SKcz wrote:The rest of your comment is in the same language, what exactly means "selection of unfit for immediate killing/liquidation" and for what they selected these peoples as you claim in your opening comment?
Your answer will clarify if you claimed or did not claimed anything about gas chambers.
It means exactly what it says: immeadiate killing. By what method, I did leave open in the posting, because I was discussing policy. The policy was not bound to a killing method and does not suggest any killing method.
Can you clarify your comment please, what killing method you meant for alleged "immediate killing of selected peoples unfit for work?"
Hans wrote: SKcz wrote:
This is not true, you showed morgue of krema II as proven by this construction (one of the many) plan, for example herehttp://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... sement.jpg
"L-Keller" means morgue, room for storing of dead bodies.
Where is your proof for your claim that this room is a gas chamber?
The basement was equipped with a gas tight door and was designated as gassing cellar, which demonstrates that the basement was a gas chamber and rebutts your claim it was an ordinary morgue. Testimonial evidence of SS personell like Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höß, camp leader Hans Aumeier, SS officer Josef Erber or SS private Pery Broad shows that it was used to gas people.
Show me how you know that basement was euqipped with gas tight door and how gas tight door prove homicidal gas chamber because gas tight doors were in delousing chambers as well and nobody claims that homicidal gassing took place there.http://www.mazal.org/pressac/Images/046-01.jpg
Show me more about "gassing cellar" and how this prove homicidal gas chamber because delousing chambers are called "gaskammer" in plans and nobody claims that gassing took place there.http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e055.shtmlhttp://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... age056.jpe
Show here testimonial evidence.
Hans wrote:which demonstrates that the basement was a gas chamber and rebutts your claim it was an ordinary morgue.
Not true, I wrote this:"you showed morgue of krema II as proven by this construction (one of the many) plan, for example here
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... sement.jpg
"L-Keller" means morgue, room for storing of dead bodies."
Where I claimed that this morgue was "ordinary morgue" because I do not see it. Quote relevant passage.
SKcz wrote:Can you please quote your evidence that room is a gas chamber from your link?
"We have seen the extensive and diversified evidence for the existence of gas introduction openings in the basements of crematoria 2 and 3 in Auschwitz Birkenau:26 witness accounts, 5 aerial photos, 1 ground photo, 1 contemporary document and the ruin with its 3 potential and suitable gas openings
But even this is just the core of what points to the veracity of the story. Since gassing in the basements are only technically feasible via some kind of opening, any testimony on homicidal gassing in the crematoria 2 and 3, even when lacking details on specific gas introduction, is supplementary evidence as well.
This includes SS personell such as Erich Mußfeldt, Pery Broad, Gerhard Wiebeck, Sonderkommandos Dov Paisikovic, Milton Buki, Shlomo Dragon, and civilian engineer Kurt Prüfer.
Furthermore, substantial documentary evidence on the installation of a gassing facility in the basements joins here too, including references to gassing cellar, undressing room/cellar, gas tight doors, special treatment in the crematorium."http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _2071.html
You missed or ignored my notification, here is again:
Notification - Please, do not repeat your claims which you already made on this forum in the threads below, read them again to learn what will be repetition and what will be new. In the case you want to repeat yourself, you must first adress response on your claims in the threads below.
You showed again what has been adressed in mentioned threads, don´t ignore it please and do not repeat your claims, this will not aid discussion.
Present what is new or answer relevant passages in provided links, just continue where you stopped.
Hans wrote: SKcz wrote:
For example, image "Olere11.jpg" is wrong, here is scheme of the construction of krematoria IIhttp://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... uction.jpg
And here is the planhttp://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... rint-2.jpg
Picture is thus wrong and made by person who do not know how this building looked like and that is very bad because the other pictures are from the same author. Why did you use wrong picture of something what didn´t exist (at least to my knowledge, building on the drawed picture never existed) when you wanted to show a gas chamber?
In contrary, the drawing is a good sketch of the crematorium clearly made by somebody who knew it well. Olere has correctly identified the prisoner accomodation in the attic, the SS offices and furnace room with 15 furnaces on ground level and the gassing cellar in the basement.
He has rotated the cellar by 90°, but let aside that this is not even a serious error in which direction an underground room without windows (for orientation) extended, Olere knew
exactly that the correct position of the gassing basement with respect to the main building and therefore the rotation was implemented in order to show both the furnace room and SS office and the gassing cellar in one single drawing or in other words, to show more relevant information.
