Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912? / sonderkommandos

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Rankweil
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Rankweil » 4 years 6 months ago (Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:03 pm)

So you think some drudge at the Travel Channel just grabbed the image to use because he couldn't find anything better? I'm suspicious.

Is this Hungarian site an exterminationist site? If so, then I'm still suspicious. They have alot to lose.



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Jerzy Ulicki-Rek
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 4 years 6 months ago (Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:11 am)

I do have few more "original" pictures in my collection: :lol:

Image


Image

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Last edited by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kingfisher
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 6 months ago (Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:19 pm)

A good case appears to be made that the original, untouched, version of the photo could well be genuine, but that it proves only that bodies were burned.

I am -- slightly -- puzzled by the fact that the men are wearing normal workmen's clothing, including caps. This suggests that they may not be prisoners but civilian workers. This in turn suggests that those organising the burning had nothing to hide

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby saiz » 4 years 6 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:00 pm)

Members of the Sonderkommando were allowed to wear normal clothes.

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Kingfisher
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 6 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:19 pm)

saiz wrote:Members of the Sonderkommando were allowed to wear normal clothes.

I didn't know that. Where did you get it from? It certainly seem odd. If you accept the orthodox version of what they were doing THe SS should have been especially anxious that these particular guys didn't escape to talk about what they were up to.

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saiz
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby saiz » 4 years 6 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:14 pm)

This article says so: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mando.html
Most of Sonderkommando members were eventually killed.
Kingfisher wrote:
saiz wrote:Members of the Sonderkommando were allowed to wear normal clothes.

I didn't know that. Where did you get it from? It certainly seem odd. If you accept the orthodox version of what they were doing THe SS should have been especially anxious that these particular guys didn't escape to talk about what they were up to.

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Hannover
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:33 pm)

saiz wrote:This article says so: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mando.html
Most of Sonderkommando members were eventually killed.
Kingfisher wrote:
saiz wrote:Members of the Sonderkommando were allowed to wear normal clothes.

I didn't know that. Where did you get it from? It certainly seem odd. If you accept the orthodox version of what they were doing THe SS should have been especially anxious that these particular guys didn't escape to talk about what they were up to.

Why would you believe that link? It offers zero proof, just empty claims. How typical.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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saiz
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby saiz » 4 years 6 months ago (Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:07 pm)

Hannover wrote:
saiz wrote:This article says so: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mando.html
Most of Sonderkommando members were eventually killed.
Why would you believe that link? It offers zero proof, just empty claims. How typical.


The sources are cited and are easy to find. It is the book "We wept without tears" by Gideon Greif. It contains accounts from surviving Sonderkommando members. See book review at http://www.hagalil.com/shoah/holocaust/greif-0.htm

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:20 am)

saiz wrote:
Hannover wrote:
saiz wrote:This article says so: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... mando.html
Most of Sonderkommando members were eventually killed.
Why would you believe that link? It offers zero proof, just empty claims. How typical.


The sources are cited and are easy to find. It is the book "We wept without tears" by Gideon Greif. It contains accounts from surviving Sonderkommando members. See book review at http://www.hagalil.com/shoah/holocaust/greif-0.htm

Single , anecdotal source seventy years after the events. Who's to say it has any more value than the girl who lived with wolves, the Angel at the Fence or any of half or dozen or so accounts that even the mainstream have given up on? Even if we believe it, we are only told that they took the corpses out of the gas chamber. Maybe it wasn't a gas chamber at all. Maybe it was a morgue.

What I find most interesting is that the veneration of "Sonderkommandos" as victims is a recent phenomenon, and that earlier they were despised as collaborators, which is a more logical position if you accept the orthodox story.
[M]ost survivors, and to a certain extent the Jewish establishment in general, tend to regard the Sonderkommandos negatively. Even in the camps themselves the Sonderkommandos were regarded as unclean, almost as lepers. The writer Primo Levi described then as being "akin to collaborators." He said that their testimonies should not be given much credence, "since they had much to atone for and would naturally attempt to rehabilitate themselves at the expense of the truth."

Greif admits that most of the literature written after the war takes a similar attitude, and only fairly recently have these attitudes begun to change. This change is still very limited, Greif says: only two months ago a survivor he met while giving a lecture in Miami said to him, "The Sonderkommandos were the worst murderers around."

You gotta love the titles though. They're an art form in their own right.

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby saiz » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:44 am)

So, Kingfisher, do you have any source that says that the Sonderkommando members were NOT allowed to wear normal clothes?
I guess you don't.
So?

