"show me alleged gas chamber"

[Hans]

Hans, i challenge you, can you show me alleged gas chamber used for alleged extermination as you suggested in your opening comment and show me how this device worked Please, start your own thread and show me this device used for liquidation as you claimed.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7081

Actually I did not claim anything about gas chambers in my opening comment. Anyway, here is a gas chamber, for instance. Here is the same now with chimneys erected at the gas openings. Here and here are some aerial shots of the same gas chamber and of its ruin, respectively.

And before anybody is asserting that this cannot be a gas chamber because there are "no holes", take note of the comprehensive discussion of the evidence as well as Revisionist arguments here.

The operation principle was: victims undress and enter the gas chamber, Zyklon-B is introduced by trained SS through the openings in the roof, wait for their death, ventilate, clearing.

If you any specific questions, do not hesitate to ask.

[Pa Gromheizer]

Zyklon B [95%] was accounted for by Pressac [paper trail] as being used for the health, safety and welfare of the workers/pow's.

Pressac presents better evidence than your pictures of crematories with attached morgues and freehand sketches. I think, you think, people were gassed to death. However, for a crime of the scope you imagine, there would be forensic proofs extant.

You do have something to submit as tangible evidence?

Excuse me for jumping in like this but nobody else seemed to care about talking with you.

[SKcz]

Hans, i challenge you, can you show me alleged gas chamber used for alleged extermination as you suggested in your opening comment and show me how this device worked Please, start your own thread and show me this device used for liquidation as you claimed.

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7081

Actually I did not claim anything about gas chambers in my opening comment.

Before my admission that I misrepresented your comment as you suggested with your response, I would like to ask a question. Can you explain this from you:

"The immediate killing of Jews unfit for work referred exclusively to Jews freshly deported to Auschwitz with RSHA transports and selected at the ramp in Auschwitz. It did not refer to Jews who were already registered in the camp and became unfit for work. Here a different policy applied. In this case, the Jews were transferred into a hospital camp and if they recovered had chance to get released into their block. However, from time to time (depending on factors such as how much labour was required, how full was the camp, also on the present camp regime) selections were also carried out in the hospital camps and inmates were liquidated."

The rest of your comment is in the same language, what exactly means "selection of unfit for immediate killing/liquidation" and for what they selected these peoples as you claim in your opening comment?

Your answer will clarify if you claimed or did not claimed anything about gas chambers.

Anyway, here is a gas chamber, for instance. Here is the same now with chimneys erected at the gas openings. Here and here are some aerial shots of the same gas chamber.

This is not true, you showed morgue of krema II as proven by this construction (one of the many) plan, for example here
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... sement.jpg

"L-Keller" means morgue, room for storing of dead bodies.

Where is your proof for your claim that this room is a gas chamber? I mean, you cannot point at some building on the photo with saying "this is the gas chamber", you must tell me why and what is your proof.

And before anybody is asserting that this cannot be a gas chamber because there are "no holes", take note of the comprehensive discussion of the evidence as well as Revisionist arguments here.

You are registered here, so you know the guidelines and using of links to other websites without quoting from them with comment is not allowed (moderator can correct me If I am wrong). Can you please quote your evidence that room is a gas chamber from your link?

Notification - Please, do not repeat your claims which you already made on this forum in the threads below, read them again to learn what will be repetition and what will be new. In the case you want to repeat yourself, you must first adress response on your claims in the threads below.

"Second" Report of Robert Jan Van Pelt

Challenge number 14 - Zyklon B Introduction holes

The operation principle was: victims undress and enter the gas chamber,

For example, image "Olere11.jpg" is wrong, here is scheme of the construction of krematoria II
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... uction.jpg

And here is the plan
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... rint-2.jpg

Picture is thus wrong and made by person who do not know how this building looked like and that is very bad because the other pictures are from the same author. Why did you use wrong picture of something what didn´t exist (at least to my knowledge, building on the drawed picture never existed) when you wanted to show a gas chamber?

