academics and professional Hoaxters, is Raul Hilberg, and if he said that only 60,000 jews got Holocausted at Majdanek, and he said this way back in 1960, you can bet your rump that this is the opinion parroted by the vast majority of Hoaxters.

Note that Hilberg's figures have a way of becoming the official figures. Have no doubt, this jew was driving the Hoax bus.

[Kladderadatsch]

As far as Rosh and Jackel, I never heard of them. Who are they?

Here is Eberhard Jackel who Twila cited on Majdanek death figures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberhard_J%C3%A4ckel. I confess to never hearing of him, and he is clearly one of a slimy pack of German panderers who all try to outdo one another in their devotion to zionist aims.

Steven, I see you've been following up your leads on your own. Maybe you'll be back to post about Rosh as well, but just in case you don't, I've been googling around a little myself, so I'll add the Wikipedia article on Lea Rosh to everyone's must-read list here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lea_Rosh

A first class Nestbeschmutzer, as the Germans say, she was the driving force behind the preposterous "Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe" completed in 2005, which covered some 5 acres of prime Berlin real estate with 2,711 giant chunks of cement. Just a short walk from the Brandenburg Gate, on the corner of Hannah-Arendt-Strasse and Cora-Berliner-Strasse, you can take in a few million kilograms worth of Reinforced Concrete Hologuilt and then catch up with friends across the street at the Denk-Mal Lounge . Check it out on Google Maps--it has to be seen to be believed.

But perhaps there is some justice in this world, after all:

In 2003, Rosh was elected "most embarrassing Berliner of the year" (peinlichste Berlinerin) by the readers of Berlin city magazine Tip.

"Dumm gelaufen"

[Steven Willow]

Steven, I see you've been following up your leads on your own. Maybe you'll be back to post about Rosh as well, but just in case you don't, I've been googling around a little myself, so I'll add the Wikipedia article on Lea Rosh to everyone's must-read list here

Thanks, Kladderadatsch. Some of these panderers are so eager to appease that even the jews are embarrassed. Yes, the Jackels and Roshes should be held accountable, and will, in some future day of reckoning. But don't present these embarrassments as representing the official position of the Hoaxters. Know your real Hoaxters and deal with their claims. If someone claims that 20 million jews got Holocausted, have a good laugh, but to convince the world of the Hoax one has to deal with the 5,100,000 jewish dead that Hilberg alleges.

[SKcz]

I don't mean to be rude skcz, but I'm only interested in facts. Can you provide an authorative source for your statement?

This isn´t rude, I have no problem with your questions. I do not know what you consider as authoritative, you mean propably not revisionist source, for example Hilberg, Pelt, Lipstadt and etc.? Well, if some of them would have said this statement, I think that we wouldn´t be here on codoh forum.

Here is authoritative source under oath - Raul Hilberg:

Do you know of one scientific report that substantiates that any single place was used as a gas chamber? If so, please name it, said Christie.

"What do you mean by a scientific report?," asked Hilberg.

I don't usually have to define simple words, said Christie, but by "scientific report" I mean a report conducted by anyone who purported to be a scientist and who examined physical evidence. Name one report of such a kind that showed the existence of gas chambers anywhere in Nazi-occupied territory. (5-968)

"I still don't quite understand the import of your question," said Hilberg. "Are you referring to a German, or a post-war -"

I don't care who -- German, post-war, Allied, Soviet -- any source at all. Name one, said Christie.

"To prove what?," asked Hilberg.

To conclude that they have physically seen a gas chamber. One scientific report, repeated Christie.

"I am really at a loss. I am very seldom at such a loss, but ... Again, I can only state that there have been aerial photographs that were analysed. Perhaps that is not in your definition of science. There have been contemporaneous documents about the lethality of the gas that was employed. Perhaps this is not important to you. There are documents -- " (5-969)

[...]

Judge Locke interrupted: "Doctor ... do you know of such a report?"

"No," replied Hilberg.

http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/09hilberg.html

After more than 20 years, still nothing. Is fact (and amitted by authoritative orthodox source Hilberg in 80´s), that gas chambers are not proven by any report or investigation, nobody ever proved their existence, this accusation from gassing simply began to be "common knowledge" because when you repeat something very often, after some time it begins to be considred as truth, this is how it works.

I am curious, why do you need some authoritative source for this statement, why don´t you look at every AHGCH (Alleged Homicidal Gas Chamber) with your own eyes? I mean, I do not need authoritative source to know, that without the introduction holes, gassing is not possible as claimed. I do not need it to know that is not possible to gas peoples in room with glass window or with doors without locks and so on.

