The 6 million number as a "guzma"

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blake121666
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The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby blake121666 » 7 years 7 months ago (Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:05 pm)

Karl Radl on his Semitic Controversies blog has an interesting article on the Jewish "6 million" usage at:

The Origin of the '6 Million Jews' Figure

That 6 million number has popped up way too frequently and in too varied contexts ever since the modern zionist project was started (late 19th century) and has always seemed suspicious to me for this reason. Karl claims that the 6 million number might be a "guzma" or, apparently from what I make of his article, a religious exaggeration of some sort. I of course knew nothing of guzma but kind of had this impression myself. Anyone else intrigued by this thesis should take a look at his article.

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Re: The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby Karl Radl » 7 years 7 months ago (Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:06 pm)

Its a speculative origin for the 6 million number in Judaism: I'd argue it is probably that because of the long heritage of the number and because it is a common enough rabbinical device that turns up frequently in the newspaper articles on the subject. For example Heddesheimer reproduces one from 1880/1881 that specifically talks about '600,000' jews in relation to the pogroms. 600,000 of course equals the number of jews suggested to have taken part in the Exodus and also the figure used to express a rabbinical exaggeration to make a point (a guzma).

As I suggested its probable origins lie in the secular jews of the West not understanding what a guzma was intended to be and took it as a statistic instead (hence the early claim about jewish population statistics but yet the number keeps being used in a lot of different contexts).

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Re: The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby widmann » 7 years 7 months ago (Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:18 am)

It is interesting to note, that in The Histories of Tacitus "six hundred thousand" is the number of Jewish besieged. Tacitus also writes, "That six hundred thousand Jews were killed in that war is stated by Cornelius and Suetonius." The editor notes however that Suetonius actually does not write of the number killed.

Tacitus (AD 56- AD117) likely wrote "The Histories" or "Historiae" in the year 105.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Tacitus/Histories/Fragments*.html

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Re: The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby widmann » 7 years 7 months ago (Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:18 pm)

Of further interest is the religious significance of 600,000 and 6,000,000.

See: http://www.ajudaica.com/blog/2012/01/600000-letters-in-the-torah/

for a difficult to comprehend explanation of 600,000 letters in the torah.

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Re: The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby Karl Radl » 7 years 7 months ago (Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:14 pm)

widmann wrote:Of further interest is the religious significance of 600,000 and 6,000,000.

See: http://www.ajudaica.com/blog/2012/01/600000-letters-in-the-torah/

for a difficult to comprehend explanation of 600,000 letters in the torah.


Don't see it having a relation to the 6,000,000 figure although it is another 600,000 although the superficially weird justification is from the Kabbala (I've seen numerous explanations that use the same basic ideas but in different contexts). Although I suspect the '600,000' letters in the Torah scroll is actually derived from the important figure of 600,000 Israelites in the Exodus according to the Mishnah (logic probably being each letter represents an act of creation and at the creation of Israel [= jews in Judaism who remember are viewed as fundamentally different from born non-jews in Judaism] there were 600,000).

widmann wrote:It is interesting to note, that in The Histories of Tacitus "six hundred thousand" is the number of Jewish besieged. Tacitus also writes, "That six hundred thousand Jews were killed in that war is stated by Cornelius and Suetonius." The editor notes however that Suetonius actually does not write of the number killed.

Tacitus (AD 56- AD117) likely wrote "The Histories" or "Historiae" in the year 105.


I didn't notice that one; in spite of just recently having written an article on Tacitus' views on the jews (doh!), but just checked it: you are right its in Tacitus Hist. 5:13.

Difficult to explain that one other than possibly the Oral Torah (of which the Mishnah is a central part) reflected a long held (oral) tradition of the 600,000 Israelites of the Exodus that are later mentioned by the Mishnah. The note on the text by OUP editor states that it was probably an inflation of Titus' but given that Tacitus also mentions that Titus was much enamored with the jewish princess Berenice (mentioned in both Tacitus' Histories and Annals): then you could also suggest that she suggested the number to him.

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Re: The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 2 months ago (Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:33 pm)

The 600,000 figure indeed holds much importance in Talmudic/Rabbinical circles.

Quote:

Each time the people are counted, the result is 600,000, more or less; in fact, the number 600,000 has become a descriptive term for the totality of the Jewish people. On a mystical level, the number 600,000 is identified with the number of souls comprising the Nation of Israel. The Talmud teaches that the arrival of the Messiah will transpire when all these souls are "complete."

The son of David will not come until all the souls in the body are complete. (Yevamot 62a)

In fact, the source goes even further, implying that the Nation of Israel is one body with 600,000 parts. That poses one obvious problem: virtually every generation from the Exodus onward outnumbers 600,000, yet this number is still used to describe the totality of the Jewish people.

