Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912? / sonderkommandos

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Cloud
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Cloud » 4 years 8 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:04 pm)

saiz wrote:Original unretouched version is here: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... ng-pit.jpg

And how do you know that this is original and "unretouched?"



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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Hannover » 4 years 8 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:33 pm)

saiz:
Do you think these alleged 'corpses' are the result of being gassed at Auschwitz?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Rankweil » 4 years 8 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:08 pm)

Again, I'm not sure it's really helpful to our case to appear crass about dead people. They're dead. The quesiton is how they died, not whether they're dead.

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:04 am)

saiz wrote:I can see something on the back of the guy in the middle.


Yes, and if you clap your hands and believe you can see Tinkerbell the Fairy too.

saiz wrote:BTW are you trying to see red stripes on a B&W image?


lol

The question is one of contrast. If the story was that the SKs' uniform markings used white stripes or yellow stripes or pink stripes, one might try to argue that they wouldn't show up on light-colored mens' shirts, especially in a relatively overexposed image like the picture here. (They might show up all the more, mind you, on dark trousers.)

But no, the stripe/crosses were in red, a color that gives a strong contrast against white of course, but also against the various shades of gray, blue and black that are typically used for men's trousers and jackets. The natural choice in this context for clear, unambiguous visibility at a distance. And as Eisenschmidt tells us, the markings were done specifically "with oil paint so they’d last and not fade." Markings, in other words, that were meant to be seen, and not just imagined.

Image

Click to enlarge, :wink: .


p.s. Rankweil, true enough, one doesn't want to be crass. On the other hand, orthodox propaganda really does contain much that is genuinely ridiculous/laughable/absurd, and revisionists should not be intimidated by the industry's techniques of emotional blackmail from pointing that out whenever necessary. The innocent dead (whether from typhus or other causes) of "the holocaust" are every bit as worthy of our memory and respect as the innocent dead of Leningrad or Dresden or Hiroshima, but no more. And it is no way of respecting the dead on any side of a conflict to exploit their deaths and suffering as justification for later injustices against other innocent people--which is indeed what has been done in the case of the Jewish deportations. Revisionist skepticism and laughter, by exposing the absurdities, serve to expose the underlying lies. That's a good thing.
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Rankweil » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:08 am)

I think the bottom line with this pic is that a bunch of people are disposing of a bunch of dead people. Beyond that, there's no way of knowing where or when it was taken. It's too indistinct to determine anything else.

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:30 am)

Rankweil wrote:I think the bottom line with this pic is that a bunch of people are disposing of a bunch of dead people. Beyond that, there's no way of knowing where or when it was taken. It's too indistinct to determine anything else.


Actually, there is some reason to believe that the picture can indeed be located in Birkenau, outside Krema V. The key detail is the wire fence in the background and the arrangement of posts in it as seen from Krema V, which can be matched with the remaining fixtures in the remains of the camp today. Pressac made this argument in "Technique" (http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0422.shtml) and Mattogno, in "Open Air Incinerations," essentially confirms his findings:

Jean-Claude Pressac affirms that the photographs 277 and 278 were taken from the inside of the “northern gas chamber” of crematorium V, looking north-west. Leaving aside the reference to the “gas chamber,” Pressac’s localization is no doubt correct. The wooded background of the two photographs is compatible with the wooded area of the zone beyond the northern enclosure near crematorium V, called “fence 35” (Zaun 35), as is the distance between the enclosure and the camera. Another element compatible with the area mentioned is the concrete post visible on the left side of photograph 278 behind the enclosure between two supporting pillars of the fence. A Polish photograph of 1945 shows, in fact, a row of posts lined up behind fence 35. A site visit I did in 1991 has confirmed the presence of those posts.

Finally, in both of the full-size photographs one can see (top left) the rectangular outline of one of the wooden beams which supported the roof above
the entrance. They appear in the foreground in the Polish photograph taken of the ruins of crematorium V in 1945.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/88695032/Ausc ... o-Mattogno page 36


As Mattogno goes on to argue, however, the fact that the pictures can be localized in Birkenau, and that they thus may indeed show evidence of an outdoor mass cremation there, says nothing about the claims of "extermination" at the camp. All they would show, assuming that they are legimitate, is that the crematorium was out of order one day when there were bodies to be burned. In other words, essentially your point. Just making it clear that it probably is Birkenau.
Last edited by Kladderadatsch on Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:27 am)

saiz wrote:Members of the Sonderkommando were allowed to wear normal clothes.


BULLSHIT :)

Read the 'sonndercommando" members statements.

Jerzy

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby saiz » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:01 am)

Cloud wrote:
saiz wrote:Original unretouched version is here: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... ng-pit.jpg

And how do you know that this is original and "unretouched?"

This article describes all versions, when and where they appeared and whether and how they were retouched:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... n-air.html

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby saiz » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:04 am)

Jerzy Ulicki-Rek wrote:
saiz wrote:Members of the Sonderkommando were allowed to wear normal clothes.


BULLSHIT :)

Read the 'sonndercommando" members statements.