If somebody don´t agree with my position, I challenge him/her to show me AHGCH and tell me how it works, I don´t have high requirements, I do not ask for proof that gassing did happen as most of the peoples, all what I want is to see how it worked as they claims. Is really hard to show device responsible for some 3-4 millions (depends on source) dead peoples if this device existed/exists? I would expect to see it in every holocaust book, tv documents, in many movies, in holocaust museums, but big surprise - nothing, only lies.

I'll try skcz. From how I understand things, the factual statements found by twila all have authorative sources, many made by hard core believers themselves. And it appears that this is an irrefutable statement: "Not one person has ever been proven to have died via poison gas in a so-called "homicidal gas chamber" at the camp - NOT ONE!"

In this case you do not need authoritative source for this statement?

The confusion of your statement: "Not one homicidal gas chamber has ever been proven to exist and capable of what holocaust believers claims" comes from the fact that "gas chambers" do exist at the camp. I even read something somewhere about someone seeing a group of school children in tears as they were shown a "homocidal gas chamber" at Majdanek. If they are able to do that, then they are confusing people with a delousing chamber that does exist at the camp with a non existent "homocidal gas chamber".

Gas chambers exists, but only delousing chambers. What you described (I saw something like this in documentary Defamation) is not "confusing peoples", they are lying to them and I do not know why these peoples are not able to realize that what they see cannot be AHGH because of elementar reasons described above - glass window, doors opens inward, no locks, door can be opened from inside, no ventilation and so on. But propably first minutes of this documentary explained quite well how is possible to be blind and how easy is to achieve this.

Thanks, I'll look into that. Perhaps when I get done reading it I'll understand your position better.

Propably not, this thread is very short and ended quite fast, this happens everytime when I want to see alleged nazi homicidal gas chamber. But understanding to my position is not hard, I explained above how quite simple can be the points which turned me from believer to unbeliever.

[borjastick]

The questioning of Hillberg under oath is a classic example of how the hoaxter, when and if hoaxters get cornered, wriggle and try to change the subject, question, direction. They do a classic PR trick of not accepting the premise of the question and turn it against you. In this short clip he was actually asked a yes or no question, but he managed to deflect and create a little skirmish. He used faux ignorance to put the question back at the questioner. Clever but no cigar because someone of his exalted position in Hoaxterdom should be able to answer this with an alternative assertion of equal or greater import.

To my mind this is typical of those in Hoaxter World such as Lipstadt et al. When they don't like the question because they know they cannot prove the point, they suggest or accuse the questioner of being anti semitic or a neo nazi fascist etc.

In the end they do their cause little good. As for the great unwashed not noticing things like inward opening doors etc in 'gas chambers' why would they notice? They are in the main, believers and so like any good conjuring trick the audience wants to believe they are seeing real magic. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[RonTor]

Thanks to all who have given answers and information.

One major questions remains for me about Hilberg.

I've read that he talks of 60,000 JEW deaths, but what was the TOTAL number of dead he claimed?


skcz

Gas chambers exists, but only delousing chambers. What you described (I saw something like this in documentary Defamation) is not "confusing peoples", they are lying to them and I do not know why these peoples are not able to realize that what they see cannot be AHGH because of elementar reasons described above - glass window, doors opens inward, no locks, door can be opened from inside, no ventilation and so on.

It's because they're confused.


"And it appears that this is an irrefutable statement:

"Not one person has ever been proven to have died via poison gas in a so-called "homicidal gas chamber" at the camp - NOT ONE!"

skcz

In this case you do not need authoritative source for this statement?

No, just a name of one person who was gassed, with proof, to prove it is false.

[SKcz]

I've read that he talks of 60,000 JEW deaths,

Correct number for Jews is 50,000 - (Raul Hilberg, Die Vernichtung der europäischen Juden, Frankfurt/Main: S. Fischer, 1990, v. II, p. 956; the original English edition (The Destruction of European Jewry, Chicago: Quadrangle, 1967) speaks only of "tens of thousands", p. 572.;Student version, 1985, pp. 338, 339

but what was the TOTAL number of dead he claimed?

For holocaust he claimed 5,100,000 - The Destruction of the European Jews, 2003, p. 1320 or Student version, 1985, pp. 338, 339.

For Majdanek, as said by Mattogno and Graf:

"Certain authors regard the Jewish victims as the only ones worthy of note."

(J. GRAF, C. MATTOGNO, CONCENTRATION CAMP MAJDANEK, p. 89)

So no total number for Majdanek from Hilberg, at least to my knowledge.