Zyklon-B is introduced by trained SS through the openings in the roof

Holes were discussed in the threads above, I am waiting for your reaction. Feel free to show alleged holes in this thread because one of the thread above is locked.

wait for their death,

How long?

ventilate,

How?

Challenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

If you any specific questions, do not hesitate to ask.

Thank you, your "operation principle" is very vague, but looking forward to hear from you.

[ginger]

The pictures are picture of buildings and they are still only "alleged" gas chambers. You leave out any proof that people were gassed in the buildings.

The method of gassing you describe is a fiction. You state that Zyklon-B was introduced by trained SS through the openings in the roof. The Nazis had alot of experience working with Zykon B to kill lice, and they would not expect to kill people using the method you describe.

Zyklon B was in a pellet, or granular, form. Hydrocyanide acid gas evaporated slowly from the Zyklon B pellets, taking about a half of an hour to evaporate, and then, to be effective, it had to be circulated through the room, by the aid of fans, for example.

The gas could easily kill people but in the form of pellets? . . . not so easily. If the pellets were dumped into a gas chamber as you describe, the gas would take a half hour to evaporate and up to an hour to fill the room. People would wait for an hour to die.

[Hans]

The rest of your comment is in the same language, what exactly means "selection of unfit for immediate killing/liquidation" and for what they selected these peoples as you claim in your opening comment?

Your answer will clarify if you claimed or did not claimed anything about gas chambers.

It means exactly what it says: immeadiate killing. By what method, I did leave open in the posting, because I was discussing policy. The policy was not bound to a killing method and does not suggest any killing method.

Anyway, here is a gas chamber, for instance. Here is the same now with chimneys erected at the gas openings. Here and here are some aerial shots of the same gas chamber.

This is not true, you showed morgue of krema II as proven by this construction (one of the many) plan, for example here
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... sement.jpg

"L-Keller" means morgue, room for storing of dead bodies.

Where is your proof for your claim that this room is a gas chamber?

The basement was equipped with a gas tight door and was designated as gassing cellar, which demonstrates that the basement was a gas chamber and rebutts your claim it was an ordinary morgue. Testimonial evidence of SS personell like Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höß, camp leader Hans Aumeier, SS officer Josef Erber or SS private Pery Broad shows that it was used to gas people.

Can you please quote your evidence that room is a gas chamber from your link?

"We have seen the extensive and diversified evidence for the existence of gas introduction openings in the basements of crematoria 2 and 3 in Auschwitz Birkenau:

26 witness accounts, 5 aerial photos, 1 ground photo, 1 contemporary document and the ruin with its 3 potential and suitable gas openings.

But even this is just the core of what points to the veracity of the story. Since gassing in the basements are only technically feasible via some kind of opening, any testimony on homicidal gassing in the crematoria 2 and 3, even when lacking details on specific gas introduction, is supplementary evidence as well.

This includes SS personell such as Erich Mußfeldt, Pery Broad, Gerhard Wiebeck, Sonderkommandos Dov Paisikovic, Milton Buki, Shlomo Dragon, and civilian engineer Kurt Prüfer.

Furthermore, substantial documentary evidence on the installation of a gassing facility in the basements joins here too, including references to gassing cellar, undressing room/cellar, gas tight doors, special treatment in the crematorium."

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _2071.html

The operation principle was: victims undress and enter the gas chamber,

For example, image "Olere11.jpg" is wrong, here is scheme of the construction of krematoria II
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... uction.jpg

And here is the plan
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... rint-2.jpg

Picture is thus wrong and made by person who do not know how this building looked like and that is very bad because the other pictures are from the same author. Why did you use wrong picture of something what didn´t exist (at least to my knowledge, building on the drawed picture never existed) when you wanted to show a gas chamber?

In contrary, the drawing is a good sketch of the crematorium clearly made by somebody who knew it well. Olere has correctly identified the prisoner accomodation in the attic, the SS offices and furnace room with 15 furnaces on ground level and the gassing cellar in the basement.

