Coke usage at Auschwitz

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Wings
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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 7 years 3 months ago (Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:26 pm)

Pardon me...I was also inadvertently regarding the many tales of 'dead bodys' being Burned by themselves with no accelerents or use of Crematory Retorts...claims of Bodys being stacked up and burning ouyt of Doors, burning into super fine 'ashes' merely from their own fat, etc.

Sure, an actually Obese corpse ( howmany grossly 'Obese' people were common anywhere in the 1930s or early to mid 1940s? besides, very few? And, how many do we suppose were represented in the 'Holocaust' claims? None are known in any images, etc ) would add 'fat' - which would volatilize and combust as decomposing gases, and would contribute slightly to the Crematory combustion process, but, an Obese Corps is also a much thicker section, and, the Fat would not be burning all at once, and, not to where it would somehow get the cremation done any faster...nor would the fat aid in the fire's consuming of the corpse, the melting Fat would be carying heat away from the Corpse, anbd, fat would melt and percolate outward and volatalize and burn off as a Gas, outside of the corpse itself, contributing very little, or only contributing at a low oerder, to the overall temperature.


Once all the Fat was gone, the volume and section of the Corpse would be on par with or still a little larger than an ordinary non-Obese person's corpse.

It would not in any way be "like" throwing Litres or whatever of Kerosene on to a Fire.

Try this then please, USE A BLOWTORCH and let us know how well a four or five inch thick 'Marbled' raw Beef Roast ends up 'turning into fine ash'...and, how long it takes...let us know how the Fat is just like throwing a pint of Kerosene onto a Fire ( which it will not be, not be like that at all...)

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 3 months ago (Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:49 am)

Wings wrote:It would not in any way be "like" throwing Litres or whatever of Kerosene on to a Fire.

I think I'll believe a cremation expert before I believe you. Your blowtorch experiment is completely irrelevant.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 7 years 3 months ago (Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:06 am)

Toshiro wrote:
Wings wrote:It would not in any way be "like" throwing Litres or whatever of Kerosene on to a Fire.

I think I'll believe a cremation expert before I believe you. Your blowtorch experiment is completely irrelevant.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Creox » 7 years 3 months ago (Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:04 am)

Toshiro wrote:
Wings wrote:It would not in any way be "like" throwing Litres or whatever of Kerosene on to a Fire.

I think I'll believe a cremation expert before I believe you. Your blowtorch experiment is completely irrelevant.

Meant friendly...



well, the cremation expert quote you provided talks about the corpse while it is in the oven, I'm assuming for the entire process? I would think you'd have to take the corpse out after it started to burn and place it on the floor. Would it keep burning to ash? Perhaps I'm missing something but it sounds like the reports of witnesses stated this would be the case. The corpses would just burn on their own once ignited?

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 3 months ago (Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:46 pm)

It would still keep burning, but the majority of the heat would escape, so the cremation process would slow down. It would definitely not burn to ash, and neither would it burn to ash in the oven, because you would still need external fuel. But the point is, for obese corpses, you need to use less external fuel and therefore less heat, because otherwise the fat will overheat and damage the oven (in the best case scenario), or burn the entire crematorium down (in the worst case scenario), which has happened, by the way.

The witnesses are full of crap.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Creox » 7 years 3 months ago (Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:05 pm)

Toshiro wrote:It would still keep burning, but the majority of the heat would escape, so the cremation process would slow down. It would definitely not burn to ash, and neither would it burn to ash in the oven, because you would still need external fuel. But the point is, for obese corpses, you need to use less external fuel and therefore less heat, because otherwise the fat will overheat and damage the oven (in the best case scenario), or burn the entire crematorium down (in the worst case scenario), which has happened, by the way.

The witnesses are full of crap.




Ahh..thanks for the clarification. I might give the witnesses more than a second thought but the percentage of camp inmates who were obese(or mummified :D ) would be infinitesimal.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 7 years 3 months ago (Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:36 pm)

Toshiro wrote:It would still keep burning, but the majority of the heat would escape, so the cremation process would slow down. It would definitely not burn to ash, and neither would it burn to ash in the oven, because you would still need external fuel. But the point is, for obese corpses, you need to use less external fuel and therefore less heat, because otherwise the fat will overheat and damage the oven (in the best case scenario), or burn the entire crematorium down (in the worst case scenario), which has happened, by the way.