Are we to assume that others -- men over 60 or under 20, or women -- were of no significance?

Even in the desert there were more than 600,000 people; there, the number 600,000 refers to the number of men between the ages of 20 and 60. All others were not included in the tally. Are we to assume that others -- men over 60 or under 20, or women -- were of no significance?

The Zohar carries this numeric parallel even further, stating that there are 600,000 letters in the Torah which are meant to parallel the 600,000 souls. (See Zohar Hadash Shir HaShirim 74d.)

Another mystical source, the Migaleh Amukot, expands on this idea:

Every one of Israel has for his soul one letter of the 600,000 letters of the Torah ... Indeed, Israel is an acronym for yesh shishim ribo otiyot laTorah, "there are 600,000 letters in the Torah." (Section 186)
.

SOURCE: aish.com

And also here....

According to the Kabbalists, there were 600,000 Jewish souls that stood at Sinai to receive the Torah. They comprise the "Body" of the unified Jewish People. Together they represented the complete creation of Mankind (before the sin) by God on the sixth day of Creation.

You ask: What about today and the millions of Jews that live today in the world? How do the numbers fit?

The answer is that each Jew has a Jewish soul, but not necessarily an entire soul of someone who stood at Sinai. We each have at least part of one of the the souls of the people there, and possibly various parts of different people who stood at Sinai. Pieces of souls. However, the pieces that we have were given to us by God in order that we have a unique purpose in our lives.


SOURCE: asktherabbi.org

The question was raised by a poster how do we get from 600,000 to 6 million?

Sephirot or Sephiroth (ˈsɛfɪrɒθ/; Hebrew: סְפִירוֹת‎, pronunciation), meaning "enumerations", are the 10 attributes/emanations in Kabbalah, through which Ein Sof (The Infinite) reveals himself and continuously creates both the physical realm and the chain of higher metaphysical realms (Seder hishtalshelus). The term is alternatively transliterated into English as Sefirot/Sefiroth, singular Sephirah/Sefirah etc.

Alternative configurations of the sephirot are given by different schools in the historical development of Kabbalah, with each articulating different spiritual aspects. The tradition of enumerating 10 is stated in the Sefer Yetzirah, "Ten sephirot of nothingness, ten and not nine, ten and not eleven".


SOURCE: Wikipedia - Sephirot

600,000 Jewish souls X 10 Kabbalhistic emanations of God = The sacred 6 million figure.

That's my theory anyhoot.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby spaceboy » 7 years 2 months ago (Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:18 pm)

I found it kind of odd that according to this, the current Jewish population in Israel is 5,978,600 (about 6 million).

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html

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Re: The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 2 months ago (Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:31 pm)

spaceboy wrote:I found it kind of odd that according to this, the current Jewish population in Israel is 5,978,600 (about 6 million).

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html


And almost all of those 6 million are Ashkenazi (Eastern European/Khazarian) Jews.

Not doing badly for a people who were destroyed eh?

The irony.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


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Re: The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby truth » 7 years 2 months ago (Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:08 pm)

The number seems to may have to do with the Jewish prophecies. Twice 6 Million must die and a 3. WW must come and then their final Messiah Ben Joseph will appear. One Messiah, Ben David, is already always here - paving the way. The problem is not the prophecy but that history seems like a reflection of a self-fulfilling prophecy. These kind of people make and force history their own way, key posts at the world arena (their puppets), that combined with kabalistic numerology and secret practices amounts to what we have today. There seems to be an interest from the Chabad-Lubavitch sect to realize this dream of the chosen ones to rule and "enslave" (?) humanity. They seem to work closely together with the head of states in Israel.

The problem with their ideology is that it appears that they think that humanity is impure and the new messiah must be born through the bleeding of humanity not unlike a mother gives birth we must go through labor pain to purify so the Messiah comes. Obviously a very inhuman and heartless way to think about life and humanity. A scary bunch of people indeed http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history/Jewish_World_Today/Denominations/Chabad-Lubavitch.shtml

Wolfgang Eggert from Germany studied that sort of thing in Detail. His books are hard to get.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn8wunRxl2Q
Only in German available. His work should be translated and discussed. Very interesting.
Here more about the possible dangers we face.
Quote, "The subject of an elitist apocalyptic Internationale has not yet been fully researched by historians. We consider it important for historians to attend to this issue and above all to include this subject in high school and university education."
http://www.apocalypse-no.net/en/
Poor humanity! These kind of people seem sick and totally out of their mind.

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Re: The 6 million number as a "guzma"

Postby Armor105 » 7 years 2 months ago (Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:05 pm)

truth wrote:There seems to be an interest from the Chabad-Lubavitch sect to realize this dream of the chosen ones to rule and "enslave" (?) humanity. They seem to work closely together with the head of states in Israel.


See: The Noahide Laws
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.



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