He has rotated the cellar by 90°, but let aside that this is not even a serious error in which direction an underground room without windows (for orientation) extended, Olere knew that the correct position of the gassing basement with respect to the main building and therefore the rotation was implemented in order to show both the furnace room and SS office and the gassing cellar in one single drawing or in other words, to show more relevant information.

Zyklon-B is introduced by trained SS through the openings in the roof

Holes were discussed in the threads above, I am waiting for your reaction. Feel free to show alleged holes in this thread because one of the thread above is locked.

I already provided the evidence demonstrating the gas introduction openings in these threads and as far as I can remember you did not provide any challenging arguments. Check it out again if you are curious.

wait for their death,

How long?

Up to 20 min (Höß, Endlösung der Judenfrage..., "Nach spätestens 20 Minuten regte sich keiner mehr.")

ventilate,

How?

Challenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

By turning on the ventilation. For how long, I will have to check again especially in Sonderkommando accounts. I do not want to give you unreliable data after all!

[SKcz]

The rest of your comment is in the same language, what exactly means "selection of unfit for immediate killing/liquidation" and for what they selected these peoples as you claim in your opening comment?

Your answer will clarify if you claimed or did not claimed anything about gas chambers.

It means exactly what it says: immeadiate killing. By what method, I did leave open in the posting, because I was discussing policy. The policy was not bound to a killing method and does not suggest any killing method.

Can you clarify your comment please, what killing method you meant for alleged "immediate killing of selected peoples unfit for work?"

This is not true, you showed morgue of krema II as proven by this construction (one of the many) plan, for example here
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... sement.jpg

"L-Keller" means morgue, room for storing of dead bodies.

Where is your proof for your claim that this room is a gas chamber?

The basement was equipped with a gas tight door and was designated as gassing cellar, which demonstrates that the basement was a gas chamber and rebutts your claim it was an ordinary morgue. Testimonial evidence of SS personell like Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höß, camp leader Hans Aumeier, SS officer Josef Erber or SS private Pery Broad shows that it was used to gas people.

Show me how you know that basement was euqipped with gas tight door and how gas tight door prove homicidal gas chamber because gas tight doors were in delousing chambers as well and nobody claims that homicidal gassing took place there.
http://www.mazal.org/pressac/Images/046-01.jpg

Show me more about "gassing cellar" and how this prove homicidal gas chamber because delousing chambers are called "gaskammer" in plans and nobody claims that gassing took place there.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e055.shtml
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... age056.jpe

Show here testimonial evidence.

which demonstrates that the basement was a gas chamber and rebutts your claim it was an ordinary morgue.

Not true, I wrote this:

"you showed morgue of krema II as proven by this construction (one of the many) plan, for example here
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... sement.jpg

"L-Keller" means morgue, room for storing of dead bodies."

Where I claimed that this morgue was "ordinary morgue" because I do not see it. Quote relevant passage.

Can you please quote your evidence that room is a gas chamber from your link?

"We have seen the extensive and diversified evidence for the existence of gas introduction openings in the basements of crematoria 2 and 3 in Auschwitz Birkenau:

26 witness accounts, 5 aerial photos, 1 ground photo, 1 contemporary document and the ruin with its 3 potential and suitable gas openings.

But even this is just the core of what points to the veracity of the story. Since gassing in the basements are only technically feasible via some kind of opening, any testimony on homicidal gassing in the crematoria 2 and 3, even when lacking details on specific gas introduction, is supplementary evidence as well.

This includes SS personell such as Erich Mußfeldt, Pery Broad, Gerhard Wiebeck, Sonderkommandos Dov Paisikovic, Milton Buki, Shlomo Dragon, and civilian engineer Kurt Prüfer.

Furthermore, substantial documentary evidence on the installation of a gassing facility in the basements joins here too, including references to gassing cellar, undressing room/cellar, gas tight doors, special treatment in the crematorium."