The witnesses are full of crap.



Toshiro,


Cremation Retorts run around 1,600 Degrees Farenheit or so...and an obese cadaver is not going to cause the Retort to be damaged from the Calories which the Fat contains.


Total Calories needed to incinerate or Creamate a cadaver make any Fat content of the Cadaver merely incidental or meaningless...the fat will not contribute enough Calories to have any effect worth mentioning for fuel savings.

In times passed, Crematory Retorts were run by skilled and trained operatives who would regulate the Temperature by managing the incoming Gas Volume, incoming Air Volume, or, by managing the Coke Fire and harmonizing combustion with incoming Air volume and exhaust Gasses egress in order to control or manage the production of Heat, where, a fat cadaver or a thin one would not matter, since the operative would be managing the Retoprt/Kiln/Crematory Oven in a way which continualy takes into account, the conditions, and, maintains the plateau Temperature which is desired.

The energy the Fat would contribute would effect only the period in which the fat itself was being consumed, which would be veryt early on in the process, as such fat is typically just under the Skin...once the Fat is gone, the cadaver would assume the same volume or characteristics as a normal average Cadaver, and, would go on from there, using the same amount of energy to be consumed, as any other norma, average cadaver would.

Present day Crematory Ovens would have automatic Temerature and 'ramp' features, or even Gas content measuring devices which manage the Overn automatically for the desired Temperature to be reached on some schedule, and, to be held at a plateau, and to then manage the down-cooling 'ramp' cycle phase. No experienced operative in History was ever going to allow 'run away' Kilns or Crematory Retorts, unless they were without experience or knowledge on how to run or manage one. in which case, the content of the Kiln or Crematory Retort would not matter anyway, since one can have a 'run away' Temperature climb by mis-managing the fuel and air inflow and exhaust gas outflow.

Kilns or Crematory Retorts are mande of refractory materials, where it is simply not possible for them to 'burn down' as if they were a Wooden Shack or something.


No one ever pulled or pulls partially consumed cadavers out of on-going Crematory processes...you can not open the Door of a 1,600 Degree Farenheit Kiln or Oven without thermal shock to the Refractory Brick, and, without destroying the Brick from the Thermal Shock...or without serious injury or death to anyone opening such a Door while the Crematory Retort is in operation and at Temperature.

Such Ovens are never opend until they are "cool" or cool enough to allow personel to stand in front of their open Door, where, typically, an operative then rakes out the refractory human or other animal remains, and prepares the Oven or Kiln for the next Cremation, if one is scheduled.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 3 months ago (Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:42 am)

Please consult this publication about cremating obese cadavers.

Please look at this news report as well.

It's no surprise why obese corpses could damage a crematorium oven and why special care has to be taken.

There is also no specific time where only fat is consumed. When fat starts to burn, it drizzles over the body and helps burn the rest of the cadaver.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 7 years 3 months ago (Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:45 pm)

Toshiro wrote:Please consult this publication about cremating obese cadavers.

Please look at this news report as well.

It's no surprise why obese corpses could damage a crematorium oven and why special care has to be taken.

There is also no specific time where only fat is consumed. When fat starts to burn, it drizzles over the body and helps burn the rest of the cadaver.



I have probably said it nine times by now, and I will say it again -

Camp ( or any other ) Cremation Ovens ( of the day ) especially if run on Coke ( where the operation would require constant monitoring ) instead of Natural Gas ( where less monitoring would be necessary ), were run, operated or managed by trained personel, and, this means, they would regulate any Cremation process according to the particulars ( volume, fat content ) of the Cadaver, and, or, be actually and literally Managing the Kiln/Oven during the process, which had to be done regardless, so as to continually harmonize fuel combustion, fuel consumption, Air to Fuel ratio and regulating the outflow or egress of exhaust Gasses so as to manage the process properly, not waste fuel, get to the temperature plateau appropriately, hold it "there" for an appropriate time according to the contents, and, to have a proper ramping 'down' of cooling phase, and, to avoid a 'run away' Kiln which would climb too high in temperature ( which it can do even if empty, if not managed correctly )...and to avoid wasting ful on a mis-managed process which would never get up to Heat at all, no matter how much fuel it used up.