No, just a name of one person who was gassed, with proof, to prove it is false.

I asked because you wanted authoritative source for my statement about gas chambers and in this case you did not want authoritative source. Why when the both statements are practically identical?

[Steven Willow]

skcz

Correct number for Jews is 50,000... So no total number for Majdanek from Hilberg, at least to my knowledge.

So Hilberg cannot be used as a source when talking about TOTAL number of deaths at Majdanek.

The document twila posted showed figures for claimed TOTAL deaths, not just JEW deaths.

So that makes all of Steven Willow's comments about twila spurious and thus can be dismissed.

(Steven was trying to confuse the issue by comparing apples to oranges instead of apples to apples, but it was very transparent.)


Steven Willow

You ask if Twila should have cited Hilberg's figures. Obviously, Twila cherry picked figures from insignificant Hoaxters to give the impression that Hoaxters have been incrementally goofing with these Majdanek figures. Leaving Hilberg out exposed Twila for not knowing who the real Hoaxters are and for baking the numbers to support an assertion that is untrue. So yes, without Hilberg's figures on Majdanek, Twila's argument won't get to first base.

From what I gather, twila posted a document she found and "made some improvements."

I see no evidence of twila "cherry picking" or "baking the numbers."

And I see no evidence of twila presenting an "argument," only facts. Facts that speak for themselves.

But I do see evidence that Hoaxters have been incrementally goofing with the Majdanek figures.

Evidence that is backed up with clear, irrefutable facts and authoritative sources.

The only assertions that I see that are untrue are Steven Willow's.

Not one statement in the document that twila posted is untrue.

I see no evidence of willful or even innocent deception.

So Steven, your argument doesn’t get to first base.

And it exposes you as a person who is unreliable and does not know what he's talking about.

A person who has subjected himself to a lot of abuse and ridicule.

Tighten it up, man.

Why the ad hominem, RonTor?

And it exposes you as a person who is unreliable and does not know what he's talking about.

If revisionists are going to accomplish anything we have to reject the crude emotional tactics of the Hoaxters. I believe that we can discuss our differences with civility and achieve an understanding.
While I agree that Hilberg shows his jewcentric bias when offering only the number of so called jewish victims in his 50,000 (my error for stating 60,000) deaths for Majdanek, you are, nonetheless, being quite disingenuous, RonTor, if you are arguing that ALL these numbers aren't essentually about "jewdeaths." The Hoaxters, whose figures Twila quotes are all shills for the Hoaxter industry, and their figures are intended to add weight to the load of German guilt and the noxious celebration of jewish victimization. Whereas the Soviets may have downplayed, or even ignored so called jewish victims toward their end of communist formulas about fascist killers and working class victims, all of Twila's Hoaxters are assuming that most victims were jews. RonTor, you can't possibly interpret Hilberg's silence on non-jew deaths as an assertion that large numbers of non-jews were killed at Majdanek. Hilberg's 1961 figures are the only truely influential ones that resonate in the Hoaxter world that dominates academia. When Wiki states that Hilberg is "widely recognised as the world's preeminent scholar on the Holocaust" you can be sure that this statement represents the will of the Hoaxter leadership. The proof for this can be verified in the final numbers displayed at the Majdanek museum - 59,000 jew deaths, 79,000 total deaths - essentially Hilberg's numbers.

If you read Hoaxter literature, you will find that most, if not all, respected Hoaxter so called scholars, nod in agreement to Hilberg's figures on AR camp deaths, Einsatzgruppen shootings, etc.

RonTor, Twila presented no facts, only copy and paste opinions of so called Holocaust scholars that are not widely known nor respected even among believers. Her choice of whose opinions she chose to quote resulted in deliberate deception since most Hoaxters do not accept the figures quoted from Jackel nor Lucy Dawidawisc. That is why I noted that her figures were cherry picked to give a false impression that most Hoaxters trumpet these inflated numbers. The numbers that Hilberg presented have been the dominant ones in the holocaust Hoaxter industry for half a century and are seconded by Browning and Friedlander. So Twila decieved via ommision, as she could have quoted a large number of Hoaxters that give much lower figures for Majdanek had she chosen to quote the "preeminent" Hoaxters. These "dominant" Hoaxter opinions have been around for many decades and are not part of a shrinking of anything. Once Hilberg shrunk it, it stayed shrunk.

I would rather have Twila here to defend her argument as she might not be so bitter and unwilling to consider different opinions.