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _2071.html

You missed or ignored my notification, here is again:

Notification - Please, do not repeat your claims which you already made on this forum in the threads below, read them again to learn what will be repetition and what will be new. In the case you want to repeat yourself, you must first adress response on your claims in the threads below.

You showed again what has been adressed in mentioned threads, don´t ignore it please and do not repeat your claims, this will not aid discussion.

Present what is new or answer relevant passages in provided links, just continue where you stopped.

For example, image "Olere11.jpg" is wrong, here is scheme of the construction of krematoria II
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... uction.jpg

And here is the plan
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... rint-2.jpg

Picture is thus wrong and made by person who do not know how this building looked like and that is very bad because the other pictures are from the same author. Why did you use wrong picture of something what didn´t exist (at least to my knowledge, building on the drawed picture never existed) when you wanted to show a gas chamber?

In contrary, the drawing is a good sketch of the crematorium clearly made by somebody who knew it well. Olere has correctly identified the prisoner accomodation in the attic, the SS offices and furnace room with 15 furnaces on ground level and the gassing cellar in the basement.

He has rotated the cellar by 90°, but let aside that this is not even a serious error in which direction an underground room without windows (for orientation) extended, Olere knew exactly that the correct position of the gassing basement with respect to the main building and therefore the rotation was implemented in order to show both the furnace room and SS office and the gassing cellar in one single drawing or in other words, to show more relevant information.

This is not true, I proved with construction plan and with scheme based on plan that drawing is wrong, don´t ignore me please.

You showed another image which is again wrong (rooms are wrong and something is flipped, something not, very confusing and wrong).
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg201/sc ... es=landing

In this case, can you please begin posting something relevant and not wrong sketches with free artistic license? The only thing which I see from these pictures is that author drawed them freely with own artistic license and are wrong when compared with reality and thus useless for showing gas chamber.

Do you have something better than wrong sketches?

Holes were discussed in the threads above, I am waiting for your reaction. Feel free to show alleged holes in this thread because one of the thread above is locked.

I already demonstrated the gas introduction openings in any of the threads and as far as I can remember you did not provide any challenging arguments. Check it out again if you are curious.

Not true I must say, check the threads again or show the holes here.

How long?

Up to 20 min (Höß, Endlösung der Judenfrage..., "Nach spätestens 20 Minuten regte sich keiner mehr.")

You chose 20 min and Rudolf Höß , ok, this means also that AHGCH was full of 2000 peoples (PS-3868) .This is not possible:

For later references, we want to keep in mind that, at 15°C and in the presence of lower atmospheric humidity, approximately 10% of the hydrogen cyanide used at Auschwitz has left the carrier material during the first five minutes, and approximately 50% after half an hour. At a temperature of 30°C, it can be expected that 15% would have been released within the first five minutes, and up to 60% after half an hour.

The Rudolf Report, based on data by R. Irmscher from Degesch, p. 183

Assuming high temperature of 30C, after your 20 min period, only some 45-50%% of HCN would left carrier if I assume that Zyklon B is spreaded in thin layer on not cold and wet ground in empty room with low relative humidity. This is not the case of alleged gas chamber. HCN allegedly used for gassing as you claim is not even able to leave carrier in these ideal conditions and in mentioned period.

In US gas chambers, the execution of one human can last up to 18 minutes. In early March 1999, however, this horror had already been forgotten. This time, the victim was a German national. Despite intervention by the German government, Walter LaGrand was executed in the state prison at Florence, Arizona. LaGrand’s death struggle against lethal cyanide gas lasted eighteen minutes. Thirty witnesses peered through a bulletproof window as the confessed, convicted murderer died horribly behind an armor-reinforced door.(4)

Publications in the United States reveal that executions lasting from 10 to 14 minutes are the rule, rather than the exception. Amnesty International calls them “botched executions.”(5-8)