The documents you are quoting/referenceing are present day, and, presume an idiot or an operative with no training and no understanding and no common sense and no experience of how to operate a Kiln or Crematory Retort, so sure, on those documents, there is strong emphasis which is totally redundant to anyone who actually knows how to manage a Crematory Retort or Kiln or kindred Retprt, to begin with.

Each Cremation would have been managed by a skilled operative, even if now a days, it is automated or semi automated and personal are merely low wage personel with little knowledge or training or intelligence or skill needed.

I have no idea why you are so hung up on this whole thing of outrageously "Obese" cadavers in the first place, since none are known or suggested by anyone, to have even existed in the context of the Crema at any of the containment or Work Camps.

The Crema we see in photographs from the various Camps would not even admit an obscenely Obese cadaver to fit in anyway...the Crema were designed to oblige no more than someone of moderately larger width or girth than average.


Why are you so hung up on this thing of how fat people would burn if you just hold a Match to them?

Or how one can just stack up even normal people out of doors and their fat is enough to consume them entirely once lit with a Match, so nothing remains but "dust"?


Again, try it yourself with some really fatty meat, see how well it burns when you hold a Match to it...see if you can even get it to be on fire at all, by any means...if not satisfied, use a Blow Torch...use an Oxy Acetylene Torch which will give you more than twice the HEAT which the Crema produced, let us know how well the Meat burns with the Oxy-Acetylene Torch on it, let us know how well it keeps burning after you withdraw the Torch.


Yes, any Wood Fired, Coal Fired, Coke Fired, Kerosene fired, Natural Gas or Propane Fired Kiln or Crematory Oven can 'over run' or 'run away' ( to some extent or other ) or can get too hot if is not being regulated properly, even with NO Cadaver in it, even with nothing in it - the Heat to which it is operated - the Heat it reaches - depends on how it is regulated...depends on how the operator operates it, hence for the fifteen time by now, Crema, just as any Kiln, were Historically managed by trained, skilled operatives, who's job it was, to bring the Crema/Kiln up to Heat in a proper way, and not too fast, not too slow...to hold it to the Plateau temperature...to defer to the contents as appropriate for whatever caloric content they may represent, to permit 'Heat Work' to occur at an appropriate rate according to the particulars of the contents, and, then, to manage a Cooling phase which would take however long it takes, according to the design and construction of the Kiln, Retort, Oven.

Similarly, if run incompetentlly, Crema or Kilns will use enormous amounts of Fuel, even if having entirely combustable contents, and, never get up to Temperature at all...regardless of the contents, even if contents were nothing BUT Buckets of 'Fat'.

A Grease or Fat Fire ( even if one can get one to occur in an overheated Frying Pan ) will not Burn on it's own with much effeciency with no external Heat Source, it will not create enough heat to consume a Cadaver, and, if not provided with an external Heat Source AND enough Oxygen, it will not even Burn at all, or will burn very cool and with enormous smoke, and will be in what is called a 'Reduction' mode.

A Crema or KIln in which combustable material is 'burning' will change the available Oxygen and Gasses in the Crema/Kiln and instantly begin colling itself, unless the operative regulates it to have more forced incoming Air supply, and, to allow mnore outgoing Exhaust Gasses...and, if the latter is choked, the Heat will fall...

Hence, a 'run away' Crema from a "fat" Cadaver would have to occur from an incompetent operative, and would not happen on it's own if the Crema were started up and merely neglected...the additional combustion by-products would cool the interior of the Crema, not add Heat to it.

Hence, if wishing to Cremate an obscenely Obese Cadaver, one would merely allow a little longer ramping "up" phase, the Fat would liquify, gassify and, the Gas the Fat decomposes in to would Burn, and, depending on how one is regulating the primary Fuel Source, and, regulating the incoming Air, and, regulating the egress of exhaust gasses, one can have it going to whatever Temperature one wants, to then continue on as one pleases, to proceed with the rest of the Cremation process in a normal way, and, none of this presents any real problem or danger of the Oven going into a 'Run Away' mode.