[borjastick]

Chaps, this has been a very interesting discussion and it has made me refer to my books on the holohoax to check various statements made here. For me the best work to reference the big statements and data is 'Debating the Holocaust' by Thomas Dalton.

With regard to Majdanek I would like to quote the following from this book, on Majdanek starting page 153;

'This is not a long chapter. Once a bright star in the Holocaust firmament, Majdanek has fallen mightily.'

P154, 'Regarding the killings, Majdanek was unique in four respects. First Jews were only one third or so of the total victim count. Second, a large portion of the total jewish fatalities is claimed by traditionalists to have occurred on a single day: November 3, 1943, when 18000 were allegedly machine-gunned in ditches. Third fully sixty percent died of natural causes, the remaining 40 per cent died of shootings or gassings.'

He concludes that a maximum of 2000 people were gassed, if this happened at all.

All in all he deconstructs the Maydanek claims quite comprehensively. The lack of prussian blue is mentioned as is the statement of SS officer Erich Mussfeldt which he feels was co-erced as it lacks coherence and credibility.

My own feeling having read and re read about Majdanek is that it is a nonsense and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The claims of 1.5 million deaths there has been totally debunked and even at 50,000 the gassings were at most accountable for 2000 jews. Clearly there is sufficient evidence to dismiss the gassing claims too, in my opinion.

[Steven Willow]

borjastick

He concludes that a maximum of 2000 people were gassed, if this happened at all.

borjastick, are you sure that Dalton concedes even the possibility of gas chambers at Majdanek? It is my feeling that there is no evidence whatsoever for this. Gassing is a slippery slope for us, as once one concedes even small numbers of gassings (remember, the Hoaxters have not produced a single autopsy of a victim of Nazi gassings) the Hoaxters use this as an argument for genocidal intentions.

Going back to Hilberg's 50,000, it is clear that the Hoaxters understood that Majdanek offered no forensic evidence to support the claims of its death camp status. Hence, the perpetrators of the Hoax cut their losses with downsized figures that would draw attention away from Majdanek. This happened in 1961, if not earlier. The reason that Hilberg is touted as the #1 holocaust scholar is because his figures are designed to withstand the onslaught of revisionist truth. For that reason, it is especially crucial that revisionists do not fall for these reduced figures and offer concessions.

Regarding claims that Majdanek victims were largely non-jews, that is another Hoaxter stock in trade ploy. By hoaxing tales of crimes against Gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs and war prisoners, the Hoaxters attempt their libel against Germany, and set the larger context for claims of a jewish genocide. That is why we are told that the Nazi gassing program originated as a program of Euthanasia to rid Germany of its mentally retarded and mentally ill citizens.

[borjastick]

Steven, Dalton's summary is that there were seven so called chambers which our Russian friends claimed was where the gassings took place. Hi analysis is variously these buildings were not capable of doing any such thing due to lack of suitable doors, windows, ventilation evacuation of poison gas, lack of blue staining etc.

Also that even traditionalists Shermer and Grobman trip up over the story by claiming that of all the jewish deaths there only 60,000 were from gassing. Yet we now know that the total death toll was 60,000 maximum (Graf and Mattogno feel the total death toll was no more than 25,000) and not 60k jews gassed.

He says, like most researchers say, that any gas chambers were for delousing only. So there you have it, once again gassing myths have been debunked and no hard evidence and or facts have been provided by the hoaxters. No gas chambers, no bodies, no autopsy proof etc.

I am happy to check any other theories from Dalton's book. I have been in contact with him a couple of times and he is a most friendly man.

[Stevia]

TheBlackRabbitofInlé

There was a 2,000,000 claim as well.

…

You can find Costello's report in:

- McNeish, James. The Sixth Man: The Extraordinary Life of Paddy Costello. London: Quartet Books. 2008. p.313-318

I have been doing some research on Majdanek as well, and was recently informed of another reference to the 2,000,000 figure for Majdanek.

I checked the information out for myself and confirmed that what I was told was in fact true.

See page 191 in the book:


Photographing the Holocaust: Interpretations of the Evidence

By Janina Struk

http://books.google.com/books?id=P0CnKQ ... BgQ6AEwAA#


The book references Aleksander Ford’s movie - Majdanek: Cemetery of Europe, which the book says “is still shown in the museum.”

What I find most interesting is what the book says about the Soviets confiscating the first part of the film.

I wonder what kind of exculpatory evidence can be found in the missing footage?

Here is a link to the film:

http://rateyourmusic.com/film/vernichtu ... ko_europy/