4.Bettina Freitag, “Henker warten nicht,” New Yorker Staats-Zeitung, March 13-19, 1999, p. 3.
5.The News & Observer, Raleigh (NC), June 11, 1994, p. 14A (according to the prison warden, normally 10-14 min.).
6. C.T. Duffy, 88 Men and 2 Women, Doubleday, New York 1962, p. 101 (13-15 min.); C.T. Duffy was warden of San Quentin Prison for almost 12 years, during which time he ordered the execution of 88 men and 2 women, many of them executed in the local gas chamber.
7. Stephen Trombley, The Execution Protocol, Crown Publishers, New York 1992, p. 13 (approximately 10 minutes or more.); Amnesty International, Botched Executions, Fact Sheet December 1996, distributed by Amnesty International USA, 322 Eighth Avenue, New York, NY 10001-4808 (more than 7 min). See also more recently: Scott Christianson, The Last Gasp. The
Rise and Fall of the American Gas Chamber, University of California Press, Berkeley, CA, 2010.

The Rudolf Report, p. 13

In these ideal conditions in modern gas chamber constructed exactly for the purpose of execution of one human, this execution can last up to 18 min.

What you have said here is not possible and wrong. Also Hoess signed this:

So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyclon B, which was a crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber
depending upon climatic conditions.

Höss’s declaration, April 5, 1946 (Document PS-3868)
http://www.nizkor.org//ftp.cgi/imt/nca/ ... 06-3868-ps
Case for Auschwitz, Pelt, p. 250; instead of Auschwitz he wrote "Auschwitz I"

Why did you choose 20 min.? Or the gas chamber in Auschwitz I (according to Pelt) was much faster than AHGCH in krema II?

How?

Challenges number 12 and 13 - Ventilation System

By turning on the ventilation. For how long, I will have to check again especially in Sonderkommando accounts. I do not want to give you unreliable data after all!

How long, when, and how was possible to ventilate room using system in that room, I will wait for your data.

Notification - Please, bear in mind content of provided thread, do not repeat yourself.

[Dresden]

SKcz said:

"how gas tight door prove homicidal gas chamber because gas tight doors were in delousing chambers as well and nobody claims that homicidal gassing took place there"

Nor do they deny that they were gas chambers.....so your argument fails.
It's true that the gastight door doesn't prove it was a homicidal gas chamber, because it could have been, and probably was, used as an air raid shelter, but that's a different argument than yours.

[SKcz]

SKcz said:

"how gas tight door prove homicidal gas chamber because gas tight doors were in delousing chambers as well and nobody claims that homicidal gassing took place there"

Nor do they deny that they were gas chambers.....so your argument fails.
It's true that the gastight door doesn't prove it was a homicidal gas chamber, because it could have been, and probably was, used as an air raid shelter, but that's a different argument than yours.

Not true, were are sure that gas tight doors were installed in delousing chamber so nobody denies it, at least to my knowledge. But are we sure abou that in leichenkeller 1? Here is what you have missed in your quote of my comment (why?):

"Show me how you know that basement was euqipped with gas tight door

And this is very important. According to plan 2197 from March 19, 1943, the frame was reduced to single door wider than 100cm, see also Case for Sanity, p. 146

"the door opening in that blueprint is only some 160-175 cm wide (see document 19). Although this is much wider than would suit a one meter wide door (the “gas-tight” door discussed in chapter 2.2. was 1 m wide), this indicates that some change was indeed made."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0311.shtml

But gas tight door is described as 100/192.

Before my admission that leichenkeller 1 was/or was planned to be use also as a gas chamber I need to see solved door issue. I am waiting for Hans or you to tell me how you know that door was installed in leichenkeller 1 becasue you accepted it without objection as I see. Not ordered, or considered, but installed. Maybe it looks like an unimportant issue because gas tight door is not proof of homicidal gas chamber, but i would like to see it solved if possible.

I challenge you to demonstrate why my (actually not mine) argument fails as you claimed.

[Pa Gromheizer]

. . . By turning on the ventilation. For how long, I will have to check again especially in Sonderkommando accounts. I do not want to give you unreliable data after all!