Since Crema for the last twenty five or thirty years or whatever have become automated, the old kinds of training and skills have become forgotten or are not longer required, and, so now, documents such as you reference, representing what used to be common sense knowledge, have paragraphs emphacised for those operatives who do know nothing, who do not have any real training, and, who have no experience in anything but baby sitting an Automated or semi-Automated Crema/Kiln/Oven.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Wings » 7 years 3 months ago (Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:23 pm)

Another thing -

The fake images and fake stories about all the "Black Smoke" which used be billowing out 24 hours-a-day from the Chimneys of the Crema at the various Camps -


This represents a very 'cool' fire which is in a Reduction mode of combustion, and, which is below the Heat at which Carbon burns.

This is much too cool to cremate a cadaver or much of anything else.

Black or Dark Smoke is a 'cool' and ineffecient fire, a Fire which is in effect, 'choking' itself, and running below the burning Temperature of Carbon.


Add too much Fuel to a fire, and, it goes into a cooling mode and or into reduction.

Contained Fires such as Wood Stoves, Kilns, Crema, have to be properly regulated in order to acheive a desired plateau of Heat.


Anyone who has even learned to properly manage or regulate a Wood Stove, would understand this.


Urban Jews of the 1930s and 1940s, or urban anyone, who has no experience along these lines of even knowing how to manage a properly set up Wood or Coal Stove, will have no way to understand any of it, and, hence, the 'Stories', the 'Black Smoke' billowing out of Crema 24 hours a day, and so on...likely transfered from Coal Burning urban Fireplaces in Winter, badly run or badly managed or of terrible effeciency to begin with compared to an actual Coal Stove, would be all these people knew or had to go on, to claim later as being the conditions of the Crema.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby borjastick » 7 years 3 months ago (Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:35 am)

Good points Wings. As I mentioned in an earlier post I have a wood burner here at home. In the early phase of lighting and getting up to temperature, it smokes. Once up to temperature it either doesn't smoke at all or very little, but as you say it needs regulating with more or less venting and of course topping up with wood.

Now if we apply that to the claims of the witnessess saying they saw flames leaping ten feet out of the top of chimneys, it is complete nonsense. If you have flames coming out the top of a chimney it means you have a chimney fire. Very hot, very dangerous and difficult to extinguish as it is burning the unburnt carbon stuck to the chimney. It also roars loudly.

If thousands of corpses were burnt outside on pyres the smoke would be enormous and very visible from aircraft. If crematoria at auschwitz were at full tilt they wouldn't produce much smoke in the chimney stack but as the heat cooled at height it could well condense and return to smoke, particularly in cooler air temperatures. Therefore the need to keep the ovens at peak operating temperature was important for efficiency.

As for this fat burning argument I am a little perplexed. Anyone knows that if you cook a sausage on a bbq it produces fat which splashes onto the coals below. At which point it causes flash flames. More so if you prick the sausage. But it doesn't burn for long if the coals cool down. To measure fat in a living person we tend to use the body mass index. I am 72-74kg and five feet 10 inches tall. Slim and healthy and my BMI is about 23. I would guess the BMI of the average male in auschwitz was 20 at best and I don't remember seeing obese people in any pictures.
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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Toshiro » 7 years 3 months ago (Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:53 am)

Wings wrote:I have no idea why you are so hung up on this whole thing of outrageously "Obese" cadavers in the first place, since none are known or suggested by anyone, to have even existed in the context of the Crema at any of the containment or Work Camps.

That's the whole point, there were none. Since the story goes, fat from corpses was used as fuel to burn other corpses, instead of wood or coal. This is where the "bodies burnt on their own, so no extra fuel was needed" nonsense comes from. Now, since there were no obese corpses that have enough fat to actually be useful, it all boils down to being "bullshit.

Wings wrote:Why are you so hung up on this thing of how fat people would burn if you just hold a Match to them?

Never said such a thing. Don't spread misinformation about me.

Wings wrote:Or how one can just stack up even normal people out of doors and their fat is enough to consume them entirely once lit with a Match, so nothing remains but "dust"?

Never said such a thing either. Stop spreading misinformation and making bullshit claims about me.