Jerzy

They were quoted above. Can you read?
You do not seem to be particularly strong at citing evidence in favor of your claims.

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:19 am)

saiz wrote:So, Kingfisher, do you have any source that says that the Sonderkommando members were NOT allowed to wear normal clothes?
I guess you don't.
So?

No. Did I say anywhere that I did? Neither did I say that your source was wrong. I said that standing alone it didn't constitute very good evidence, which is a big and important difference. I don't know the answer. That's why I asked

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby saiz » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:27 am)

Kingfisher wrote:
saiz wrote:So, Kingfisher, do you have any source that says that the Sonderkommando members were NOT allowed to wear normal clothes?
I guess you don't.
So?

No. Did I say anywhere that I did? Neither did I say that your source was wrong. I said that standing alone it didn't constitute very good evidence, which is a big and important difference. I don't know the answer. That's why I asked

Good. So we have evidence that they were allowed to wear normal clothes, and we do not have any evidence pointing to the contrary. Then we might as well accept that it is probably true, until we find opposing evidence. Why is this question such a big deal anyway?

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:38 am)

saiz wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:
saiz wrote:So, Kingfisher, do you have any source that says that the Sonderkommando members were NOT allowed to wear normal clothes?
I guess you don't.
So?

No. Did I say anywhere that I did? Neither did I say that your source was wrong. I said that standing alone it didn't constitute very good evidence, which is a big and important difference. I don't know the answer. That's why I asked

Good. So we have evidence that they were allowed to wear normal clothes, and we do not have any evidence pointing to the contrary. Then we might as well accept that it is probably true, until we find opposing evidence. Why is this question such a big deal anyway?

Because the men in the photo are not wearing concentration camp uniforms. A priori this suggests they are not prisoners. Alternatively, if they are prisoners it suggests that they are not doing anything that the Germans wanted to hide.

I agree we can see something on the shirt of the hatless man. It could be a painted cross. It could be braces (suspenders in American!)

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Hektor » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:56 am)

saiz wrote:Maybe it's worth including here the Ghost Adventures photo along with the Auschwitz photo, with the obvious signs of editing on the Ghost Adventures version:
Image
As described in the
http://hungarianskeptics.blogspot.hu/20 ... ed-by.html, the rectangles with identical colors indicate identical areas in the photos.
This definitively proves that the Auschwitz photo is the original, and the photo shown in Ghost Adventures is an edited version of the Auschwitz photo, having nothing to do at all with any train accident in Ohio or anywhere. Thus, the question of this topic is finally decided.
No it doesn't. All that is proven is that there is additional, different editing on the Ghost Adventures one. I think this picture and it's siblings have been debunked often enough.

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:03 am)

saiz wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:
saiz wrote:So, Kingfisher, do you have any source that says that the Sonderkommando members were NOT allowed to wear normal clothes?
I guess you don't.
So?

No. Did I say anywhere that I did? Neither did I say that your source was wrong. I said that standing alone it didn't constitute very good evidence, which is a big and important difference. I don't know the answer. That's why I asked

Good. So we have evidence that they were allowed to wear normal clothes, and we do not have any evidence pointing to the contrary. Then we might as well accept that it is probably true, until we find opposing evidence. Why is this question such a big deal anyway?


I suppose it would depend on what you mean by "normal."

In the SK testimony I quoted from Greif's book above, the three men are all agreed that they were allowed to wear "normal" or "civilian" clothing, but it is clear from the context that what they mean by this is that they were not required to wear the regulation striped uniforms assigned to other prisoners. However, all three are also in agreement that their "normal" or "civilian" clothing had to be clearly marked, in red, with stripes and crosses, such that they would be identifiable as members of the SK.

How "normal" is it really to have a large cross painted with red oil colors on the back of one's shirt? (Why, it's perfectly normal for Jews! :lol:)

As for why the question is "such a big deal," I'm not sure it is one. It's just yet another interesting (though of itself, no doubt, inconclusive) case of self-contradiction within the orthodox holocaust story. We are presented with a picture allegedly depicting members of the Auschwitz Sonderkommando burning corpses, and yet the clothing that they are wearing clearly does not match what we should expect to find (stripes and crosses on trousers and shirts) if the later testimony of those Sonderkommando men is to be believed.

That doesn't of itself "disprove" either the validity of the picture or of the Sonderkommando testimony. For all we know, there may be some reasonable explanation for the anomaly.

On the other hand, however, the anomaly must indeed be explained, convincingly, before anyone can be required to accept the two strands of evidence (testimony, picture) together as mutually confirming. They clearly contradict one another in fact, so while one or the other may be true, both cannot (though both can be false).

I don't think the "Case for Auschwitz" is hanging in the balance, exactly. But it's interesting. Revisionism confronts the orthodox evidence with itself, and once again it proves self-contradictory or otherwise inconclusive. When that keeps happening over and over, saiz, people start to wonder.
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Moderator » 4 years 8 months ago (Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:17 am)

saiz:
You were asked if you believe the alleged corpses in the picture were gassed, what is your reply?
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