Excuse me for being brash, but the sonderkommando are known for making bizarre, exaggerated and conflicting statements. So, how can you validate anything the sonderkommando say by stating: "I do not want to give you unreliable data after all!" Especially from your POV, that the alleged gassings did occur. In that case the sonderkommando were in cahoots with the Germans to exterminate Jews.
In your scenario the sonderkommando should have been hunted down and made to pay for their war crimes in consorting with the enemy by assisting in killing their own tribal members. Yet you gravitate towards them by accepting their testimony as being reliable.

Do you have any tangible evidence? Like documents or photos of the ventilation system or components? Also, were the vent stacks high enough over-grade to allow natural air currents to safely dissipate the still outgassing Zyklon B to the atmosphere and away from the resident workers and staff?
Thank you.

[Dresden]

SKcz said:

"were are sure that gas tight doors were installed in delousing chamber so nobody denies it"

Right! Nobody denies that there were gastight doors on the delousing chambers.....nor do they deny that they were GAS CHAMBERS.

"But are we sure abou that in leichenkeller 1?"

I don't know; nor does it have anything to do with the fact that your argument(the one I'm addressing) is a non sequitur.

"Here is what you have missed in your quote of my comment (why?):

"Show me how you know that basement was euqipped with gas tight door"

No, I didn't miss it; it's a separate argument.....you see, there are three separate arguments here, to wit:

1. Prove that the morgue had a gastight door.
2. Prove that a gastight door proves mass murder.
3. The delousing chambers had gastight doors, yet nobody claims they were for mass murder, so why should we think the morgue was a homicidal gas chamber, just because it had a gastight door?

Argument number three is a non sequitur(it doesn't follow), because the reason nobody claims the delousing chambers were for mass murder is because they were tiny cells, about the size of a large closet, whereas the "morgue" was the size of a small warehouse!

[SilenceIsALie]

Argument number three is a non sequitur(it doesn't follow), because the reason nobody claims the delousing chambers were for mass murder is because they were tiny cells, about the size of a large closet, whereas the "morgue" was the size of a small warehouse!

Actually, your argument against argument #3 is the non sequitur.

Have you ever heard of the 'gas vans', the 'White House' at Auschwitz or the alleged tiny room for a gas chamber at Sachausen?(among others)

All of those are absolutely tiny 'chambers' to be gassing people in and yet they still claim it to be so without skipping a beat.

I think the Sachausen house gas chamber was smaller than the delousing chambers at Auschwitz(maybe close to the same size), so if they could be used for homicidal gassing why not the delousing chambers?

The simple answer is that the Holocaust Industry simply doesn't want to discuss or put any attention on the issue of delousing, period.

Doing so would open the door to discover the full truth regarding the use of Zyklon B and the disease epidemics tearing through the camps and eventually unravel the entire extermination story.

It was the delousing chambers that originally got my attention and converted me from a 'believer' to a skeptic/revisionist. Of course the Holocaust Industry does not want that.

Better to try to ignore or down-play the delousing chambers completely than draw unnecessary attention to that stuff by claiming people were killed in them too.

The idea that they don't claim homicidal uses for the delousing chambers simply because they are small does NOT follow with the many other small buildings and vehicles they have no problem claiming mass-murder in.

Avoidance of the entire delousing issue is the most likely reason, not because they were small.

[ginger]

Hans – in your response to SKcz inquiry above - about immediate killing/liquidation - you wrote:

“It means exactly what it says: immeadiate killing. By what method, I did leave open in the posting, because I was discussing policy. The policy was not bound to a killing method and does not suggest any killing method.”

You did repeat the usual explanation, that trained SS dropped Zyklon B into the gas chamber using a hole in the roof. But the science, as usual, is missing. You should inquire more into how the Zyklon-B could be so deadly.

Adequate proof of the policy is inextricably bound to the killing method. The gas chambers should have certain design features that turned Zyklon B pellets into gas so deadly that people were immediately killed. Otherwise these are just buildings.

I would recommend Frederich Paul Berg’s essay on "Zyklon-B and the German Delousing Chambers" at http://www.nazigassings.com/zyklondelousing.html It is easy to understand.