Wings wrote:Again, try it yourself with some really fatty meat, see how well it burns when you hold a Match to it...see if you can even get it to be on fire at all, by any means...if not satisfied, use a Blow Torch...use an Oxy Acetylene Torch which will give you more than twice the HEAT which the Crema produced, let us know how well the Meat burns with the Oxy-Acetylene Torch on it, let us know how well it keeps burning after you withdraw the Torch.

Irrelevant to a cremation process.

Wings wrote:Yes, any Wood Fired, Coal Fired, Coke Fired, Kerosene fired, Natural Gas or Propane Fired Kiln or Crematory Oven can 'over run' or 'run away' ( to some extent or other ) or can get too hot if is not being regulated properly, even with NO Cadaver in it, even with nothing in it

Yes, and if you have an obese corpse in it, it will get too hot unless you go by a special procedure for cremating obese corpses, which is placing the corpse in an entirely cold chamber, so it's mostly done on Monday mornings, and then lowering the heat from what is normally needed for average corpses, because the missing heat will be compensated with the huge amounts of body fat.

Wings wrote:Similarly, if run incompetentlly, Crema or Kilns will use enormous amounts of Fuel, even if having entirely combustable contents, and, never get up to Temperature at all...regardless of the contents, even if contents were nothing BUT Buckets of 'Fat'.

If the contents were "buckets of fat", a relatively low temperature would be all it takes. With a huge heat, the oven would get damaged.

Wings wrote:A Crema or KIln in which combustable material is 'burning' will change the available Oxygen and Gasses in the Crema/Kiln and instantly begin colling itself, unless the operative regulates it to have more forced incoming Air supply, and, to allow mnore outgoing Exhaust Gasses...and, if the latter is choked, the Heat will fall...

But before it fails, the generated heat will damage everything from the air filters to the oven bricks, which may lead to the flames reaching out of the oven, and thus burning the entire crematorium down, instead of choking on its smoke.

Wings wrote:Hence, a 'run away' Crema from a "fat" Cadaver would have to occur from an incompetent operative, and would not happen on it's own if the Crema were started up and merely neglected...the additional combustion by-products would cool the interior of the Crema, not add Heat to it.

Yes, I see how generating more heat would cool the oven down.</sarcasm> It would add massive amounts of extra heat, possibly damaging the oven, and then if we're lucky, that is to say, the fire doesn't reach out, the smoke would choke it eventually, but not before the heat damaged the oven.

Wings wrote:Hence, if wishing to Cremate an obscenely Obese Cadaver, one would merely allow a little longer ramping "up" phase, the Fat would liquify, gassify and, the Gas the Fat decomposes in to would Burn, and, depending on how one is regulating the primary Fuel Source, and, regulating the incoming Air, and, regulating the egress of exhaust gasses, one can have it going to whatever Temperature one wants, to then continue on as one pleases, to proceed with the rest of the Cremation process in a normal way, and, none of this presents any real problem or danger of the Oven going into a 'Run Away' mode.

Now try cremating an obese cadaver as you would an average corpse, without the longer "ramping up" phase. You'd get fired (pun intended) for burning the place down. Please note that my original discussion with Roberto was regarding pit cremations, where the additional fat of obese corpses would be beneficial and not a threat under any circumstances.

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Re: Coke usage at Auschwitz

Postby Creox » 7 years 3 months ago (Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:13 am)

Toshiro

Please note that my original discussion with Roberto was regarding pit cremations, where the additional fat of obese corpses would be beneficial and not a threat under any circumstances.



The first time I watched Dean Irebodd's documentaries that highlighted the reason these alleged pit cremations were absurd, I was amazed. I had watched Schindler's List where they have that one iconic shot of the small mountain of bodies burning. I was horrified, disgusted etc but I never questioned it then. You had stacks of corpses piled over rail lines with about two feet of space underneath for a fire. Even if every one of the corpses was 1000 pounds of blubber you wouldn't even get the top 80% of the stack warm let alone cremated to ash. Imagine the amount of fuel, manpower etc just to maintain a fire of that sort to finally burn those bodies, if ever.
It's true, once you question these points you see how ridiculous they sound. Why I never did before is puzzling.


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