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kladderadatsch » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:42 am)

saiz wrote:Members of the Sonderkommando were allowed to wear normal clothes.


saiz wrote:
The sources are cited and are easy to find. It is the book "We wept without tears" by Gideon Greif. It contains accounts from surviving Sonderkommando members. See book review at
http://www.hagalil.com/shoah/holocaust/greif-0.htm


From We Wept Without Tears:

(1)
Did you have uniforms? What did you wear?
We wore ordinary clothes, civilian clothes.
Of what kind?
Regular clothes. We also took clothes from ‘‘Kanada.’’
Did the clothes carry a special marking?
Yes, they had a red cross on the back and front and our prisoner number.


(p.106 testimony of Josef Sackar ‘‘To Survive, so the Truth Would Come Out’’)


(2)
What clothes did you wear at work?
Abraham: We were ordinary civilian clothes, not striped prisoners’ clothes. The pants had a red stripe and there was a red cross on the back [presumably of the shirt? Kladderadatsch's note]. We wore blue caps. Everyone who worked in the Sonderkommando wore the same clothes. Those who worked outside the camp wore the striped clothes.

(p. 142 testimony of Abraham Dragon ‘‘Together—in Despair and in Hope’’)


(3)
What about clothing? What did you wear?
We usually wore ‘‘civilian’’ clothes with red stripes that made us easier to identify. The stripes were on both sides and on the trousers. The jacket had one stripe on the side, breadthwise. It was usually forbidden to sew on a stripe. We put the stripes on with oil paint so they’d last and not fade. The shirts also had a stripe like that—a red stripe on the front and a cross on the back. The Kapo and the foreman wanted to make themselves look ‘‘elegant’’ so they wore special clothes that were tailored to fit. Anyway, it was forbidden to wear one piece of clothing over another. We were allowed to wear only one layer of clothing. Once I found a young girl’s woolen dress. I wore it like a sweater and that’s how I didn’t freeze.

(p. 236 testimony of Eliezer Eisenschmidt ‘‘Thanks to One Polish Family . . .’’)


Let's assume for the sake of argument that these three passages are essentially true. After all, whatever the truth of their broader "testimony," it's hard to imagine why the SKs would lie about the markings on their clothing, and it's unlikely that they would misremember (together, in the same way) a detail of their lives that they lived with every day. So there you have it, a miniature example of Shermer and Co's "consilience of evidence."

The Sonderkommandos had painted red crosses on the backs of their shirts and either a cross or a stripe on the front (there isn't unanimity on this detail), red stripes on the trousers, and blue caps. And crucially, "Everyone who worked in the Sonderkommando wore the same clothes."

As a further inference, while the SK testimonies themselves don't elaborate on sizes, we can safely assume that the stripes and crosses mentioned would have been quite large--enough to be visible from some distance. According to the Eisenschmidt testimony, the markings were painted on to the clothing in question, so the availability of red fabric for sewing patches was not a limiting factor on size, and indeed Eisenschmidt relates that it was "usually forbidden" to use sewn patches instead. Further, Eisenschmidt notes that the SKs specifically used oil paint "so they'd [the stripes and crosses] last and not fade"--a detail which again reinforces the notion that being easily identifiable to camp guards was a matter of importance to SK members themselves. Lastly, while one could interpret Eisenschmidt's testimony as indicating that the paint was used on jackets and trousers but not on shirts (since the detail of the paint is mentioned in connection with the former, but not explicitly extended to the latter), that clearly would be ad hoc/special pleading. All the considerations that would apply to jackets and trousers would apply to shirts as well: red oil paint for visibility, durability and ease of application/simplicity.

Prominent, easily visible red stripes and crosses, top and bottom, back and front. Got that?

Image

Where are the stripes? Where are the crosses?
Der grosse Kladderadatsch war da.

-- D. Eckart Der Bolschewismus von Moses bis Lenin, "Er"

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Kingfisher
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:47 pm)

Also every one of them is wearing the cloth cap typical of workmen in that period. (One is holding something that might be the cap of the hatless man walking among the bodies.)

I find it unlikely that prisoners would have all managed to retain their caps (if ever any such were ever issued) in a prison environment with the constant danger of theft

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saiz
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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby saiz » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:52 pm)

I can see something on the back of the guy in the middle.
BTW are you trying to see red stripes on a B&W image?

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby Hannover » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:17 pm)

saiz:
How do you explain the spaghetti people?

Image

Thanks, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Train crash site:Dresden,Ohio 1912 ?

Postby saiz » 4 years 6 months ago (Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:57 pm)

Hannover wrote:saiz:
How do you explain the spaghetti people?

Thanks, Hannover

That is not the original photo but a manually retouched, enhanced version.
Original unretouched version is here: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... ng-pit.jpg
Zoom in on that part yourself.

It is too blurry to tell what is there. Probably several corpses on top of each other. The person that retouched the image misinterpreted it.


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