[Dresden]

SKcz said:

"Before my admission that leichenkeller 1 was/or was planned to be use also as a gas chamber I need to see solved door issue. I am waiting for Hans or you to tell me how you know that door was installed in leichenkeller 1"

So, if it could be proven that leichenkeller 1 had a gastight door you would "admit" that it "was/or was planned to be used also as a gas chamber"?.....of course you wouldn't(and neither would I), because you contradict yourself in the next breath when you say:

"Maybe it looks like an unimportant issue because gas tight door is not proof of homicidal gas chamber"

"I challenge you to demonstrate why my (actually not mine) argument fails as you claimed"

The only way to do that would be to repeat myself.....so, here goes.....you said:

"Show me.....how gas tight door prove homicidal gas chamber BECAUSE gas tight doors were in delousing chambers as well AND nobody claims that homicidal gassing took place there"

The REASON nobody claims the delousing chambers were homicidal gas chambers, is BECAUSE they were tiny cells, the size of a closet, whereas, the "morgue" was the size of a small warehouse, perfectly suitable for mass murder.
Your argument is a NON SEQUITUR!

[SKcz]

SKcz said:

"were are sure that gas tight doors were installed in delousing chamber so nobody denies it"

Right! Nobody denies that there were gastight doors on the delousing chambers.....nor do they deny that they were GAS CHAMBERS.

"But are we sure abou that in leichenkeller 1?"

I don't know; nor does it have anything to do with the fact that your argument(the one I'm addressing) is a non sequitur.

"Here is what you have missed in your quote of my comment (why?):

"Show me how you know that basement was euqipped with gas tight door"

No, I didn't miss it; it's a separate argument.....you see, there are three separate arguments here, to wit:

1. Prove that the morgue had a gastight door.
2. Prove that a gastight door proves mass murder.
3. The delousing chambers had gastight doors, yet nobody claims they were for mass murder, so why should we think the morgue was a homicidal gas chamber, just because it had a gastight door?

Sorry, I am completely lost to what are you trying to tell, please, formulate it better.

Argument number three is a non sequitur(it doesn't follow), because the reason nobody claims the delousing chambers were for mass murder is because they were tiny cells, about the size of a large closet, whereas the "morgue" was the size of a small warehouse!

This is completely wrong and refuted by "facts" from holocaust narrative, delousing wing (Gaskammer) of BW 5a and 5b has some 120m² according to plan, for example, alleged gas chambers in Krema IV-V have total area of 240m² according to Pressac, the biggest has around 100m², for the two smaller ones we have only some 140m². According to Pressac again, there was also fourth gas chamber with total area of 13m² used for gassing of small transports. Your argument is thus wrong and I proved that area of room is not the reason, the reason why nobody claimed that gassing took place in delousing block of BW 5a and 5b is not that rooms were smaller (actually they were not smaller in comparison to Krematoria IV and V), there is of course much logical explanation. These installations were very visible and visited by thousands of prisoners for hygienic purposes, it will be impossible to claim homicidal gassing there with so many peoples around who could see these buildings from outside/inside, also it would be absurd to spread nonsense about secrecy when propably everybody knew that building serves for delousing gassings with documents mentioning it, plans and etc.. Finally, you missed that big reason is absence of ovens and cremation facility in delousing buildings and again, story would be impossible to spread and propably even the most primitive human on the world would not believe that milion/s of peoples can simply disapper in delousing blocks placed almost in the centre of the camp in front of the thousands of inmates which wandered freely around and inside.

On the other hand, krematoria were isolated and only small number of prisoners (especially compared to Delousing installations) visited this place and especially inside, propably only those who worked here, and you cannot see what is going on inside, you have also cremation installation installed inside, so to choose this place as a place for extermination story is propably the most logical if I can use these words. And if I remember it correctly, prisoners working there lived in different place and not in inmate barracks, so they can spread lies more easily than in the case of delousing block which was accessed by thousands of prisoners living in the camp so they knew what was going on there.