This is not true, I proved with construction plan and with scheme based on plan that drawing is wrong, don´t ignore me please.
You showed another image which is again wrong (rooms are wrong and something is flipped, something not, very confusing and wrong).http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg201/sc ... es=landing
In this case, can you please begin posting something relevant and not wrong sketches with free artistic license? The only thing which I see from these pictures is that author drawed them freely with own artistic license and are wrong when compared with reality and thus useless for showing gas chamber.
Do you have something better than wrong sketches?
SKcz wrote:Holes were discussed in the threads above, I am waiting for your reaction. Feel free to show alleged holes in this thread because one of the thread above is locked.
I already demonstrated the gas introduction openings in any of the threads and as far as I can remember you did not provide any challenging arguments. Check it out again if you are curious.
Not true I must say, check the threads again or show the holes here.
SKcz wrote:How long?
Up to 20 min (Höß, Endlösung der Judenfrage..., "Nach spätestens 20 Minuten regte sich keiner mehr.")
You chose 20 min and Rudolf Höß , ok, this means also that AHGCH was full of 2000 peoples (PS-3868) .This is not possible:
For later references, we want to keep in mind that, at 15°C and in the presence of lower atmospheric humidity, approximately 10% of the hydrogen cyanide used at Auschwitz has left the carrier material during the first five minutes, and approximately 50% after half an hour. At a temperature of 30°C, it can be expected that 15% would have been released within the first five minutes, and up to 60% after half an hour.
The Rudolf Report, based on data by R. Irmscher from Degesch, p. 183
Assuming high temperature of 30C, after your 20 min period, only some 45-50%% of HCN would left carrier if I assume that Zyklon B is spreaded in thin layer on not cold and wet ground in empty room with low relative humidity. This is not the case of alleged gas chamber. HCN allegedly used for gassing as you claim is not even able to leave carrier in these ideal conditions and in mentioned period.
In US gas chambers, the execution of one human can last up to 18 minutes. In early March 1999, however, this horror had already been forgotten. This time, the victim was a German national. Despite intervention by the German government, Walter LaGrand was executed in the state prison at Florence, Arizona. LaGrand’s death struggle against lethal cyanide gas lasted eighteen minutes. Thirty witnesses peered through a bulletproof window as the confessed, convicted murderer died horribly behind an armor-reinforced door.(4)
Publications in the United States reveal that executions lasting from 10 to 14 minutes are the rule, rather than the exception. Amnesty International calls them “botched executions.”(5-8)
4.Bettina Freitag, “Henker warten nicht,” New Yorker Staats-Zeitung, March 13-19, 1999, p. 3.
5.The News & Observer, Raleigh (NC), June 11, 1994, p. 14A (according to the prison warden, normally 10-14 min.).
6. C.T. Duffy, 88 Men and 2 Women, Doubleday, New York 1962, p. 101 (13-15 min.); C.T. Duffy was warden of San Quentin Prison for almost 12 years, during which time he ordered the execution of 88 men and 2 women, many of them executed in the local gas chamber.
7. Stephen Trombley, The Execution Protocol, Crown Publishers, New York 1992, p. 13 (approximately 10 minutes or more.); Amnesty International, Botched Executions, Fact Sheet December 1996, distributed by Amnesty International USA, 322 Eighth Avenue, New York, NY 10001-4808 (more than 7 min). See also more recently: Scott Christianson, The Last Gasp. The
Rise and Fall of the American Gas Chamber, University of California Press, Berkeley, CA, 2010.
The Rudolf Report, p. 13
In these ideal conditions in modern gas chamber constructed exactly for the purpose of execution of one human, this execution can last up to 18 min.
What you have said here is not possible and wrong. Also Hoess signed this:
So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyclon B, which was a crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber
depending upon climatic conditions.
Höss’s declaration, April 5, 1946 (Document PS-3868)http://www.nizkor.org//ftp.cgi/imt/nca/ ... 06-3868-ps
Case for Auschwitz, Pelt, p. 250; instead of Auschwitz he wrote "Auschwitz I"
Why did you choose 20 min.? Or the gas chamber in Auschwitz I (according to Pelt) was much faster than AHGCH in krema II?
By turning on the ventilation. For how long, I will have to check again especially in Sonderkommando accounts. I do not want to give you unreliable data after all!
How long, when, and how was possible to ventilate room using system in that room, I will wait for your data.
Notification - Please, bear in mind content of provided thread, do not repeat yourself.