Using wrong logic of your argument, they (liars) should choose inmates barracks as a place for gassings if your argument is based on argument that area of room was the reason for where to claim that gassing took place.

SKcz said:

"Before my admission that leichenkeller 1 was/or was planned to be use also as a gas chamber I need to see solved door issue. I am waiting for Hans or you to tell me how you know that door was installed in leichenkeller 1"

So, if it could be proven that leichenkeller 1 had a gastight door you would "admit" that it "was/or was planned to be used also as a gas chamber"?.....of course you wouldn't(and neither would I), because you contradict yourself in the next breath when you say:

"Maybe it looks like an unimportant issue because gas tight door is not proof of homicidal gas chamber"

If it could be proven that gas tight door was actually installed, then I will admit that room was/or was planned as a gas chamber, but not homicidal as you trying to claim, maybe you missed it but term "gas chamber" is commonly used word for delousing chamber, I provided plan here and room is called gaskammer. The big reason is that I in my quote did not speak about homicidal gas chamber for peoples and I used word "homicidal" in second quote. In first quote I used term gas chamber what is commonly used for delousing chamber and I do not see what is wrong on admission in connection with gas chamber. In second quote, I used term homicidal gas chamber. In fact you made strawman when you diverted meaning of my quotes to make your case.

I challenge you again, this time to show where I contradict myself as you falsely claimed.

"I challenge you to demonstrate why my (actually not mine) argument fails as you claimed"

The only way to do that would be to repeat myself.....so, here goes.....you said:

"Show me.....how gas tight door prove homicidal gas chamber BECAUSE gas tight doors were in delousing chambers as well AND nobody claims that homicidal gassing took place there"

The REASON nobody claims the delousing chambers were homicidal gas chambers, is BECAUSE they were tiny cells, the size of a closet, whereas, the "morgue" was the size of a small warehouse, perfectly suitable for mass murder.
Your argument is a NON SEQUITUR!"

This has been refuted above.

[Occam's Razor]

Steve F wrote:
Argument number three is a non sequitur(it doesn't follow), because the reason nobody claims the delousing chambers were for mass murder is because they were tiny cells, about the size of a large closet, whereas the "morgue" was the size of a small warehouse!

and

Steve F wrote:
The REASON nobody claims the delousing chambers were homicidal gas chambers, is BECAUSE they were tiny cells, the size of a closet, whereas, the "morgue" was the size of a small warehouse, perfectly suitable for mass murder.
Your argument is a NON SEQUITUR!

That's not true.

Take a look the links Skcz provided in his earlier post:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/page055.shtml
and
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/image_files/Page056.jpe

These are the plans for Bw 5a and 5b in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Bw is short for Bauwerk and means building. Like Krema II and III these buildings are mirror buidlings. They still exist, they are right in the middle of the camp, are one of the few remaining brick buildings, are more or less intact, and these are the buildings where Rudolf took samples of a delousing chamber. These are also the buildings from the famous photos with Rudolf in front of walls with blue staining (both inside and outside). (There are other delousing chambers with blue staining, but these are probably the most famous ones).

Now take a look at the plans. The gas chamber has a dimension of 10.90 x 9.70 meters. That's 105.73 sqm. Large enough to gas several hundred persons. I think we can be sure that these gas chambers had gas-tight doors. And note that the plan explicitly says Gaskammer. Yet no one has ever claimed that these buildings were used for homicidal purposes! Well, except for Bild-Zeitung and Benjamin Netanyahu. But no eyewitnesses and not a single historian. Bw 5a and 5b are perfect examples of textbook-delousing facilities with dirty side / clean side, shower room and delousing gas chamber.

I assume you have the Degesch-Kreislaufkammern like those in Dachau in mind. They were indeed rather small. But there were gas chambers (for delousing) in all sizes. The idea that delousing gas chambers were always very small is definitely wrong. There were probably much larger delousing gas chambers than the ones in Bw 5a and 5b.